MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martin's Thread #13

[imamaze]

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Brought over from previous thread posted by Hoppy.

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#12

#12

Please Continue...

[W8nC]

Can I be first?



LOL, okay....done :-)

[Csquare]

Originally Posted by W8nC

Can I be first?



LOL, okay....done :-)

Cheater

[MDATCA]

I think that AB was wanting to talk about it. She had held it in for as long as she could. She was excited and wanted to "brag" about it. I brought this up before, I would love to know her demeanor on the walk to show them the grave site and if she seemed excited at seeing the site again. I doubt that she would have had a chance to return there with LE in the area prior to her taking them there. If her confession turns out to be inadmissable it is a shame. IMO even if there was an atty present she would have ran her mouth. The atty would be the "authority" she doesn't listen to in that situation. Whoever was asking her about her actions and giving her the attention about it would be her "buddy". I don't doubt that LE would use her own attitude to their advantage. But that brings us back to the mental illness.

[Csquare]

Originally Posted by W8nC

Can I be first?



LOL, okay....done :-)

Technically you were second. HEHEHE sorry couldn't resist.

[JLMcKenna83]

Originally Posted by MDATCA

I think that AB was wanting to talk about it. She had held it in for as long as she could. She was excited and wanted to "brag" about it. I brought this up before, I would love to know her demeanor on the walk to show them the grave site and if she seemed excited at seeing the site again. I doubt that she would have had a chance to return there with LE in the area prior to her taking them there. If her confession turns out to be inadmissable it is a shame. IMO even if there was an atty present she would have ran her mouth. The atty would be the "authority" she doesn't listen to in that situation. Whoever was asking her about her actions and giving her the attention about it would be her "buddy". I don't doubt that LE would use her own attitude to their advantage. But that brings us back to the mental illness.

I was going to bring this over. I'd love to see if she was cocky and proud as she led them to the place they had already searched.. Almost like.. "HA!" Or if she was dragging her butt, knowing that she was about to go to jail, and if she could have just kept her trap shut, they would have never found her..

Search teams searched where Elizabeth had been buried thoroughly. If Alyssa just could have kept it to herself, she'd be a free girl right now..

I guess loose lips really do sink ships..

[W8nC]

Originally Posted by Csquare

Technically you were second. HEHEHE sorry couldn't resist.

[Csquare]

Originally Posted by W8nC

OK OK you win. LOL

[PAXIMUS]

Originally Posted by MDATCA

I think that AB was wanting to talk about it. She had held it in for as long as she could. She was excited and wanted to "brag" about it. I brought this up before, I would love to know her demeanor on the walk to show them the grave site and if she seemed excited at seeing the site again. I doubt that she would have had a chance to return there with LE in the area prior to her taking them there. If her confession turns out to be inadmissable it is a shame. IMO even if there was an atty present she would have ran her mouth. The atty would be the "authority" she doesn't listen to in that situation. Whoever was asking her about her actions and giving her the attention about it would be her "buddy". I don't doubt that LE would use her own attitude to their advantage. But that brings us back to the mental illness.

I just want to comment one last time before I take my self imposed exile from this thread for a while that I am indeed very suspicous of LE for many reasons. When I finished law school I wanted nothing more than to rid the streets of criminals and I went to work for the DAs office as a prosecutor believe it or not, after a few years of that I quickly began to lose interest due to the politically motivated nature of many prosecutions, the DA is an elected official and many times the decisions to prosecute are based on politics and sometimes very sloppy police work. I soon left that profession and developed a great distaste for our legal system and pursued a career in journalism which is what I do now, not long ago I renewed my bar membership and started a part time criminal defense practice that mostly deals with DUI representation and other small issues, I dont take major cases because I dont have the time to work two careers but as time goes by I will build up my practice and start working bigger cases. My point in all of this is that I have seen both sides of the justice system and while there are a lot of shady defense attorneys out there, there are just as many shady prosecutors working for an elected DA whose job security depends on prosecuting as many people as possible even if it means putting away people who may sometimes be innocent and yes I have a major problem with that and I dont shy away from expressing it.

Carry on my friends and keep up the good work.

[JLMcKenna83]

So now, we'll probably have to wait until the trial for more evidence to pick apart.. unless perhaps there will be disclosure hearings like with Casey Anthony.. hmmm.. anyone know if that could possibly happen?

[eyes4crime]

I am always so appreciative of criminal defense attorneys - they make sure we are afforded our Constitutional rights. Actually, I'm appreciative of all those who value our Constitution.

