Starting from scratch

[believe09]

Originally Posted by dreamweaver

===========================================
Gee, I did not know we were to submit all possible matches to BK before submitting to law enforcment.

I thought we discussed it on this board and if agreed that it could be a likely match, one of us, submitted it to the local LE agency.

Was there a rule passed and I did not notice it?

Nah dream-

Tips and possible matches are TWO DIFFERENT things, imo. Possible matches should follow the rules that Christine2448 put up on the sticky in the forum. Tips are far less structured.

Here is another example-I received a call from a former NHP (Nevada Highway Patrol Officer) last month claiming that he recognized Benjaman from a protective custody he did in 2001. I sent the guy links to audio and visual of BK; he was still positive. I called the jail where the suspect would have been PC'd-they take prints on the subject but the do not maintain them in a database-they leave them on a fingerprint card and file it with the incident report. The Booking sargeant was kind enough to pull EVERY file for a three year period and go through them by hand to see if he could find the incident the NHP officer remembered. Believe it or not, he found it-it took him 4 days. BK was RULED OUT as a match, but the subject could have been his twin. In any case, this is an example of how I receive a tip and vet it as much as I can before I pass it along. I do not post it on the board because it has been ruled out-I keep notes however.

[carolwood]

Originally Posted by believe09

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/top...olaryngoplasty

There is actually a surgery that can be done to shave down the adams apple. I wonder where the scar would appear?

According to this article:

snip:

"a small, horizontal incision is made on the bottom of the Adam's apple.

Little scarring occurs in most cases because the surgeon will usually make the incision in one of the minuscule folds of skin that cover the Adam's apple."

[WholeLottaRosie]

Originally Posted by believe09

Tips should be submitted to the law enforcement contact of the missing person or to FBI Bill typically. If you read most of the current media on Benjaman, he has a forensic geneaologist who is listed as the contact for tips, as well as the Savannah GA FBI. The reason that there is a civilian contact in the articles is because some people do not want to deal directly with law enforcement when calling in tips, so it is nice to give them an alternative.

I have direct contact with Benjaman and Nurse Betty-(we use a pseudonym for his former nurse because she asked us to.) I believe Carolwood also has direct contact with Benjaman. Tips can be submitted through either one of us.

I cannot speak for Carolwood, but the tips I receive are vetted and sent to certain people depending on a certain set of criteria established for me by FBI Bill. For example, someone called me today with a tip that included information which was at a source I could not obtain data from. I sent that tip directly to FBI Bill and BK so they can use LE resources to obtain the information I could not get. Usually, I encounter sources that will give me some basic information and then I can see if I should forward the info on-if I find out that a possible match had a huge tattoo on his chest and three legs I would NOT send that forward.

Does this help?

I do not know everyone BK works with-that is the joy of having a real live UID on the boards...they are contacted by many different resources with offers of help-we at WS chug along with the basic goal of uncovering his ID if we can.

Thanks. This does help. I must have misread something.

[believe09]

Hey Guys-

I contacted Memorial's CEO today to find out if the fee as reported was still accurate. This is a copy/paste from his response:

"Mr. Kyle and his then identified care giver/guardian were given, in August 2008, 116 pages of pertinent medical records. The material was provided AT NO CHARGE. I do not appreciate the negative characterization of being uncooperative."

I want you guys to know that I did not imply Memorial was being uncooperative-I simply asked if the fee was accurate. So FWIW, Memorial feels STRONGLY that they have given Benjaman all of the relevant data in regards to his stay at Memorial.

Umm. Wow.

[Cubby]

Originally Posted by believe09

I asked how could he be sure if
he wasn't there. He said his friend told him and that his friend also found
clothes in the dumpster. I asked if I could speak to him and he said he no
longer works for RHPD. I don't think anyone thought to use the clothing as
evidence and it is too late now.

respectfully snipped for space. My apologies if this has been discussed already.

Has anyone contacted this "friend" who indicated Mr. Kyle was a vagabond despite him no longer being on the PD? He may be willing to provide further information and cooperate with a contact despite his no longer being on the PD, or working for this particular local PD. Simply because he is no longer with the pd, I would not simply dismiss the possibility of speaking with him. Did anyone have a name for him? Sleuth him? Try to make contact?

