MO- Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martins Thread #9

imamaze · #1 11-14-2009, 09:05 PM

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Bibliophile · #2 11-15-2009, 11:36 PM

Just something to ponder ---

I had occasion to speak with some other local residents this weekend. One thing that was discussed that I thought may be of interest to WS'ers is that AB and EO may have had a sort of history. It may have been because of their previous interactions and/or EO's interactions with AB's younger siblings - but these locals believed she was a target because there were specific reasons why AB did not like EO. I mention this only because we had previously discussed this being a "thrill kill" and I also wondered if some of the written evidence obtained by LE made reference to previous altercations.

Given AB's emotional instability, I wonder if she took her role of big sister defending her siblings too far?

Prof · #3 11-16-2009, 01:04 AM

Bibliophile, I would not be at all surprised to find that there have been altercations between AB and EO, and other sorts of trouble; I just have to think she did not move from playing with electric fences directly to murder -- my guess is there are not much in the way of records, or the Sheriff could have zoned in a bit sooner --

As far as defending her siblings? They seemed to be her playthings on the videos, wanting them to get hurt, so IDK if I can see her as an avenger or anything

Bibliophile · #4 11-16-2009, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prof

-- my guess is there are not much in the way of records, or the Sheriff could have zoned in a bit sooner --

I was referring to anything written by AB about EO.

Quote:

As far as defending her siblings? They seemed to be her playthings on the videos, wanting them to get hurt, so IDK if I can see her as an avenger or anything

I guess I didn't read the videos that way but I'm specifically referring to her feeling defensive about her siblings. I know with my own kids and hundreds of others I have known, they may fight like cats and dogs with each other - but if the neighborhood bully came calling for a little sister or brother??? It was one for all and all for one. And given the dysfunction they came from, AB may have felt a warped sense of duty as the eldest.

I also have to wonder how EO's background may have affected her and her interaction with other children. Did a troubled little girl become a target of an even more troubled teen?

MDATCA · #5 11-16-2009, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bibliophile

I was referring to anything written by AB about EO.

I guess I didn't read the videos that way but I'm specifically referring to her feeling defensive about her siblings. I know with my own kids and hundreds of others I have known, they may fight like cats and dogs with each other - but if the neighborhood bully came calling for a little sister or brother??? It was one for all and all for one. And given the dysfunction they came from, AB may have felt a warped sense of duty as the eldest.

I also have to wonder how EO's background may have affected her and her interaction with other children. Did a troubled little girl become a target of an even more troubled teen?

I totally agree. IME siblings can be fighting like crazy and if a peer steps in they tend to stop and both focus on the intruder.

I theorized that AB identified with many aspects of EO's life. There are a few different things I theorized cold be "motivators" on why EO. I have thought that alone could cause deep hate feelings as AB hated herself.

EO was around the age when AB was finally settled and GMa got custody and AB wanted to "exorcise" her own demons and EO was a close fit. In AB's diseased mind maybe she thought if she got rid of EO she could get rid of her own past and be able to move on and get better.

AB may have felt envious of EO. Even though AB was in a better financial situation she may have thought that EO had it better and it was not fair. EO had her mother and a step father who loved her and wanted her. I think that AB felt that she wasn't really wanted at GMa's. When you read the things that AuntKNP wrote AB had to have felt those feelings from KNP. I am sure at some time she looked up to her Aunt as a big sister. Instead of being a big sister KNP resented the changes in her life that the kids brought into her life. The twins were little and boys so it wasn't the same with them. IMO AB and KNP had a very strained relationship.

I hope more information will come out in the next few days. Even if by some chance she isn't going to be charged as an adult it would be better to let info out rather than all the local rumors and Internet talk. If they released her name, COD and what makes AB "this particular juvenile" then I think the community would feel more at ease about what happened. The community wants to and needs to know whether AB acted alone or not. There are many rumors about her boyfriend and other friends that need to be put to rest so that they can go on with their lives. All the secrecy isn't helping anyone. It will be next to impossible to get an unbiased jury together there. I think if some info came out it would be better for both families involved. Both could try to get their lives together as best as possible because people wold somewhat "back off" if there was reliable info released. They could go out without having as many trying to get inside info from them.

mominjc · #6 11-16-2009, 10:23 AM

I am new to this site, but I have been reading the threads from several days now trying to catch up. I am a local with information overheard first hand from the spouse of an employee at the Prenger Center where AB is housed. I heard this information last week or the week before but it's no big secret I'm sure. Here it is - The attorney at the Prenger Center made a "gentlemen's agreement" with the local media to NOT release the perps name or any other identifying information. All local media was in agreement; however, the national media was not on board and when this matter went national the attorney was pissed that information was being leaked on these boards, NG, and other outlets.