[Csquare]

Originally Posted by JLMcKenna83

So now, we'll probably have to wait until the trial for more evidence to pick apart.. unless perhaps there will be disclosure hearings like with Casey Anthony.. hmmm.. anyone know if that could possibly happen?

I am not sure. Is that different from pre trial hearing?

[JLMcKenna83]

Originally Posted by PAXIMUS

I just want to comment one last time before I take my self imposed exile from this thread for a while that I am indeed very suspicous of LE for many reasons. When I finished law school I wanted nothing more than to rid the streets of criminals and I want to work for the DAs office as a prosecutor believe it or not, after a few years of that I quickly began to lose interest due to the politically motivated nature of many prosecutions, the DA is an elected official and many times the decisions to prosecute are based on politics and sometimes very sloppy police work. I soon left that profession and developed a great distaste for our legal system and pursued a career in journalism which is what I do now, not long ago I renewed my bar membership and started a part time criminal defense practice that mostly deals with DUI representation and other small issues, I dont take major cases because I dont have the time to work two careers but as time goes by I will build up my practice and start working bigger cases. My point in all of this is that I have seen both sides of the justice system and while there are a lot of shady defense attorneys out there, there are just as many shadey prosecutors working of an elected DA whose job security depends on prosecuting as many people as possible even if it means putting away people who may sometimes be innocent and yes I have a major problem with that and I dont shy away from expressing it.

Carry on my friends and keep up the good work.

I hope that I have said nothing to offend you. I agree that there is a sort of crookedness on both sides of the spectrum when it comes to the law, and I believe that 90% of it has to do with the politics of it.

And with that being said, I say this... MY OPINION.

I firmly believe that Alyssa Bustamante killed Elizabeth Olten in cold blood. I also believe that her confession and any evidence being used in this matter has been obtained legally and without any sort of deception. As I have stated before, Alyssa's family knows how the judicial system works. Her parents have both been in prison, so they have obviously been through a trial before. If anything was amiss in the way that LE was handling this case, I believe it would have been brought up by now. And we haven't heard anything of it.. yet. With a crime as serious and as sensitive as this, I fully trust that LE is handling this with all of the proper procedures. This is a major major case for them, and I am positive that they don't want to blow it on something as stupid as a technicality.

Now, Paximus, if you would still like your little vacation from the thread, that is your choice, and I hope you will re-join us at some point. But if you would like to stay, and continue to be a part of what were doing here, then you are also more than welcome to do that.

[JLMcKenna83]

Originally Posted by Csquare

I am not sure. Is that different from pre trial hearing?

I know everytime that there is a disclosure hearing in the Anthony case, we gets piles and piles of evidence and what not to sift through...

[W8nC]

Originally Posted by JLMcKenna83

So now, we'll probably have to wait until the trial for more evidence to pick apart.. unless perhaps there will be disclosure hearings like with Casey Anthony.. hmmm.. anyone know if that could possibly happen?

Lol, we don't have to WAIT for anything! We can talk about how Wednesday is the top day for murders, or how the color pink enrages people on Prozac. What about grandma's cholesteral levels, we haven't discussed that yet!

Nothing NEW has come out on this case since the PD asked to have AB sent to a mental hospital on 11/20, and we managed to generate nearly 10 pages of discussion today.

With that said, I need to leave...I'll catch up in the morning. Hope I don't miss anything!! Good night all!

[vjlaw]

Originally Posted by JLMcKenna83

I know everytime that there is a disclosure hearing in the Anthony case, we gets piles and piles of evidence and what not to sift through...

Yeh, I think I am going out on a limb here and say I am pretty sure that won't happen in Missouri.

[PAXIMUS]

Originally Posted by JLMcKenna83

I hope that I have said nothing to offend you. I agree that there is a sort of crookedness on both sides of the spectrum when it comes to the law, and I believe that 90% of it has to do with the politics of it.

And with that being said, I say this... MY OPINION.

I firmly believe that Alyssa Bustamante killed Elizabeth Olten in cold blood. I also believe that her confession and any evidence being used in this matter has been obtained legally and without any sort of deception. As I have stated before, Alyssa's family knows how the judicial system works. Her parents have both been in prison, so they have obviously been through a trial before. If anything was amiss in the way that LE was handling this case, I believe it would have been brought up by now. And we haven't heard anything of it.. yet. With a crime as serious and as sensitive as this, I fully trust that LE is handling this with all of the proper procedures. This is a major major case for them, and I am positive that they don't want to blow it on something as stupid as a technicality.

