GUILTY NH - Spader trial underway for Cates Murder/child torture 04 Oct 2009

[IWannaKnow]

Originally Posted by amysmom

Spader had 8 arrests this year? Way to go court system!

Btw..Spader was adopted..Could this play a role in his twisted mind? I do not know but it goes way, way beyond that!

One of those articles I posted talked about that he was a good kid up until his Soph. (?) year, IIRC. Then, he did a big about-face. Kids that went to school with him stated he really changed, behavior, dress, etc. A different article said he was having great difficulties adjusting to the idea he was adopted. Wonder if that is when they broke the news to him?


http://www.boston.com/news/local/new...ransformation/
“He was totally normal,’’ said Jenna Christensen, a 17-year-old senior who had known Spader since middle school. “He was friendly. He was fun. He made jokes.’’

But around sophomore year, Spader’s image and personality changed. Instead of jeans and T-shirts, he wore all black. Instead of waving in the hallway and greeting classmates, he stayed silent beneath his headphones.

[amysmom]

Originally Posted by IWannaKnow

Yes, you are right. Autumn. DUH. Sorry. I've corrected it to prevent further confusion.

Don't worry about it..Most of us have done it many xs!

[amysmom]

Originally Posted by IWannaKnow

One of those articles I posted talked about that he was a good kid up until his Soph. (?) year, IIRC. Then, he did a big about-face. Kids that went to school with him stated he really changed, behavior, dress, etc. A different article said he was having great difficulties adjusting to the idea he was adopted. Wonder if that is when they broke the news to him?

Makes sense but I still believe he has numerous (severe) issues..It is possible tho this is what sent him over the edge.

ETA..This makes it sound like he has known for a long time?

He was often depressed, she said, struggling to accept the fact that he was adopted at a young age, and, at times, he cut himself.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/new...mation/?page=2

[amysmom]

This helps to explain Spader:

In high school, Spader and Kohler drifted apart. He was hanging out with youths outside school and would leave class abruptly. Others said Spader was prescribed medication for bipolar disorder and often refused to take it.

“When he didn’t take his meds, he got a little crazy,’’ said another former high school classmate, who asked to remain anonymous. “He would get angry about things and take it out on the wrong person.’’

That classmate and Spader both attended a class for students diagnosed with emotional disorders. She said he became erratic when he didn’t take his medication and when he used recreational drugs and was prone to angry outbursts and occasional fights.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/new...mation/?page=2

[absynthminded1]

Originally Posted by amysmom

bold by me

ITA with your POV! tho I am confused about Marks & his father's account of his behavior after the crime..It is very damaging..Does he not see that?

My guess is he is just a regular concerned father, honest to a fault. None of us know what we will disclose till we have a microphone shoved in our face.... The father basically painted his some as callous and emotionally disconnected with one careless brush stroke.

Originally Posted by amysmom

This helps to explain Spader:

In high school, Spader and Kohler drifted apart. He was hanging out with youths outside school and would leave class abruptly. Others said Spader was prescribed medication for bipolar disorder and often refused to take it.

“When he didn’t take his meds, he got a little crazy,’’ said another former high school classmate, who asked to remain anonymous. “He would get angry about things and take it out on the wrong person.’’

That classmate and Spader both attended a class for students diagnosed with emotional disorders. She said he became erratic when he didn’t take his medication and when he used recreational drugs and was prone to angry outbursts and occasional fights.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/new...mation/?page=2

He was surely a mess. Sometimes adopted kids don't feel like they have a place in their adopted family. Does he have siblings?

Spader probably went looking for fulfillment elsewhere and found his little group of misfits. He may have been the ringleader, but I believe he took great pride in belonging to something bigger than himself, and even greater pride in his ability to persuade the others to do his bidding.

This kid pretty much fits the Eric Harris mold, does he not? He should have been on psyche meds, his use of recreational drugs only exasperated his mental illness. My guess is he alienated himself and fell into a dark fantasy world, fueled by drugs and violent media/entertainment.