Additionally, I have been told directly by a person who had colleages that worked the suicide of the teacher Mr. Currie.....his death was related. The teacher had first hand knowledge of ABs writings. The guilt from what he knew was the reason he killed himself. It had nothing to do with him being sick. Now I didn't ask if there was a note or anything of the sort. I was just told he was the journalism teacher and AB was a student in his class. Now I have read from other possible students posting that AB was NOT a student in Mr. Currie's class....so you guess is as good as mine as to whether she was a student in his journalism class or if he was just someone that AB confided in.

Again all of this is just my opinion based upon information I heard from people I believe to be trusted sources.

mia g · #7 11-16-2009, 11:04 AM

I am not sure we know KNP and AB had a strained relationship. In KNP writings AB is only menttioned twice. Once they went shopping.. and then the post where KNP was very angry. That was only one day out of mths of writing. I do not think their realtionship can be judged based on that one post. KNP was of adult age, and if it was so bad she could moved out.. I think at that time in KNP life she was mad at someone most of the time(from her writings) If it wasnt her step mom, it was RP, or her friends that "snitched" on her..etc. She was 18 or 19 at the time.. most girls that age tend to mad on a regular basis especially if not getting her way w/ things. Then u add in AB using her stuff invading her privacy to get her stuff and she had reason to be mad, we have NO way to know how long that "mad" lasted though.

nursebeeme · #8 11-16-2009, 11:44 AM

welcome mominjc! Thanks for the informative post

tlcox · #9 11-16-2009, 11:47 AM

Thank you for your post and welcome, mominjc we are happy to have you and your thoughts here

tlcox · #10 11-16-2009, 11:52 AM

As far as the earlier posts regarding AB's possible personal dislike of EO, I do not think it is a matter of feeling defensive of your siblings. IMOO, this will turn out to be what I have said all along.

A girl who is po'd at a younger siblings friend/playmate for totally stupid, immature reasons. If anything it is possible that AB felt not defensive of but POSSESIVE of her siblings and their attention as they were her playthings. What if when EO was over, sibling suddenly didn't jump through your hoops? What if whenever EO was over said sibling didn't listen to you or pay you any mind but backtalked you or blew you off to impress playmate/friend?

For a phsychologically damaged teen who is enamoured of all things dark, dangerous and deadly, this could have been enough to earn EO her hatred.

Kimster · #11 11-16-2009, 12:08 PM

Hello mominjc!!!

Jodibug · #12 11-16-2009, 12:30 PM

I need to put in my vacation time request for the hearing on Wed and I'm not able to confirm anything about when/where.

I am assuming it will be held at the court house, first thing in the morning in Jon Beetam's courtroom. If anyone knows anything different, please let me know.

Probably won't be able to get in, but we'll see what happens.

W8nC · #13 11-16-2009, 12:47 PM

I have my vacation request in, but haven't got approval yet. I hope to see you there, Jodibug! I'd love to get in, but if it's seriously crowded, I may give up my place to someone else. I'm hearing impaired (lol, not LEGAL hearings, I mean I wear hearing aids), so if it's too crowded, I wouldn't be able to get much out of it anyway. Still, I'd like to get a look at all the folks involved. I've met AB a couple of times, and saw her GP once, but haven't seen any of the other relatives, the judge, attornies, etc.

W8nC · #14 11-16-2009, 12:48 PM

p.s. I think all WS folks who attend should wear something like a red carnation on our labels, so we can id each other.....whadya think?? ......jk

tgrlaw · #15 11-16-2009, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodibug

I need to put in my vacation time request for the hearing on Wed and I'm not able to confirm anything about when/where.

