MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martin's Thread #14

[imamaze]

Terms of Service Short Plain Language Version

Terms of Service Short Plain Language Version

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Please Continue

[Gray]

Regarding this post here:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martin's Thread #13

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martin's Thread #13

I know that the judge has the authority to change the venue and to decide where it will be. If there is overwhelming negativity coming from Springfield as well, couldn't that influence the judge to decide elsewhere?

I know nothing about law, so I'm just thinking out loud.

[AndresEscobar]

Originally Posted by Gray

Regarding this post here: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martin's Thread #13

I know that the judge has the authority to change the venue and to decide where it will be. If there is overwhelming negativity coming from Springfield as well, couldn't that influence the judge to decide elsewhere?

I know nothing about law, so I'm just thinking out loud.

Oh, i thought from the text in your post you thought the lawyers got to pick it.

Basically, the judge will make a strong effort to pick a place where there is likely to be less prejudice. If Springfield also seems to have a lot of negative press coverage, it will probably not go there.

But, it's again, its a question of degree. No one likes what AB did, but since AB is facing LWOP there is going to be an effort to make sure that they get the trial right. Otherwise, AB's appeal will be stronger.

[emeraldeyes85]

A 15 year old isnt an adult neither emotionally, physically or mentally. They are a lot less mentally developed to the point, as an adult may, of understanding the consequences of their actions and therefore I believe the court is in error trying her as an adult but I would suspect as in most cases the judge and/or DA are elected officials and that being the case they need to appease those who vote for them on election day, so regardless of what is fair and legal they will likely be more prone to do what the voting community wants them to do rather than do what is right. Such is the legal system in our nation.

AB needs medical care not prison.

[LogicalMinds]

Originally Posted by emeraldeyes85

A 15 year old isnt an adult neither emotionally, physically or mentally. They are a lot less mentally developed to the point, as an adult may, of understanding the consequences of their actions and therefore I believe the court is in error trying her as an adult but I would suspect as in most cases the judge and/or DA are elected officials and that being the case they need to appease those who vote for them on election day, so regardless of what is fair and legal they will likely be more prone to do what the voting community wants them to do rather than do what is right. Such is the legal system in our nation.

AB needs medical care not prison.

Yeah...medical care for at least 30 years IMHO

if she killed your loved one I bet you would think differently

I think she is a danger to society

this is fair and legal...why would you assume otherwise?

she will stand trial as an adult due to the severity of the crime she confessed to

would you like to see her let out at 21 and maybe be your daughter's roommate?? Your co-worker?
Or maybe she could marry your son...would you like her as the mother of your grandkids??

if she was tried as a juvenile she would be let out at 21 with NO record, wiped clean...and that is a danger to society

[emeraldeyes85]

Originally Posted by LogicalMinds

Yeah...medical care for at least 30 years IMHO

if she killed your loved one I bet you would think differently

I think she is a danger to society

this is fair and legal...why would you assume otherwise?

she will stand trial as an adult due to the severity of the crime she confessed to

would you like to see her let out at 21 and maybe be your daughter's roommate?? Your co-worker?
Or maybe she could marry your son...would you like her as the mother of your grandkids??

if she was tried as a juvenile she would be let out at 21 with NO record, wiped clean...and that is a danger to society

I dont know how you got from what I said to what you said BBM. What exactly does that have to do with anything and strangely I have read through some of the past threads and anyone who mentions she should be put in a medical facility instead of prison is asked if they would like to have her come and live with them.

I dont understand that type of reasoning at all but ok.

JMO

[LogicalMinds]

Originally Posted by emeraldeyes85

I dont know how you got from what I said to what you said BBM. What exactly does that have to do with anything and strangely I have read through some of the past threads and anyone who mentions she should be put in a medical facility instead of prison is asked if they would like to have her come and live with them.

I dont understand that type of reasoning at all but ok.