[IWannaKnow]

Don't think this has been posted:

A rebellious son becomes a father’s worst nightmare

http://www.boston.com/news/local/new...ses_heartache/

James Marks said:

"He said he has heard through his son’s friends that his son and Glover remained in the basement while the other two teens attacked the woman and her daughter. Prosecutors did not specify where Marks and Glover were during the attack, but said each of the four teens was armed with a deadly weapon and came to the home with the intent to kill. William Marks and Glover have been charged with burglary, conspiracy, and armed robbery.

James Marks said Spader was at the Markses’ home in Amherst Friday night and showed him a folding knife with a blade that was about 4 inches long. It was the first time he had seen Spader with a knife, he said, and he told him he should not have it.

The teens gathered at the Markses’ home again on Saturday night. The group included Spader, Glover, some young women, and William Marks and his girlfriend, according to the father. Spader, Glover, and the young women left at 8:30 p.m.

At 10 p.m., William left in his black 1993 Toyota to drive his girlfriend home to Milford, N.H. The father said he told his son to be back home in an hour.

When William did not return by 11 p.m., his father said, James Marks began sending him text messages - 15 over the next five hours - but did not hear back until 4:10 a.m., when his son told him he was on the way home. Authorities have said the attackers broke into the Cates home at about 4 a.m.

William Marks walked back into his father’s home in Amherst at 4:30 a.m. James Marks said he was sitting on the couch as his son walked by nonchalantly on the way to his room.

“He didn’t really say anything,’’ James Marks said. “I said, ‘Where have you been?’ He said, ‘Out.’ He didn’t seem upset or flustered or anything.’’"

[gxm]

Originally Posted by absynthminded1

This is most likely a classic example of, "One bad apple spoils the whole bunch."

Separately, I believe that only Spader, who is said to be the group's ring leader, would be capable of this type of crime. Without his influence and whatever group dynamic was created, I highly doubt the other three boys would do this or similar. (I would leave open the possibility the Gribble, who exhibits some antisocial behavioral tendencies, might have been dangerous, though many dark brooding young men never commit murder.)

That being said, it's pretty telling when the apparent meekest of the four, Marks, comes home after witnessing such carnage, and seems completely calm.

In Marks and Glover, it was probably a matter of looking to fit in with kids who normally wouldn't be seen even talking to them. Kids who feel like outsiders will go to any lengths for that sense of belonging to something.

ITA. Gribble could be a toss up. But it doesn't sound like Marks or Glover would have ever done something like this on their own. I'm also guessing that they are the ones talking since they haven't been charged with murder yet, it may be that their lawyers are trying to work out plea deals.

If Marks is ashamed and upset about the crime he took part in (as has been reported) then he may have been in shock when he came home. That may account for his cold demeanor.

Although I think they should be punished for their crime, there's a part of me that feels sorry for the young men Spader dragged into the abyss along with him. He certainly left a huge swath of pain and destruction. My heart goes out to his many victims.

[kgeaux]

Originally Posted by Boyz_Mum

How sad is it, that we can look at a crime and call it a "thrill kill" or a "sign of the times"?

I can't hold the media (news outlets, video games, internet, etc...), wholly responsible. I believe that some of the blame can be spread further. I don't believe that "parenting" is a problem, it's "bad parenting" that more concerns me.

I believe psychology (you can do anything you want to and you can't be spanked, scolded or otherwise, because you have a "condition") and "our" application, plays a huge part in these types of crimes.

I haven't seen results of a study, but I would almost bet my next year's earnings that a quarter of all crimes committed by people between the ages of 7-27 have been on some med/treatment for some psychological reason. I will venture further and say, I would almost bet my next year in earnings that half of the quarter of crimes are committed by people in this age group, have been diagnosed with ADHD or ADD, ODD, or some other "anti-social", "narcissistic" disorder, or bi-polar disorder.

ebbie, I do hope you know that I'm not arguing with your thoughts on the matter?

I feel that our society, the role of parenting, and our ideals are way off course. JMO.