I am assuming it will be held at the court house, first thing in the morning in Jon Beetam's courtroom. If anyone knows anything different, please let me know.

Probably won't be able to get in, but we'll see what happens.

Glad to hear someone on WS is going to try and attend. I have no idea about the details either though. Wondering myself how this is going to go. (FYI to other sleuthers, the Cole Co. courthouse has four courtrooms, none of which are very big. The largest may seat 100 folks uncomfortably.)

I just read the statute about the certification process again, and it does leave the location of the hearing somewhat of wild card. But the hearing has to be held in the "presence" of the subject and their attorney. So, it is possible they could do this via video conference at the courthouse, in person at the courthouse, or at the Prenger Center(?).

Who knows? I'm sure the media will know sometime within the next day, but how soon they will disclose, if at all, is your guess.

W8nC · #16 11-16-2009, 01:16 PM

This was posted by desquire in thread #8...........

================================================== ============
It will be in Judge Beetem's courtroom in the Cole County Circuit Court, 301 East High Street, on the corner of High and Monroe in downtown Jefferson City. Juvenile Division hearings usually start at 1 and are done by 4:30, you might be able to find out when AB's certification hearing is scheduled by calling (573)-761-3641 on Wednesday.

Although there won't be much detailed evidience about AB's alleged acts in relation to the crime, the prosecutor will likely introduce testimony and evidence regarding the violent nature of the crime, any use of weapons, and any evidence of premeditation in an attempt to convince the judge that the juvenile system is inadequate to address the seriousness of the crime or to safely rehabilitate AB. The defense will try to show that AB is not competent to be tried in adult court and has mental issues that cannot be properly treated in the adult corrections system. If there is any truth to the rumors about accomplices or drug use, the defense will likely raise them. The Juvenile Office will report on its evaluation of AB and her background and mental state, which ought to provide details about her upbringing, any previous behavioral or psychological problems/treatments, any drug use, etc. So while Wednesday's hearing will not yield many answers about what happened on Oct. 21, it should provide a better picture of what happened to Eilzabeth and what type of person AB is.

I don't think the outcome of Wednesday's hearing is much in doubt. With Missouri's dual jurisdiction system there is not much incentive for any judge to keep a first degree murder case in juvenile court. The most the defense can hope for is to keep the defendent in juvenile detention until trial. If the rumors about premeditation and the post mortem mutilation have any substance, I think it's a very safe bet that AB wakes up on Thursday in an adult prison (or, at best, a Fulton State Hospital criminal ward) where she will stay until trial in an adult Criminal Division court.
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Csquare · #17 11-16-2009, 01:31 PM

Judge Beetem has the smallest of the court rooms. It may hold 50-75 elbow to elbow. I do not like the attorney at the Prenger center. She is a phony that should not even be allowed to prosecute a jaywalking ticket. I hope for the best and that AB will be tried as an adult.

vjlaw · #18 11-16-2009, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodibug

I need to put in my vacation time request for the hearing on Wed and I'm not able to confirm anything about when/where.

I am assuming it will be held at the court house, first thing in the morning in Jon Beetam's courtroom. If anyone knows anything different, please let me know.

Probably won't be able to get in, but we'll see what happens.

I think this hearing is at 8 a.m.

Jodibug · #19 11-16-2009, 01:48 PM

Ack! So is it 8am or 1pm??? I have to be at work half the day for some training. I put in for the morning off, so I sure hope it is 8am!

W8nc- we should definitely wear something. Is anyone else planning to go?

Oh, and my vacation time is not yet approved.... so don't count me in for sure yet.

mominjc · #20 11-16-2009, 01:58 PM

I have a trial setting today. Man what I wouldn't give for the date to have been Wed instead of today. (now you sluethers can find out my identity from case net)

As far as the Prenger Center, I have been there myself (not due to criminal actions) but for work. The Center itself is not a large facility. When I went their it had a large room where the kids all ate and had rec time. There were only a few rooms (which I didn't see) where the kids slept. Outside this large room was just a small hallway which had offices for couselors, Juv officers, and some admin people. Then there was a smaller conference-type room in which some proceedings are held. This isn't some horrible place to be held at...nothing like I could only image jail would be like (never been there either). As far as access to internet and such, I wouldn't have a clue.