JMO

Hi...what does "BBM" mean?? thanks

You said more than just put her in a medical facility...you were questioning the way she is being tried as an adult

the fact is ..that IF they tried her as a juvenile she would be released at 21 with NO record...and then would be free to go anywhere, do anything, no record at all

you said >>>"therefore I believe the court is in error trying her as an adult but I would suspect as in most cases the judge and/or DA are elected officials and that being the case they need to appease those who vote for them on election day, so regardless of what is fair and legal they will likely be more prone to do what the voting community wants them to do rather than do what is right" (snipped)

it is fair and legal to try her as an adult

and that is your opinon of what is "right"....just your opinion

I happen to think that it is right to try her as an adult...justice for Elizabeth....and safety for the community that would be forced to have her among them at the age of 21, free and clear, no record, IF they had decided to try her as a juvenile

but at any rate, it is a moot point..thank heavens they are trying her as an adult..

this was such a violent and senseless crime, they have a confession, premeditation

the best she can hope for is some sort of plea bargain and they don't even have to be very generous with that...I think they have a slam dunk if she and her lawyers are foolish enough to go to trial

I don't care where they keep her...prison or mental hospital or whatever, just so she is not out in society

[emeraldeyes85]

Originally Posted by LogicalMinds

Hi...what does "BBM" mean?? thanks

You said more than just put her in a medical facility...you were questioning the way she is being tried as an adult

the fact is ..that IF they tried her as a juvenile she would be released at 21 with NO record...and then would be free to go anywhere, do anything, no record at all

you said >>>"therefore I believe the court is in error trying her as an adult but I would suspect as in most cases the judge and/or DA are elected officials and that being the case they need to appease those who vote for them on election day, so regardless of what is fair and legal they will likely be more prone to do what the voting community wants them to do rather than do what is right" (snipped)

it is fair and legal to try her as an adult

and that is your opinon of what is "right"....just your opinion

I happen to think that it is right to try her as an adult...justice for Elizabeth....and safety for the community that would be forced to have her among them at the age of 21, free and clear, no record, IF they had decided to try her as a juvenile

but at any rate, it is a moot point..thank heavens they are trying her as an adult..

this was such a violent and senseless crime, they have a confession, premeditation

the best she can hope for is some sort of plea bargain and they don't even have to be very generous with that...I think they have a slam dunk if she and her lawyers are foolish enough to go to trial

I don't care where they keep her...prison or mental hospital or whatever, just so she is not out in society

Oh sorry about that BBM means Bolded By Me.

Anyway I dont think she should be released at 21 but I think this is a medical issue and she can possibly be rehabilitated at some point. I dont have the answers and she hasnt been convicted yet but I do take issue with trying children as adults, children are not adults. I am a clinical therapist so I can speak with some authority although I do not work with minors in my practice, but at the age of 15 the child is not normally mentally developed well enough to understand the consequences of their actions thats not to say she didnt know right from wrong but I dont think she understood the long term consequences of what she did. Add in to the fact that she was on drugs both legal and illegal, the legal one prozac perhaps worse in some cases than the illegal ones, depending on the person of course, and I think we are dealing with stunted mental development and someone who is mentally and emotionally likely the age of 10-12.

[LogicalMinds]

Originally Posted by emeraldeyes85

Oh sorry about that BBM means Bolded By Me.

Anyway I dont think she should be released at 21 but I think this is a medical issue and she can possibly be rehabilitated at some point. I dont have the answers and she hasnt been convicted yet but I do take issue with trying children as adults, children are not adults. I am a clinical therapist so I can speak with some authority although I do not work with minors in my practice, but at the age of 15 the child is not normally mentally developed well enough to understand the consequences of their actions thats not to say she didnt know right from wrong but I dont think she understood the long term consequences of what she did. Add in to the fact that she was on drugs both legal and illegal, the legal one prozac perhaps worse in some cases than the illegal ones, depending on the person of course, and I think we are dealing with stunted mental development and someone who is mentally and emotionally likely the age of 10-12.

Well unfortunately if they try them as a juvenile they get out at 21 with NO record, no parole no nothing....free and clear

and they don't even have a juvenile facility that would be safe to keep her in...they have a "secure" boys facility for the worst offenders but for girls it seems missiouri only has dorm type/minimum security facilities that she might get out of...and she could also hurt the other girls in there

probably with a plea deal she might get 25 or 30 years

have you seen the case of Michael Hernandez who killed Jamie Gough in Florida?? Google them and see

very similar to this case

Michael and his lawyers turned down a plea deal...and he is now serving life plus 30 years

he killed cause he wanted to...had plans...detailed notes...he had a little "hit" list but ultimately killed his shy friend, a sweet boy who was small and shy....slit his throat and stabbed him 42 ? times in the restroom at school, came back and sat at his desk like nothing happened (he wore a windbreaker and gloves etc that he disposed of)

[Bibliophile]

Originally Posted by emeraldeyes85

A 15 year old isnt an adult neither emotionally, physically or mentally. They are a lot less mentally developed to the point, as an adult may, of understanding the consequences of their actions and therefore I believe the court is in error trying her as an adult ...AB needs medical care not prison.