So what you are saying is that the majority of crimes committed by 7-27 year olds have never been treated or medicated for any psychological reason? You are theorizing that the medicated/treated are responsible for 1/4 of the crimes committed, which would mean they are NOT responsible for 3/4's of the crimes committed by others in their age group.

Although you've stated that what you posted is just your opinion, I am curious about one thing. As an adult sufferer of ADD, I am VERY curious as to why you would catagorize ADD, OCD or ADHD sufferers as "anti-social" and "narcissistic." That seems to be a very negative opinion, and I'm wondering what on earth you've based it on?

Originally Posted by Fairy1

Thank you Boyz_Mum. But I really have to wonder why so many kids today are considered ADHD or ADD or ODD. This is a fairly new phenomenon and there must be an explanation. Then again, even if kids do suffer from these disorders, are they prone to violent, murderous acts? IDK, but it worries me.

I also have to say, and I know many will not care for this; it concerns me that the husband was "out of town" when this occurred. That is a bit of a red flag to me. If these boys chose this house randomly, how could they have known the husband/dad was away? Maybe they really didn't care, but it's still a bit odd to me...

ADD is often mis-diagnoised, inflating the numbers. I know teachers who routinely ask parents to schedule dr.'s appt's to have the child medicated because they think Johnny wiggles too much and distracts the other kids. (Medicating the child is SO much easier than the teacher having to "deal with it." and a teacher told me that!)

I really wouldn't think an inability to stay on task would make a child more inclined to commit violent crimes.

Originally Posted by amysmom

bold by me

ITA with your POV! tho I am confused about Marks & his father's account of his behavior after the crime..It is very damaging..Does he not see that?

It does seem damaging, but it could probably also be understood to be describing a young man in shock. (That's what the defense attorney will have to say.)

The article raised some interesting points. If they broke in at 4AM, and Mark's texted his dad at 4:10AM, then he really may have stayed in the basement instead of participating in the crime.

[RayStar]

Originally Posted by trigger

Very little crime there. Everyone leaves there doors unlocked, well until now.

Why ? Why ? Why ? So Senseless.

I keep thinking what signs are we missing when it comes to our youth. I still think alarms are great but an eardrum busting siren is needed with it. I'm not sure all alarm companies offer the siren.

[STEADFAST]

I hope they find out whether the girls who were at the gathering before the crime had any knowledge of what was about to happen, even if just a home-invasion robbery. If so, they could have warned someone and averted this crime. I hope they are held accountable if they knew anything ahead of time.

[Boyz_Mum]

kgeaux,

I'm sorry that my ranting/opinion offended you. That was not my intention. I feel like our young people are over medicated and at times with crimes such as this, my opinion and frustration overrule my good sense. (And I don't type my thoughts very well.) I would like to see studies done to see how many crimes are committed by people with a medical history that includes the use of psychotropic drugs or the stimulants for ADD.

My intention also was not to "lump" all the psychological disorders together, or offend anyone. Apologies to anyone that I may have offended.

[kgeaux]

Originally Posted by Boyz_Mum

kgeaux,

I'm sorry that my ranting/opinion offended you. That was not my intention. I feel like our young people are over medicated and at times with crimes such as this, my opinion and frustration overrule my good sense. (And I don't type my thoughts very well.) I would like to see studies done to see how many crimes are committed by people with a medical history that includes the use of psychotropic drugs or the stimulants for ADD.

My intention also was not to "lump" all the psychological disorders together, or offend anyone. Apologies to anyone that I may have offended.

I wasn't offended! I am pretty confident that as an ADD sufferer, I am neither anti-social nor narcissistic! I was just curious as to what would make you feel that way. I thought maybe you'd met several little ADD bats out of hell or something! I understand now that you are concerned with over-medication in young people, and I am too.

We're good, girl! I'm sorry I worried you!

[Fairy1]

Originally Posted by kgeaux

I wasn't offended! I am pretty confident that as an ADD sufferer, I am neither anti-social nor narcissistic! I was just curious as to what would make you feel that way. I thought maybe you'd met several little ADD bats out of hell or something! I understand now that you are concerned with over-medication in young people, and I am too.