I'm assuming based on NB's statement, the clothing was not retained as evidence, despite claims of clothing being seen in the dumpster? Has this been verified? (That the clothing was not retained and actually seen?)

[Kentjbkent]

Originally Posted by believe09

Mr. Kyle has well documented scars. We do not know what all of the scars are from however, so let's relist them here without the speculation as to what caused them unless it has been confirmed.

• Two parallel surgical scars on left elbow (from reparative surgery.) XRAYS documented a 5 inch pin.
• Surgical scar on front of neck.
• Small round scar on left side of face near chin.

I am now wondering if all the documented scars and injuries of BK could possibly be related to one specific incident?

From various threads, I have learned that he has:

1. A surgical scar on left elbow (with pins implanted)

2. A scar on forearm that he believes was from a skin grafting surgery

3. Surgical scar on front of neck

4. Head contusions (indentions) that were not recorded as having occurred
as a result of an assault in RH in 2004.

He also has:

1. A facial scar that may be related to an absessed tooth

2. 4 missing teeth

I am wondering if it is possible that the first four scars/injuries could have been from injuries that happened during a single traumatic incident such as vehicle accident, pedestrian/vehicle accident, assault?

If these were four separate surgeries/injuries during separate timeframes in his life, one would assume that he was employed and was covered by health insurance as these hospitalizations and surgeries would be costly, with or without insurance. (We already know that he was not covered as military veteran)

However, one could assume that BK's dental needs were not be attended to if the scar on the left cheek area was indeed from a neglected abcessed tooth (to cause such severe damage as to cause scarring on the outer flesh) and missing teeth.

One could also assume that BK was not receiving care from an eye specialist due to the severe (legally blind) state of his cataracts when found.

Is it a possibility that some time prior to August 31, 2004 (somewhere), BK was involved in a very serious accident or assault and was transported to an emergency room where he received treatment (and possibly hospitalization) for a broken elbow and at least one other injury on his forearm that resulted in scarring? Could the scar on his neck be the result of a tracheotomy to open his airway? Could these "indentations" shown on the CAT scan be a result of a head injury during this same incident?

What if he was a pedestrian that was hit by a car or something of that nature? Could he have been the victim of a previous brutal assault? Could he have been in a vehicle accident as either driver or passenger?

It is just striking me as odd that he has appeared to have received extensive medical care in some areas, whereas other areas are completely lacking?

[Kentjbkent]

[quote=believe09;4266758]6.

CLIPPED FOR BREVITY

What were the circumstances of his mugging and beating ? What police
dept took a report ? Who is the investigating officer and how can I get a
copy of the report? What are his injuries besides the amnesia?

Answer - He was found naked and unresponsive and covered with fire ant
bites beside a dumpster. The dumpster is behind a Burger King on Highway 17,
right across from Interstate 95 (exit 87), in Richmond Hill, GA.
The Richmond Hill Police Department (phone #912-756-5645) responded to
the call and the "miscellaneous incident" report case #04080687 dated
8/31/04 shows Corporal Potts was on the scene (I have already made a copy of
this report as well as the EMS report for you - just tell me where to mail
it). This is where the vagabond label was first applied to him and has made
it virtually impossible for me to get any assistance for this man without
the aid of a U.S. Congressman. Lt. Mike Albritton recalls the incident. He
said his friend's wife worked the ER at St. Joseph's Hospital then in
Savannah where they took Mr. Kyle and he was dubbed "Burger King Doe"
because of where they found him. I asked if I could talk to someone who was
actually on the scene and he said none of them are working on RHPD now. He
said he is sure that Mr. Kyle is a vagabond. I asked how could he be sure if
he wasn't there. He said his friend told him and that his friend also found
clothes in the dumpster. I asked if I could speak to him and he said he no
longer works for RHPD. I don't think anyone thought to use the clothing as
evidence and it is too late now.

Do you know who specifically had the conversation with Mike Albritton that resulted in the statements made above? Did NB speak directly to Mike Albritton, or did she speak with someone else who stated they spoke to him (making her information 3rd hand)?

I know for a fact that at least one of the officers who responded to the Burger King is and has been employed by RHPD since that night and that is the officer who wrote the "misc" report, so curious as to where info came that no one who was there that night works for RHPD now?

