If your child were murdered…

[txsvicki]

I don't think the Ramseys' actions that day were all that suspicious, but they fit their life and personalities:

John being in a different room with the men is not odd. He's very intelligent and was probably trying to think of what to do. John and Patsy spent so much time with friends and apart. His actions seem like what a man with his lifestyle, money, and occupation could do.

Patsy looking through splayed fingers doesn't seem odd.

John could already tell that they were suspected and wanted help.

And, if a crazed unknown, uncaught killer murdered one of my family I definitely would not be spewing venomous hatred and threats over the airways about him. I blame the ridiculous "forgiveness" of the killer on the trend of new age thinking preachers telling followers that they have to forgive.

Burke was just a kid and couldn't process it all.

John wanting to get his family out of there doesn't seem odd either since he had a plane, family elsewhere, and plenty of money.

I think it was normal to check his mail for any clues, if he did.

Some other things they did during and after do seem strange, but many of the things that people make so much of don't seem that out of place to me.

[Ames]

Originally Posted by txsvicki

I don't think the Ramseys' actions that day were all that suspicious, but they fit their life and personalities:

John being in a different room with the men is not odd. He's very intelligent and was probably trying to think of what to do. John and Patsy spent so much time with friends and apart. His actions seem like what a man with his lifestyle, money, and occupation could do.

Patsy looking through splayed fingers doesn't seem odd.

John could already tell that they were suspected and wanted help.

And, if a crazed unknown, uncaught killer murdered one of my family I definitely would not be spewing venomous hatred and threats over the airways about him. I blame the ridiculous "forgiveness" of the killer on the trend of new age thinking preachers telling followers that they have to forgive.

Burke was just a kid and couldn't process it all.

John wanting to get his family out of there doesn't seem odd either since he had a plane, family elsewhere, and plenty of money.

I think it was normal to check his mail for any clues, if he did.

Some other things they did during and after do seem strange, but many of the things that people make so much of don't seem that out of place to me.

Burke was nine years old....old enough for his parents to have woke him up to ask him if he had seen or heard anything....but they didn't. If they really thought that an intruder had entered their home, and kidnapped their daughter...where was their concern for Burke? Afterall, the "kidnapper" could be hiding out in Burke's room...in his closet, under his bed...etc. If it had of been a true kidnapping..they would have not only jerked his butt out of bed, and started asking him questions about what he had seen or heard...but, to also get him out of that room...and with them. I mean...geesh...the intruder could still be in the home!!! No proof that the small foreign faction isn't still around somewhere. While John was in another room, with his friends...Patsy was sitting on the couch with HER friends, looking through a photo album of JonBenet's pictures. When John "found" JB, and Fleet was right behind him....Fleet ran up the stairs of the basement, screaming.."WE FOUND HER! CALL AN AMBULANCE!". If you heard those words, would you just assume that your "kidnapped" daughter had been murdered? Or would you think..."OMG, she has been found, and she is hurt very badly, I must get to her, and see if I can help her!" Patsy just sat there...didn't even budge. Do you not find that just the least bit odd?? Fleet did say....Call an ambulance, afterall. NOT...WE FOUND HER! SHE'S DEAD!!

[Sophie]

There have been some excellent examples of suspect behaviour already mentioned on the thread. The five things that always raise red flags for me are:

1. Patsy pretending to cry while 'eyeballing' Officer French through splayed fingers.

2. Their not giving a thought to the legitimacy of the threats in the RN. According to their own testimony, they didn't consider not calling the police despite the dread threats in the RN. I imagine that most people would conclude that they needed help from LE but they would use mobile phones that weren't capable of being monitored and would explain the need for discretion to the police. This can't be explained by pure panic because John recounts his first thought on reading the RN to be that at least he can do something about this whereas he couldn't do anything to help Beth. He shows that he was thinking clearly early on. This mistake was compounded by their calling for assistance from friends.

3. Patsy's assumption that JBR was dead when FW initially tried to call an ambulance, something which would make most mothers come running in case they could help their baby.

4. The demeanour of the Ramseys persuading one of the voluntary ladies that they were divorced. No effort to comfort each other, blame each other, cry togther etc.