Now, Paximus, if you would still like your little vacation from the thread, that is your choice, and I hope you will re-join us at some point. But if you would like to stay, and continue to be a part of what were doing here, then you are also more than welcome to do that.

Thanks for that. I am not leaving the thread I just wanted things to cool down a little, it was getting a little passionate and I dont want to lose any of our comrades to a ban because of strong opinions on both sides of this issue. Like I said before she is a minor so LE needs parental consent to talk to her, if the GP gave LE consent to speak to her and the GP advised her to talk without an atty present than does present a problem with her confession and it may be something that could overturn any conviction on appeal. IF she did have an atty present then I am concerned that the atty would let her speak freely enough to LE to say something like " I just wanted to know what it feels like to kill someone." IMO if she was allowed to say that with an atty present I would have to question her lawyers competence and again that could pose a problem with the confession. When dealing with issues like this the confession is not what matters to me it is how it is obtained, if a confession has to be thrown out and a guilty person walks free in order to uphold the legal process that both the defense and prosecution MUST follow then I have no problem with that because it is that process that protects you and I and everyone on this forum from being railroaded and accused of crimes we may not have committed. I am a big picture guy thats all.


It may turn out that this entire argument is a moot point but I want to find out myself and I will do so, as a tax paying citizen I have a right to contact those who work for me and ask them if they are doing their jobs and if they arent then it is the job of the media to let the people know about that so that it doesnt continue.

Anyway thanks for the support and I enjoy each and every one of your opinions here, this is a unique group of some very sharp people who all want justice and fairness for all involved.

[PAXIMUS]

Originally Posted by JLMcKenna83

I know everytime that there is a disclosure hearing in the Anthony case, we gets piles and piles of evidence and what not to sift through...

The Anthony case is utter madness and I dont see this case becoming even remotely close to what that case has become but it will be a bitter fight to the end just because she is a minor being tried as an adult and those involved will be very careful to make sure things are done right, at least they are supposed to.

[human]

Paximus, I just have a little bit of a snarky remark. You said that you don't live in MO so technically you are not a taxpayer that would be paying for the AB case.

[PAXIMUS]

Originally Posted by human

Paximus, I just have a little bit of a snarky remark. You said that you don't live in MO so technically you are not a taxpayer that would be paying for the AB case.

Ok you got me there =)

[JLMcKenna83]

Alright all I'm off to bed..

some speed bumps tonight.. hopefully we're back on track in the am

Night!

[ynotdivein]

Whaaaaat? Whatwhatwhat?

My most esteemed fellow sleuthers, there are

- so many "if's" in this case, plus
- so many of us with deep yet varied experience/credentials (yes including Life Experience Credentials) relating to what we DO know about this case, plus
- the fact that we are a passionate bunch, plus
- the knowledge that we likely won't know more factually until the next hearing and beyond,

that it seems to me the best we can do is stick to what we do know, agree to disagree, keep being respectful of one another, and continue to refine our individual positions based on one another's considered input.

Was amazed to see how many pages were filled just today (thanks W8nC for the count!) and look forward to catching up on what I missed, having skimmed ahead in an ineffectual attempt to catch up. Have to agree with I think it was Andres who pointed out that we are all here for essentially the same reasons. Magnetizing/polarizing case. Lack of immediate info is hard to take. Fertile field for opposing theories and therefore disagreements to take root.

And if I may, a clarifying question: it is my understanding that MO does not have Sunshine Laws, and that we should not expect any doc releases prior to trial. Can any WSer verify or disverify this for me? Many thanks in advance, and to all who are following this case in whatever capacity.

[Jodibug]

Originally Posted by PAXIMUS

I just want to comment one last time before I take my self imposed exile from this thread for a while that I am indeed very suspicous of LE for many reasons. When I finished law school I wanted nothing more than to rid the streets of criminals and I went to work for the DAs office as a prosecutor believe it or not, after a few years of that I quickly began to lose interest due to the politically motivated nature of many prosecutions, the DA is an elected official and many times the decisions to prosecute are based on politics and sometimes very sloppy police work. I soon left that profession and developed a great distaste for our legal system and pursued a career in journalism which is what I do now, not long ago I renewed my bar membership and started a part time criminal defense practice that mostly deals with DUI representation and other small issues, I dont take major cases because I dont have the time to work two careers but as time goes by I will build up my practice and start working bigger cases. My point in all of this is that I have seen both sides of the justice system and while there are a lot of shady defense attorneys out there, there are just as many shady prosecutors working for an elected DA whose job security depends on prosecuting as many people as possible even if it means putting away people who may sometimes be innocent and yes I have a major problem with that and I dont shy away from expressing it.