[believe09]

[quote=Kentjbkent;4373564]

Originally Posted by believe09

6.

CLIPPED FOR BREVITY

What were the circumstances of his mugging and beating ? What police
dept took a report ? Who is the investigating officer and how can I get a
copy of the report? What are his injuries besides the amnesia?

Answer - He was found naked and unresponsive and covered with fire ant
bites beside a dumpster. The dumpster is behind a Burger King on Highway 17,
right across from Interstate 95 (exit 87), in Richmond Hill, GA.
The Richmond Hill Police Department (phone #912-756-5645) responded to
the call and the "miscellaneous incident" report case #04080687 dated
8/31/04 shows Corporal Potts was on the scene (I have already made a copy of
this report as well as the EMS report for you - just tell me where to mail
it). This is where the vagabond label was first applied to him and has made
it virtually impossible for me to get any assistance for this man without
the aid of a U.S. Congressman. Lt. Mike Albritton recalls the incident. He
said his friend's wife worked the ER at St. Joseph's Hospital then in
Savannah where they took Mr. Kyle and he was dubbed "Burger King Doe"
because of where they found him. I asked if I could talk to someone who was
actually on the scene and he said none of them are working on RHPD now. He
said he is sure that Mr. Kyle is a vagabond. I asked how could he be sure if
he wasn't there. He said his friend told him and that his friend also found
clothes in the dumpster. I asked if I could speak to him and he said he no
longer works for RHPD. I don't think anyone thought to use the clothing as
evidence and it is too late now.

Do you know who specifically had the conversation with Mike Albritton that resulted in the statements made above? Did NB speak directly to Mike Albritton, or did she speak with someone else who stated they spoke to him (making her information 3rd hand)?

I know for a fact that at least one of the officers who responded to the Burger King is and has been employed by RHPD since that night and that is the officer who wrote the "misc" report, so curious as to where info came that no one who was there that night works for RHPD now?

If this is a question for me, friend, the copy paste above was from an email from NB. She forwarded the email to me-it was not originally for me. So the EMS reports were never sent to me by NB. These are not my statements.

I have the police file because of FOIA. RHPD believes that they found a transient next to the dumpster. That is the position they took in 2004 and that they are taking today.

Other than the above email, I have never heard or seen evidence that BK's clothing was in the dumpster.

[believe09]

I think there is a case for BK's scars having occurred with some kind of catastrophic event. I do not have any independent proof that the scar on his neck is from a discetomy. That does not mean it is NOT-it simply means I have seen nothing indicating it definitively is. I would think that the hardware could be documented via XRAY or CT scan. Rose and I have been talking off line about his neck scar and whether it could have resulted from some kind of thyroid surgery. It was likely not as a result of a tracheostomy because that scar would appear lower on his neck....I suspected a tracheostomy and a catastrophic event initially as well.

I have not seen the XRAY of BK's elbow, but was read the results. It was a big boo boo-a big break. I can see why it might have required skin grafts but do not know if that is why he had scarring on his arm and if it is associated with the elbow break.

Look at his shoulders in the new pictures. One appears to slope significantly.

I do not know that there is documentation of depressions in Benjaman's skull-I have seen NB describe them as such.

[Kentjbkent]

[quote=believe09;4375054]

Originally Posted by Kentjbkent

If this is a question for me, friend, the copy paste above was from an email from NB. She forwarded the email to me-it was not originally for me. So the EMS reports were never sent to me by NB. These are not my statements.

I have the police file because of FOIA. RHPD believes that they found a transient next to the dumpster. That is the position they took in 2004 and that they are taking today.

Other than the above email, I have never heard or seen evidence that BK's clothing was in the dumpster.

So if I am understanding correctly, the original email was between NB and some member of LE in 2007, but email exchange was NOT between NB and M. Albritton, correct?

Trying to tie down whether comments purportedly made by M. Albritton were made directly to NB, or were being relayed by "member of LE" (to NB) summarizing a conversation that member of LE had with M. Albritton prior to email exchange with NB?