5. The 'Raise my baby' outburst has the patina of a rehearsed, dramatic reaction.

[Ames]

Originally Posted by Sophie

There have been some excellent examples of suspect behaviour already mentioned on the thread. The five things that always raise red flags for me are:

1. Patsy pretending to cry while 'eyeballing' Officer French through splayed fingers.

2. Their not giving a thought to the legitimacy of the threats in the RN. According to their own testimony, they didn't consider not calling the police despite the dread threats in the RN. I imagine that most people would conclude that they needed help from LE but they would use mobile phones that weren't capable of being monitored and would explain the need for discretion to the police. This can't be explained by pure panic because John recounts his first thought on reading the RN to be that at least he can do something about this whereas he couldn't do anything to help Beth. He shows that he was thinking clearly early on. This mistake was compounded by their calling for assistance from friends.

3. Patsy's assumption that JBR was dead when FW initially tried to call an ambulance, something which would make most mothers come running in case they could help their baby.

4. The demeanour of the Ramseys persuading one of the voluntary ladies that they were divorced. No effort to comfort each other, blame each other, cry togther etc.

5. The 'Raise my baby' outburst has the patina of a rehearsed, dramatic reaction.

I totally agree with them all. ONE more thing that even Haney thought was odd, when he interviewed Patsy. She said more than once that after she found the RN, and let John read it...that he remained calm, cool and collected. Haney wondered....why then was "hysterical" Patsy the one to call 911? Didn't make any sense to him....and it makes no sense to me. Have you read that part of the interview? If not, I will find it for you. I thought that it was very interesting.

[Sophie]

Thank you, Ames. I don't think I have seen that part of the interview.

[Mysteeri]

Originally Posted by Ames

John was missing for two hours...."checking his mail". How long does it take to check your mail? Would you check your mail for two hours, when the "kidnapper" that has your child, said that he would be calling to give your further instructions?? Or would you be planted right there near a phone?

Well, I`m not sure he was missing for two hours, there`s conflicting information. The problem is, I don`t know what is true. To me there`s not any real, unbiased evidence of incriminating behaviour from that morning, just interpretation. moo.

[DeeDee249]

Originally Posted by Mysteeri

Well, I`m not sure he was missing for two hours, there`s conflicting information. The problem is, I don`t know what is true. To me there`s not any real, unbiased evidence of incriminating behaviour from that morning, just interpretation. moo.

It was Detective Linda Arndt who stated JR was missing two hours, between 10 am and noon, specifically.

[Sophie]

Originally Posted by DeeDee249

It was Detective Linda Arndt who stated JR was missing two hours, between 10 am and noon, specifically.

The mind boggles to think of what he could have done during that time......
Possibly more than Pam did during her one woman raid.

[cynic]

"I never considered not cooperating and I never considered hiring a lawyer. We bring these children into this world and its our duty then to do whatever we can to protect them and that includes totally cooperating with law enforcement right down the line"
"It is only when you hire a lawyer that it becomes apparent, if not obvious that you are hiding something"
"I don't believe there was an intruder inside the Ramsey house that evening I believe the evidence as we know it is pretty clear-cut. The only logical explanation for that ransom note is if it came from within the household itself."
-Mark Klaas

YouTube

YouTube

[Ames]

Originally Posted by cynic

"I never considered not cooperating and I never considered hiring a lawyer. We bring these children into this world and its our duty then to do whatever we can to protect them and that includes totally cooperating with law enforcement right down the line"
"It is only when you hire a lawyer that it becomes apparent, if not obvious that you are hiding something"
"I don't believe there was an intruder inside the Ramsey house that evening I believe the evidence as we know it is pretty clear-cut. The only logical explanation for that ransom note is if it came from within the household itself."
-Mark Klaas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuu_IfYOX7U

I totally agree. I was on a chat board one time with Mark Klaas, and asked him about the JBR case. And he said the same thing to me, as your quote from him. He said, "No intruder, it was someone that lived in that house".

[Sophie]

The other issue is that the Ramseys supposedly believe that this is the work of a paedophile who is a danger to children (although the recent statement seemed to have absorbed some of HOTYH's theory) and they warned friends to keep their babies 'close.' If they honestly believe this, they have a responsibility to other children to help locate the killer and keep the fires of justice burning. They can forgive the killer but that doesn't preclude a genuine attempt to find him - to protect others and get him the help they obviously think he needs.

[Sophie]

Originally Posted by cynic

"I never considered not cooperating and I never considered hiring a lawyer. We bring these children into this world and its our duty then to do whatever we can to protect them and that includes totally cooperating with law enforcement right down the line"
"It is only when you hire a lawyer that it becomes apparent, if not obvious that you are hiding something"
"I don't believe there was an intruder inside the Ramsey house that evening I believe the evidence as we know it is pretty clear-cut. The only logical explanation for that ransom note is if it came from within the household itself."
-Mark Klaas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuu_IfYOX7U

Cynic, I don't know whether you are following the Caylee Anthony case on the forum but there's a lawyer over there who expresses that very same opinion about lawyering up. Contrary to what some IDI would have you believe, it isn't just the legal laiety who see something odd about lawyering up so early.