You have just described at least half of the people in the criminal justice system. AB doesn't have the market cornered on mental illness.

AB also needs to face the consequences of her actions.

The early eighties sounded the death knell for any sort of comprehensive mental health system in this country. If it was headed in a positive direction, it is now a pipe dream. When dealing with people who murder, we can't afford to deal in pipe dreams. We don't have a place that will guarantee the protection of society with an emphasis on treatment. What we have is a prison system that provides some mental health care.

Alyssa knew right from wrong. She was afforded some of the best treatment available. She still chose to commit one of the most heinous crimes the area has ever known. She needs to be locked away from society for a very long time.

[Kimster]

Originally Posted by Bibliophile

You have just described at least half of the people in the criminal justice system. AB doesn't have the market cornered on mental illness.

AB also needs to face the consequences of her actions.

The early eighties sounded the death knell for any sort of comprehensive mental health system in this country. If it was headed in a positive direction, it is now a pipe dream. When dealing with people who murder, we can't afford to deal in pipe dreams. We don't have a place that will guarantee the protection of society with an emphasis on treatment. What we have is a prison system that provides some mental health care.

Alyssa knew right from wrong. She was afforded some of the best treatment available. She still chose to commit one of the most heinous crimes the area has ever known. She needs to be locked away from society for a very long time.

Thank you...I was trying to find these words earlier today and you did it for me, especially the part that was bolded by me.

[emeraldeyes85]

We can agree to disagree my profession is rehabilitation and I have seen it work, the other side is locking people up like animals and it never works, they always come out harder and colder than when they went in.

If our prisons were places of rehabilitation that would be one thing but they are not and not even remotely so. They are barbaric based on a dark ages mentality and an embarassment to any progressive and forward thinking society, which admittedly we are neither, sadly.

[eeyorelrn]

Originally Posted by emeraldeyes85

Oh sorry about that BBM means Bolded By Me.

Anyway I dont think she should be released at 21 but I think this is a medical issue and she can possibly be rehabilitated at some point. I dont have the answers and she hasnt been convicted yet but I do take issue with trying children as adults, children are not adults. I am a clinical therapist so I can speak with some authority although I do not work with minors in my practice, but at the age of 15 the child is not normally mentally developed well enough to understand the consequences of their actions thats not to say she didnt know right from wrong but I dont think she understood the long term consequences of what she did. Add in to the fact that she was on drugs both legal and illegal, the legal one prozac perhaps worse in some cases than the illegal ones, depending on the person of course, and I think we are dealing with stunted mental development and someone who is mentally and emotionally likely the age of 10-12.

Having worked in the Mental Health field myself (and realizing that this may be a little off topic) I am intrigued about your professional opinion as to rehabilitation to the extent that mentally and emotionally her 'age' so to speak would inprove?

[JLMcKenna83]

Originally Posted by emeraldeyes85

Anyway I dont think she should be released at 21 but I think this is a medical issue and she can possibly be rehabilitated at some point. I dont have the answers and she hasnt been convicted yet but I do take issue with trying children as adults, children are not adults. I am a clinical therapist so I can speak with some authority although I do not work with minors in my practice, but at the age of 15 the child is not normally mentally developed well enough to understand the consequences of their actions thats not to say she didnt know right from wrong but I dont think she understood the long term consequences of what she did. Add in to the fact that she was on drugs both legal and illegal, the legal one prozac perhaps worse in some cases than the illegal ones, depending on the person of course, and I think we are dealing with stunted mental development and someone who is mentally and emotionally likely the age of 10-12.

BBM

The illegal drug use is still only a rumor at this point, neither confirmed or denied..

IMO, What she did is heinous. She needs to be locked away and punished for what she did.. no amount of talking to a therapist is going to help her now.. it hasn't for the last few years.

Why should Alyssa get a second chance at life? Elizabeth won't.

[CementPond]

IMO, it has already been proven that rehabilitation does not work for her. She's been receiving help for years and has gone from wanting to only harm herself to harming and causing the death of another. Yeah, seems like that rehab really works. NOT!