[Kentjbkent]

Originally Posted by believe09

I think there is a case for BK's scars having occurred with some kind of catastrophic event. I do not have any independent proof that the scar on his neck is from a discetomy. That does not mean it is NOT-it simply means I have seen nothing indicating it definitively is. I would think that the hardware could be documented via XRAY or CT scan. Rose and I have been talking off line about his neck scar and whether it could have resulted from some kind of thyroid surgery. It was likely not as a result of a tracheostomy because that scar would appear lower on his neck....I suspected a tracheostomy and a catastrophic event initially as well.

I have not seen the XRAY of BK's elbow, but was read the results. It was a big boo boo-a big break. I can see why it might have required skin grafts but do not know if that is why he had scarring on his arm and if it is associated with the elbow break.

Look at his shoulders in the new pictures. One appears to slope significantly.

I do not know that there is documentation of depressions in Benjaman's skull-I have seen NB describe them as such.

I actually have Graves (thyroid disease) but did NOT have surgery on my thyroid. Instead, I took RAI (radiation) treatment. A very good friend here, however, was diagnosed at the same time with thyroid cancer and she DID have surgery to remove her thyroid. Her scar is straight across but much longer than BK's, but his could have been to remove a goiter?

In both of our cases (mine and friends), it resulted in both of us having to be on Synthroid for life. Do you know if BK regularly takes any type of thyroid medications to control an inactive/overactive thyroid condition that may have included thyroid surgery?

While on the subject of medical care, I know we are not privy to hospital records, but are we aware of any injuries that were documented as a result of the supposive "beating" committed to BK in August of 2004? I don't think I have read anything about any bruising, bleeding, lacerations, etc? (One of the questions I want to ask RHPD)

[believe09]

To my knowlege, BK does not take thyroid replacement medication. Now, I have a brother with Hashimoto's. He does not take thyroid replacement yet. I know that each person is different and the level of replacement depends on the body. It is possible to have tissue removed and not have to take something like Synthroid yet. BUT, hypothyroid can cause excessive sweating, weight gain, confusion, dizzieness...so I have been wondering what BK's thyroid panel looked like from the hospital records.

I have seen nothing that independently documents a beating-no sign of scratches, bruises, blood, broken bones etc. Clearly, RHPD saw no sign of a crime. Or they would have pursued it because that is what the police do.

[believe09]

[quote=Kentjbkent;4375131]

Originally Posted by believe09

So if I am understanding correctly, the original email was between NB and some member of LE in 2007, but email exchange was NOT between NB and M. Albritton, correct?

Trying to tie down whether comments purportedly made by M. Albritton were made directly to NB, or were being relayed by "member of LE" (to NB) summarizing a conversation that member of LE had with M. Albritton prior to email exchange with NB?

This email was not between M. Albritton and NB, correct.

[Wendy101]

Originally Posted by believe09

I have seen nothing that independently documents a beating-no sign of scratches, bruises, blood, broken bones etc. Clearly, RHPD saw no sign of a crime. Or they would have pursued it because that is what the police do.

I thought he was found badly beaten?

[believe09]

Originally Posted by Zaha

I thought he was found badly beaten?

this is where things are tricky, Zaha. It is almost like a game of telephone that I can see in the media....I am busily trying to trace the origin of the statements.

For Example: We have a copy paste of some CT scan results done by the ER doc with NB notes included in them. From what I can see, the notations made by NB were included as fact rather than being separated out. The doctor notes that there are 3 small lacunes noted in the CT result. NB notes that lacunes are depressions in the skull-in fact, lacunes are defined as follows-
"arteries penetrating deep into the brain become blocked by atherosclerosis, causing areas of surrounding tissue to lose their blood supply. The tissue may then wither, creating minute holes, called lacunes. A succession of transient ischemic attacks over the years can riddle the brain, causing dementia."

This is from the Encyclopedia Britannica. Lacunes can be part of a stroke diagnoses. Basically they were noted by the ER Doc as three small white areas in BK's brain on the right side. They could be a sign of an aging brain, they could be a sign of a previous stroke but they are not definitive examples of a previous skull fracture or depression.

Somehow, this has evolved to BK having signs of a head injury when he was found.

Am I making any sense?

[dreamweaver]

believe09:
Yes, you are making sense.
And I am glad you are.
I have thought all this time, BK
had three seperate depressions
on the outside of his head.
NOT.