Carry on my friends and keep up the good work.

Sorry, not buying it. I'm not saying that it has never happened.... but I don't think that political prosecutions are prevalent. As a taxpayer, I am not willing to foot the bill to house innocent people. I don't think many other taxpayers would be either.

[danni]

I think the thing that burns my arse with a TENY TINY LITTLE FLAME is the fact that criminals, acused, convicted, whatever the case may be have more rights, and amenities than the victims do. And it seems as if very few people care. Oh poor so and so she had this or he had this. So and so grew up in a bad home. So and so's mom was smokin crack when she was pregnant.

Criminal-
We (the tax payers of the state) more often than not pay for their defense.
We pay for them to be housed in whatever facility they are being kept at.
We pay for their food.
We pay for their food to be cooked.
We pay for their health care.
We pay for their medication.
We pay for their electric, sewage, water, cable tv.
We pay for their clothing. (they walk around in nice thick Carhartt type coat during the winter)
We pay for their laundry to be done.
We pay for their basketball hoops, weights, bats, baseballs, tv's, and yes even the NETFLIX they watch on the weekend (bet ya didn't know that did ya?)
average cost of a first degree murder trial (w/o death penalty) $320,000.
Averal cost of housing a prisoner for a year $45,000.

If a 15 year old female criminal serving LOWP lives to the average life expectancy (80 years old) We will have paid an average of $2,925,000 just to HOUSE her. If you want to add insult to injury you can add the $320,000 to that for the trail and conviction.
$3,245,000

Family of a murder victim-
More often than not they have to ask for donations to bury their loved one because murder is an unexpected death, not something you can save for.
They deal with depression and many other issues surounding the death of their loved one. Who pays for their meds? Either they do or they do without! We make them relive this horrible time in thier life by allowing the murderer to plead not guilty even though they have confessed.
Then if that doesn't beat all, they in the long run are paying for the POS that killed their family member to live better with all the pleasures in life listed above!

My opinion, I am allowed to have one these days right?
Patti deserves to pull the lever that releases the door that causes a rope to tighten around Alyssa's neck!
Think it p!$%es me off.
That is an understatement!

[droptoplesabre]

Originally Posted by danni

I think the thing that burns my arse with a TENY TINY LITTLE FLAME is the fact that criminals, acused, convicted, whatever the case may be have more rights, and amenities than the victims do. And it seems as if very few people care. Oh poor so and so she had this or he had this. So and so grew up in a bad home. So and so's mom was smokin crack when she was pregnant.

Criminal-
We (the tax payers of the state) more often than not pay for their defense.
We pay for them to be housed in whatever facility they are being kept at.
We pay for their food.
We pay for their food to be cooked.
We pay for their health care.
We pay for their medication.
We pay for their electric, sewage, water, cable tv.
We pay for their clothing. (they walk around in nice thick Carhartt type coat during the winter)
We pay for their laundry to be done.
We pay for their basketball hoops, weights, bats, baseballs, tv's, and yes even the NETFLIX they watch on the weekend (bet ya didn't know that did ya?)
average cost of a first degree murder trial (w/o death penalty) $320,000.
Averal cost of housing a prisoner for a year $45,000.

If a 15 year old female criminal serving LOWP lives to the average life expectancy (80 years old) We will have paid an average of $2,925,000 just to HOUSE her. If you want to add insult to injury you can add the $320,000 to that for the trail and conviction.
$3,245,000

Family of a murder victim-
More often than not they have to ask for donations to bury their loved one because murder is an unexpected death, not something you can save for.
They deal with depression and many other issues surounding the death of their loved one. Who pays for their meds? Either they do or they do without! We make them relive this horrible time in thier life by allowing the murderer to plead not guilty even though they have confessed.
Then if that doesn't beat all, they in the long run are paying for the POS that killed their family member to live better with all the pleasures in life listed above!

My opinion, I am allowed to have one these days right?
Patti deserves to pull the lever that releases the door that causes a rope to tighten around Alyssa's neck!
Think it p!$%es me off.
That is an understatement!

bravo danni,,bravo,well said,,IMO.