[cynic]

Originally Posted by Ames

I totally agree. I was on a chat board one time with Mark Klaas, and asked him about the JBR case. And he said the same thing to me, as your quote from him. He said, "No intruder, it was someone that lived in that house".

Mark Klaas is awesome and truly a class act (no pun intended). He is essentially the “anti-Ramsey."

[cynic]

Originally Posted by Sophie

Cynic, I don't know whether you are following the Caylee Anthony case on the forum but there's a lawyer over there who expresses that very same opinion about lawyering up. Contrary to what some IDI would have you believe, it isn't just the legal laiety who see something odd about lawyering up so early.

Yes I am following the Anthony case, and I did notice that lawyer’s remarks regarding “lawyering up.”
It was good to hear that from a lawyer.

[SuperDave]

Originally Posted by Sophie

The other issue is that the Ramseys supposedly believe that this is the work of a paedophile who is a danger to children (although the recent statement seemed to have absorbed some of HOTYH's theory) and they warned friends to keep their babies 'close.' If they honestly believe this, they have a responsibility to other children to help locate the killer and keep the fires of justice burning. They can forgive the killer but that doesn't preclude a genuine attempt to find him - to protect others and get him the help they obviously think he needs.

Sophie, you have just inspired me.

[KariKae]

Originally Posted by EastCoast

, who, after their child was abducted would try to plan a flight out? That is not right. I would not even be able to think straight.

John was the CEO of a large company. If, upon learning of JonBenet's death, he just wanted to get out of there, why wouldn't he delegate the duty to one of his friends who were there to support them? It seems like a very menial task to be performing in the circumstances.

[Ames]

Originally Posted by cynic

Mark Klaas is awesome and truly a class act (no pun intended). He is essentially the “anti-Ramsey."

LOL..yep he is a class act! I love to watch him on Nancy Grace...he always says what I am thinking.

[madeleine]

Talking about reactions...I am sorry but what she answers is pure BS

THOMAS HANEY: There were like

22 three days, and the first two days were pretty

23 basic questions, but on the third day, there

24 were questions where the discussion was around

25 JonBenet and the death. And I am no

0297

1 psychologist, psychiatrist, but immediately

2 noticed a change in Burke and his demeanor.

3 He's curled up on the chair something like this,

4 not sitting like this, but a chair like this,

5 and he's half in a fetal position and it seems

6 to be a real struggle, a real difficult time.

7 I am wondering if you had noticed

8 anything similar, any changes?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I may have --

10 I have had him in therapy just for this reason.

11 So that, I mean, the therapist explained to me

12 that -- that Burke may be trying to hold it

13 together and be real strong for John and I, you

14 know. And because I was saying it seemed to me

15 like he needs to let it out, you know.

16 He said, well, children handle

17 things differently, you know, than adults. And

18 he doesn't -- he thinks Burke is fine. So I

19 have to just take him at -- I respect his

20 opinion, Dr. Jaffe.

21 But no, I have not -- I have not

22 directly, you know, noticed anything.



Okay,so Haney describes a troubled Burke and she replies "I have had him in therapy just for this reason. But then "I have not directly, you know, noticed anything."

Duh.

[Sophie]

Originally Posted by madeleine

Talking about reactions...I am sorry but what she answers is pure BS

THOMAS HANEY: There were like

22 three days, and the first two days were pretty

23 basic questions, but on the third day, there

24 were questions where the discussion was around

25 JonBenet and the death. And I am no

0297

1 psychologist, psychiatrist, but immediately

2 noticed a change in Burke and his demeanor.

3 He's curled up on the chair something like this,

4 not sitting like this, but a chair like this,

5 and he's half in a fetal position and it seems

6 to be a real struggle, a real difficult time.

7 I am wondering if you had noticed

8 anything similar, any changes?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I may have --

10 I have had him in therapy just for this reason.

11 So that, I mean, the therapist explained to me

12 that -- that Burke may be trying to hold it

13 together and be real strong for John and I, you

14 know. And because I was saying it seemed to me

15 like he needs to let it out, you know.

16 He said, well, children handle

17 things differently, you know, than adults. And

18 he doesn't -- he thinks Burke is fine. So I

19 have to just take him at -- I respect his

20 opinion, Dr. Jaffe.