NB is a psychiatric nurse, do you think she
just used her nurse lingo to describe the injuries inside
the brain?

[Roselvr]

Originally Posted by believe09

I think there is a case for BK's scars having occurred with some kind of catastrophic event. I do not have any independent proof that the scar on his neck is from a discetomy. That does not mean it is NOT-it simply means I have seen nothing indicating it definitively is. I would think that the hardware could be documented via XRAY or CT scan. Rose and I have been talking off line about his neck scar and whether it could have resulted from some kind of thyroid surgery. It was likely not as a result of a tracheostomy because that scar would appear lower on his neck....I suspected a tracheostomy and a catastrophic event initially as well.

I have not seen the XRAY of BK's elbow, but was read the results. It was a big boo boo-a big break. I can see why it might have required skin grafts but do not know if that is why he had scarring on his arm and if it is associated with the elbow break.

Look at his shoulders in the new pictures. One appears to slope significantly.

I do not know that there is documentation of depressions in Benjaman's skull-I have seen NB describe them as such.

From what I've researched on back surgery; the scar is not in the right place.
Now, having said that, are we all talking about the same scar? From what I've read & reread, it almost sounds like there is another that would be covered by his shirt.

As far as the spine/neck/thyroid; easiest way is to have an Xray taken to confirm surgery. Then a blood test to see what his levels are to rule out thyroid. If he needs to be on medication; this would be beneficial to him.

His other injuries; IMO they could have happened at any time of his 50 to 60 years of life. Is it possible he was burned and had a skin graft for that? his elbow could be repetitive motion I guess. Do we know if he actually has pins? I had shoulder & ankle surgery in the 1980's; by then it was arthroscopic. Now; having said that, there are some surgeries where they still leave a huge scar. I have piriformis syndrome; the piriformus is in the butt. The surgery to fix it; last time I had a consult was an 18 inch scar on both sides. I haven't done it cause it's radical to me. Doing a google, they're switching to arthroscopic.

Anyway, it's possible he had some kind of muscle/bone repair.

My thoughts are; what ever happened, I'm not so sure the type of surgery matters except to try to figure out his history. A lot of people have researched missing person's, so far no one with his medical history matches - except the guy that fell off the dock. It's possible a missing person's page will get updated with scars & surgeries but from what I've seen; I highly doubt it.

Who he was doesn't really matter to me; to me he is a kind & funny man that needs to have a current life. I would like to see this mystery solved so that he can move on.


.

[believe09]

He does have a big a** pin in his arm. (Sorry for the implied language.) A 5" pin. That is a big repair so that injury must have hurt. IIRC, big pins are done for joint stability, the down side is that they can affect range of motion. It might impact his ability to throw a baseball or football...

I do think we need to document as much as we can and verify it because it is helpful to his history.

I also believe that BK is a nice, kind, funny man who needs to have a current life of choices available to him.

[believe09]

Originally Posted by dreamweaver

believe09:
Yes, you are making sense.
And I am glad you are.
I have thought all this time, BK
had three seperate depressions
on the outside of his head.
NOT.

NB is a psychiatric nurse, do you think she
just used her nurse lingo to describe the injuries inside
the brain?

I think it is tough to make this call in a vacuum-I mean, maybe BK has a nobby head and she can feel areas on his head that seemed to correspond with the scan reading?

I think the key to this finding is whether or not there were bumps, depressions, contusions, cuts etc...that corresponded with this. The Doc makes no note of this in the copy paste from NB email. There is no finding I can see indicating that there was a fracture.

So, what did LE and the EMS see when BK was found and examined? Does it line up with what was found/not found via examination at the first hospital he was transferred to?

I keep going backwards to the possibility that they missed a possible stroke, given the lacunes that were found. Hard to believe an ER doc would miss this. So I would love to know what they believed caused the state he was in when he was found?

LE does not believe he was assaulted. So how did he end up lying near the dumpster? Is it even important to his story? I mean, we have a man who is still a living UID...

[Roselvr]

Originally Posted by believe09

He does have a big a** pin in his arm. (Sorry for the implied language.) A 5" pin. That is a big repair so that injury must have hurt. IIRC, big pins are done for joint stability, the down side is that they can affect range of motion. It might impact his ability to throw a baseball or football...