We're good, girl! I'm sorry I worried you!

From the sound of it, Spader was UNDER-medicated - and I'm certain the recreational drugs he was using were not helping.

This case is so very tragic all around. All of these boys who, by all accounts, were good boys with promising futures until recently, have murdered a completely innocent woman, nearly murdered an innocent child and destroyed their own lives. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I just don't get it. So many lives irrevocably overturned in, maybe, one hour and for $200 bucks. How the he!! are people supposed to make sense of it?

[LadyL]

Originally Posted by IWannaKnow

************************************************** *****

NOT THE FATHER OF WILLIAM MARKS. As noted by amysmom above (BBM), the father's name is JAMES Marks. He can be seen in a video at WMUR.com under "suspects father shocked", doesn't even look like the same guy.

http://www.wmur.com/video/21223803/index.html

I posted the wrong link. Pretty sure the man in that link is his uncle. Now I have to go link-hunting b/c there were accusations in a news forum or something that led me to that link but also made similar statements about the father.

[gxm]

I know it's a bit OT but my husband told me about this article he read in Bicycling magazine: "Riding is My Ritalin."

"For the past 30 years, athletes, coaches, sports psychologists and medical researchers have probed and debated one of the most complex mysteries of the human body: How does exercise affect the brain? Common sense and our own experience tell us it does something. Every parent knows the best way to settle down a hopped-up kid is to take him out to the playground and run the bug juice out of him. A generation ago, teachers and coaches frequently used this approach as well."

http://www.bicycling.com/tourdefranc...1050-1,00.html

Thought it might be good reading for those interested in the over-medicated kids debate.

[LadyL]

Originally Posted by IWannaKnow

Suzi - I read that Spader's g.f. lived on that road and they were seen together in a convenience store across from her house approx. 8 hrs before the crime...also Gribble posted on myspace about how much fun he had with Steve and Autumn (the g.f.) the night before, so I am going to deduce that it was Spader's car. We will see...
************************************************** ***************
from the link in amysmom's post #50 on page 2:

"The boat ramp is just north of the intersection of Runnells Bridge Road, also known as Route 111, and less than a quarter-mile from a convenience store where accused murderer Steven W. Spader, 18, and his friend, Autumn Savoy, 19, who lives at 88 Runnells Bridge Road, often visited, said store employee and Spader"s former high school classmate Philip Archambault, 19.

Archambault said the two teens walked to the store on Saturday from Savoy"s ranch home located across Route 111.

"It just seemed to me like he had a little fire in him," Archambault said of his former classmate. Spader, a Brookline resident, wore a black sweatshirt and jeans; Savoy was dressed in a black tank top and black jeans, he said.

Spader talked about how much he enjoyed smoking marijuana and showed off the "420" that Savoy tattooed on his arm the night before in recognition of National Get High Day on April 20, he said.

"He was definitely showing it off -- definitely gloating," Archambault said.

"He said something about moving to California because the crime rates are higher there," he said.

A young man who answered the door at Savoy's home yesterday had no comment and shut the door."
************************************************** ********************
Wonder if that is why they said they were collecting evidence in Hollis...the '420 Rally' they have been doing for awhile now...

I know everyone (including me) has been assuming the friend named Autumn is a girl but the only Autumn Savoy I can find evidence of in that area is a guy. He is 19 and a tattooer, which fits with the description of Savoy giving Spader a tattoo. Here is his myspace (check out the profile pic):

http://www.myspace.com/savoykid

[ebbie]

Originally Posted by gxm

I know it's a bit OT but my husband told me about this article he read in Bicycling magazine: "Riding is My Ritalin."

"For the past 30 years, athletes, coaches, sports psychologists and medical researchers have probed and debated one of the most complex mysteries of the human body: How does exercise affect the brain? Common sense and our own experience tell us it does something. Every parent knows the best way to settle down a hopped-up kid is to take him out to the playground and run the bug juice out of him. A generation ago, teachers and coaches frequently used this approach as well."

http://www.bicycling.com/tourdefranc...1050-1,00.html

Thought it might be good reading for those interested in the over-medicated kids debate.