Jodibug · #21 11-16-2009, 02:00 PM

I have no personal knowledge, but I can't imagine that AB is having the same priveledges as the other children there.

Surely she is in lockdown, for her own protection if for no other reason.

Sure, most kids there can do these things.... (rec room), but I'm pretty sure AB is the only one in for murder 1 right now.

mominjc · #22 11-16-2009, 03:52 PM

Jodibug - yes I agree with you. I just wanted to provide you guys with my knowledge of the inside of the building. I know many people have not been there and I was there day after day for several weeks for work back in 1999.

I also asked my source for more information regarding the teacher that killed himself. (I felt kind of bad probing for more information). After what I was told I truly believe the exact circumstances surrounding his death will NEVER be published in the media. However, I can say that more of what I read makes alot of sense now. Sorry guys, but I am a little concerned about posting what I was told.

Also I can say that what Tricia has posted about her source (last entry in diary, two graves, silk scarf).....my source has also told me the same thing with the exception of a silk scarf. I am not saying a scarf was not used....just my source didn't mention one.

If a mod tells me it is ok to post what I was told about the circumstances of the suidcide then I will post it. Again, I am a local and what I have posted is based upon information I deem reliable from a trusted source but should not be taken as fact.

desquire · #23 11-16-2009, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodibug

Ack! So is it 8am or 1pm??? I have to be at work half the day for some training. I put in for the morning off, so I sure hope it is 8am!

Sorry if I added to any confusion Jodi. I only mentioned that Juvenile hearings USUALLY start at 1. Criminal hearings (adult, not juvenile) USUALLY start at 9. But judges can set their own schedule and this is not a usual case. It would not be suprising at all if the usual schedule and courtroom assignments were juggled to accomodate this hearing and anticipated public turnout.

I should have caveated my previous post and this one by saying that I am not a local and I have never appeared in that court. I have no inside information. I am a lawyer but I'm just making educated guesses based on available information like everyone else here.

Kimster · #24 11-16-2009, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mominjc

Jodibug - yes I agree with you. I just wanted to provide you guys with my knowledge of the inside of the building. I know many people have not been there and I was there day after day for several weeks for work back in 1999.

I also asked my source for more information regarding the teacher that killed himself. (I felt kind of bad probing for more information). After what I was told I truly believe the exact circumstances surrounding his death will NEVER be published in the media. However, I can say that more of what I read makes alot of sense now. Sorry guys, but I am a little concerned about posting what I was told.

Also I can say that what Tricia has posted about her source (last entry in diary, two graves, silk scarf).....my source has also told me the same thing with the exception of a silk scarf. I am not saying a scarf was not used....just my source didn't mention one.

If a mod tells me it is ok to post what I was told about the circumstances of the suidcide then I will post it. Again, I am a local and what I have posted is based upon information I deem reliable from a trusted source but should not be taken as fact.

Hi there!!! If you would write to Tricia, she can give you the perimeters of posting as a local. She will need to clear you and then you will have more freedom to post what you have heard. Otherwise, your posts could be deemed as "rumors" and not allowed. Her email: tgrif@xmission.com

and great to have you on our team!!!

tgrlaw · #25 11-16-2009, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mominjc

I also asked my source for more information regarding the teacher that killed himself. (I felt kind of bad probing for more information). After what I was told I truly believe the exact circumstances surrounding his death will NEVER be published in the media. However, I can say that more of what I read makes alot of sense now. Sorry guys, but I am a little concerned about posting what I was told.

I completely understand the hesitation. I had heard his suicide was related from a fairly reliable source, and so have others, yet I was hesistant to bring that back to this forum, too. I don't know about his involvement beyond his knowledge of the suspects wrtitings and that he did apparently inform LE during the search.

I'm not sure any other information about the teacher's involvement is necessary to understand the timeline of the invesitgation or possible motive/planning of the crime.

HOWEVER, I believe the circumstances surrounding his involvement and the events that followed, raise some serious questions that this particular community need answered. Given how this town operates, I don't expect the NT or local TV to probe this too much either.