I do think we need to document as much as we can and verify it because it is helpful to his history.

I also believe that BK is a nice, kind, funny man who needs to have a current life of choices available to him.

Ok, so we know there was definite surgery with big 5 inch pins.
Do you know the exact location of these pins? I have something in mind, want to be sure.

Quick google search

Chronic elbow dislocation: a rare complication of tennis elbow surgery.

Ulnar Nerve Transposition Surgery Photo of location from same person


Google images - Ulnar Nerve Transposition Surgery

Originally Posted by believe09

I keep going backwards to the possibility that they missed a possible stroke, given the lacunes that were found. Hard to believe an ER doc would miss this. So I would love to know what they believed caused the state he was in when he was found?

LE does not believe he was assaulted. So how did he end up lying near the dumpster? Is it even important to his story? I mean, we have a man who is still a living UID...

I agree that something such as a stroke is something they shouldn't have missed; but being that they thought he lived on the street they may not have "cared", and I say cared for lack of a better word. Obviously with no ID; no insurance they wanted to get rid of him as quick as possible.

[believe09]

Originally Posted by Roselvr

Ok, so we know there was definite surgery with big 5 inch pins.
Do you know the exact location of these pins? I have something in mind, want to be sure.

Quick google search


Ulnar Nerve Transposition Surgery Photo of location from same person


Google images - Ulnar Nerve Transposition Surgery



I agree that something such as a stroke is something they shouldn't have missed; but being that they thought he lived on the street they may not have "cared", and I say cared for lack of a better word. Obviously with no ID; no insurance they wanted to get rid of him as quick as possible.

I don't remember the exact location of the pin-I will check my notes.

I am going to say that "BK" was at that hospital for 2 weeks before he was transferred to Memorial. I doubt they were kicking him to the curb because of the lack of insurance!

[Roselvr]

Originally Posted by believe09

I am going to say that "BK" was at that hospital for 2 weeks before he was transferred to Memorial. I doubt they were kicking him to the curb because of the lack of insurance!

I'm not conveying what I'm trying to say..

They knew he didn't have insurance and possibly, they did not want to take on something such as a stroke with no insurance because that would mean expensive tests, no? Bad enough having to eat a hospital stay..

[believe09]

Originally Posted by Roselvr

I'm not conveying what I'm trying to say..

They knew he didn't have insurance and possibly, they did not want to take on something such as a stroke with no insurance because that would mean expensive tests, no? Bad enough having to eat a hospital stay..

You could be right. I would like to know what kept him there the two weeks-they must have been ruling out something or there must have been a belief regarding something for them not to have kicked him to Memorial sooner. JMO.

[believe09]

Just so you guys can get a sense-I have worked on the administrative side of health care. Every hospital, unless it is private, has free care dollars that they have to spend or lose. This was the principal that got us free xrays for BK's elbow from Memorial in March. They wrote it off. So-the first hospital where BK was treated likely wrote off his care or hoped he would have medical insurance. Regardless, federal law guarantees the best care be given to those regardless of ability to pay.

[Roselvr]

Originally Posted by believe09

You could be right. I would like to know what kept him there the two weeks-they must have been ruling out something or there must have been a belief regarding something for them not to have kicked him to Memorial sooner. JMO.

Ok, so that's a good place to start with questions.

Originally Posted by believe09

Just so you guys can get a sense-I have worked on the administrative side of health care. Every hospital, unless it is private, has free care dollars that they have to spend or lose. This was the principal that got us free xrays for BK's elbow from Memorial in March. They wrote it off. So-the first hospital where BK was treated likely wrote off his care or hoped he would have medical insurance. Regardless, federal law guarantees the best care be given to those regardless of ability to pay.

But, and this is a big but; which you may know better then I do..
When you got the Xrays in March, it was pretty much the start of their calendar year, correct?

This happened in August; we don't know how much of those "free health care dollars" they had used at this point.

Aren't hospitals allowed to deny service for lack of not being able to pay - or should I say, were they allowed to back then?

I see it on the TV; and while I realize what we see on TV is not necessarily true; I feel it's possible that they did not give him their all due to the information they had that day.

We know Benjaman was healthy except for what landed him there. The tests run did not show he was thought to be homeless.