OT or not, I wholeheartedly agree that physical exercise is very important to mental well being.

But to pinpoint one specific cause to crimes like these would be impossible. Its really a stew of dysfunctionality that leads kids down this path. Everything independently wouldn't cause the murders but together they were powerful enough to tip them over the edge.

Depression from teenage hormones
Lack of strong family/friend support
Media blitz of similar crimes
Desensitization from TV, music and moview (Dexter, CSI, etc..)
Parental wimpiness
Lack of a life goal or vision

I am cutting it short for lack of time.....

[LadyL]

William Marks and Quinn Glover attended school on Monday, one day after a woman in neighboring Mont Vernon was found stabbed to death. By the end of the day, they were being questioned in connection with her death.

http://www.wmur.com/news/21220828/detail.html

[Fairy1]

Originally Posted by LadyL

William Marks and Quinn Glover attended school on Monday, one day after a woman in neighboring Mont Vernon was found stabbed to death. By the end of the day, they were being questioned in connection with her death.

http://www.wmur.com/news/21220828/detail.html

I am beginning to believe these two really didn't know what the other two did at that house. I just can't see them being so nonchalant about it all. I'm hoping that's the case anyway...

[LadyL]

Spaders 17 yr. old girlfriend is pregnant:

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/reg...roubled_teens/

[amysmom]

Originally Posted by kgeaux

It does seem damaging, but it could probably also be understood to be describing a young man in shock. (That's what the defense attorney will have to say.)

The article raised some interesting points. If they broke in at 4AM, and Mark's texted his dad at 4:10AM, then he really may have stayed in the basement instead of participating in the crime.

snipped & bold by me

Who knows exactly what time they broke in?..The dead mom cant be the source, the severely injured daughter probably isnt capable now (if ever) of being the source, so that leaves the perps..It appears at least one is talking but I find it hard to believe any of them knows exactly what time it was..It also makes more sense to me Mark texted his dad just prior to the break in cos who would/could do it at the same time as the murder & mayhem? Even if they were in the basement..But then why be in shock?..Not sure I buy that excuse anyway.

[Fairy1]

Originally Posted by LadyL

Spaders 17 yr. old girlfriend is pregnant:

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/reg...roubled_teens/

Oh FGS!!!! Another innocent victim.

[spicedtea]

Originally Posted by SuziQ

Also the fact that mom, IIRC, was hacked to death in bed, kinda shows priority right there. They killed her right off while she was sleeping.

Yeah,it strikes me more of a sick "thrill killing" than a robbery. The robbery was probably just icing on the cake,imo.

It's just horrific.

[spicedtea]

Originally Posted by Fairy1

I am beginning to believe these two really didn't know what the other two did at that house. I just can't see them being so nonchalant about it all. I'm hoping that's the case anyway...

But wouldn't the others have been covered with blood when they fled? Or heard the victims screams? I'm assuming all four fled together,I haven't read otherwise yet so I may be wrong.

I don't know,but I tend to feel all four are culpable to a degree,especially since they didn't call for help afterwards . Unless they really DIDN'T know,like you suggest of course.

[spicedtea]

Originally Posted by RayStar

I keep thinking what signs are we missing when it comes to our youth. I still think alarms are great but an eardrum busting siren is needed with it. I'm not sure all alarm companies offer the siren.

I don't really know what would be the best protection. I am very rural here and have 3 dogs but still stay up all night until my hubby gets home from the night shift.

People ignore alarms because some just go off so much,like car alarms. I think of Cassidy Senter,a girl that was murdered in St. Louis in 1993. She had one of those pen shaped but loud personal alarms. Did no good. Her killer tossed it out the window and a neighbor picked it up and buried it because he couldn't get it to shut off and it was annoying him.

I'm sure he felt terrible when he found out what it was but it goes to show how useless alarms can be.