21 But no, I have not -- I have not

22 directly, you know, noticed anything.



Okay,so Haney describes a troubled Burke and she replies "I have had him in therapy just for this reason. But then "I have not directly, you know, noticed anything."

Duh.

Blimey, you're sharp at the moment, Madeleine! You could publish a companion to the interviews!

[madeleine]

Originally Posted by Sophie

Blimey, you're sharp at the moment, Madeleine! You could publish a companion to the interviews!

Yep,there's always something interesting about these interviews.
This is so ridiculous.Would a shrink know better than the MOTHER if a kid is FINE or NOT???

And this :"Burke may be trying to hold it together and be real strong for John and I,"


Hello,the kid was 9 years old?!And not exactly the emotional ,brave type of kid.IMO

[Sophie]

Originally Posted by madeleine

Yep,there's always something interesting about these interviews.
This is so ridiculous.Would a shrink know better than the MOTHER if a kid is FINE or NOT???

And this :"Burke may be trying to hold it together and be real strong for John and I,"


Hello,the kid was 9 years old?!And not exactly the emotional ,brave type of kid.IMO

You're right - it makes no sense at all. Just wondering whether it would be worth starting a new thread on the interviews and we could go through them from start to finish to see what we spot. I know it's been done but who knows what might show up after this time?

[Tadpole12]

Originally Posted by madeleine

Yep,there's always something interesting about these interviews.
This is so ridiculous.Would a shrink know better than the MOTHER if a kid is FINE or NOT???

And this :"Burke may be trying to hold it together and be real strong for John and I,"


Hello,the kid was 9 years old?!And not exactly the emotional ,brave type of kid.IMO

Hi madeleine.

ty for posting the interview snippets!

hmmm.


"12 that -- that Burke may be trying to hold it

13 together and be real strong for John and I, you ..."


Children do take on 'roles' post trauma, to cope, and within a dysfunctional family these coping skills are well established.

[Tadpole12]

Originally Posted by Sophie

The other issue is that the Ramseys supposedly believe that this is the work of a paedophile who is a danger to children (although the recent statement seemed to have absorbed some of HOTYH's theory) and they warned friends to keep their babies 'close.' If they honestly believe this, they have a responsibility to other children to help locate the killer and keep the fires of justice burning. They can forgive the killer but that doesn't preclude a genuine attempt to find him - to protect others and get him the help they obviously think he needs.

Hi Sophie.

I wonder what the feel is ....the atmosphere in the neighbourhood come Christmas and the anniversary of JBR's death; are the neighbours well secured, armed, vigil?
Perhaps Jason's lurking in the .....



Wonder what exactly is the neighbouhood lore.

[slug]

If an IDI and it was not a personal attack on a member of the family it is unlikely that it would be a one off, so unless the intruder died soon after is is surprising that no other case pulled up the same DNA IMO.
So yes i'm surprised that the ramsey's weren't shouting from the rooftops find this person before he does it again.
And i think that if i was living near there at the time i would be very worried about the safty of children in the neighbourhood.

[cynic]

I came across this - thought it was good:

OK, that's enough. For nearly five months, I've withheld judgment and comment on this sordid episode because I just couldn't figure out who the Creeps were. A little girl was dead, her family was acting very weird and nobody was making any progress towards finding the killer. But this has gone on long enough and everyone involved is smelling really foul, especially the multi-millionaire parents, John and Patricia Ramsey
…What kind of parents would dress up their daughter like that and put her on display?
Answer: The same kind of parents whose first move after their daughter's murder is to hire an army of lawyers, investigators and media consultants. The kind who refuse to speak to the police investigating the murder because they were "insulted" at being considered suspects. The kind who hold an invitation-only press conference where they deny any involvement in the crime while looking like two kids doing the "I didn't break the lamp, Daddy, it just fell over by itself" routine. And the kind who this week put an ad in the paper offering a $100,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of the killer and warning of an adult male who was approaching children in the Boulder area around the time of the murder. Any previous evidence of such a guy? If there was, I'll bet he looked a lot like John Ramsey.
…And what is this business of negotiating with suspects about conditions under which they will consent to speak to the police? Is this the special millionaire pampering treatment? If you or I were suspects in such a case, the cops would break down our door, screaming "Up against the wall, hands behind your head..." and then haul us downtown where we'd be interrogated …even OJ was handcuffed and brought down to the station for questioning.
http://www.johnmonty.com/cotw/cw970510.htm