[CementPond]

IMO, based on the bold part, the prisoners THEMSELVES are the ones who make it barbaric. It is the prisoners who go around shanking/killing each other and acting like animals. Not the guards or those in charge. So, put the blame where it belongs!

And, if you ask me, the damn prisons are FAR from dark ages anyway. If anything, people in jail have more offered to them than people who are NOT criminals. They get free gym equipment, health and dental care, use of computers, free schooling, etc. FAR from barbaric and being in the dark ages. JMO

And, even if it was, isn't that how jail is supposed to be? It's NOT supposed to be good living. It's supposed to make you NOT want to commit another crime. You should feel like you never want to go back there again. And yet there are many criminals who get out only to commit crimes again just to go back because they had it made in jail. Their words, not mine.

Originally Posted by emeraldeyes85

We can agree to disagree my profession is rehabilitation and I have seen it work, the other side is locking people up like animals and it never works, they always come out harder and colder than when they went in.

If our prisons were places of rehabilitation that would be one thing but they are not and not even remotely so. They are barbaric based on a dark ages mentality and an embarassment to any progressive and forward thinking society, which admittedly we are neither, sadly.

[Jodibug]

Originally Posted by emeraldeyes85

A 15 year old isnt an adult neither emotionally, physically or mentally. They are a lot less mentally developed to the point, as an adult may, of understanding the consequences of their actions and therefore I believe the court is in error trying her as an adult but I would suspect as in most cases the judge and/or DA are elected officials and that being the case they need to appease those who vote for them on election day, so regardless of what is fair and legal they will likely be more prone to do what the voting community wants them to do rather than do what is right. Such is the legal system in our nation.

AB needs medical care not prison.

Then put her in a hospital in your neighborhood.

My neighborhood deserves to be kept safe... and that means her being locked away.

[Jodibug]

Originally Posted by emeraldeyes85

my profession is rehabilitation and I have seen it work.

Please.... by all means, tell us about the times it DIDN'T work.

Cuz' it's really not a gamble I want to take with Alyssa. Two of my kids have gone to school with her, and I don't want her to ever have a chance to be near them again.

[Elley Mae]

I imagine there are lots of "things" that people can/will do that rehabilitation would work to cure that person from doing it again, and that what they did was "wrong". Like they didn't know that before hand. I find it hard to put the two words together. I don't think she is fixable, you can't fix broke.

[Bakersmom]

To everyone who thinks that there is a possibility of rehabilitation... Please open your eyes to the possibility that Alyssa was a very smart girl in her planning, even diabolical. Please consider for a moment that her intellegence made her aware that if she were caught that her age would probably be to her benefit. She obviously was not a misinformed girl. I have a son who is sixteen and his opinion is that she is one scary individual ( that my friends is is an opinion of a peer) She knew better, she knowingly and intentionally did harm and with intent to kill another human being. How do you rehabilitate that? You don't. Something of this magnitude cannot be compared to shoplifting or even experimenting with drugs. The line was crossed from being reckless with your own life into the destruction of another with forthought. There should be no "do-over". You cannot rehabilitate a murderer, pedophile or rapist, it is how their mind works and is programmed to disregard the value of life, so the decision should be to protect society from one who cannot be "fixed"
I wonder to those who believe in rehabilitation, how in the world can you say that you believe in counseling someone like this? Really? At what point would you feel comfortable in releasing her back into society? The prison systems are far from barbaric, 3 meals a day, cable, higher education, medical and dental. This is hardly barbaric as homeless shelters have far less ameneties and are trying to do the right thing for law abiding citizens who have fallen on hard times.
IMHO as always - When the value of human life is questioned, you cannot make someone value it over the age of 3.

[W8nC]

O/T, but funny....

In my company's weekly email newsletter....

Acronym of the Week
SOL - In Spanish it means "sun", in our industry it means "Statue of Limitations".

haha, oooopsie.

[mia g]

Just some insight in too todays prisons, MANY MANY inmates get released, and go directly out and commit another crime, because they "NEED TO GO HOME"..their home IS the prison. BECAUSE life in prison is better for many then life in the world.

Inmates do get psych care in prison. Many of those trained to give that care are good people who want to help the inmates, I personally know several. They get religous care, in the religion of THEIR choosing. Sometimes the food in prisons suck..sometimes it is great... In realiality it is kinda like life, you roll with what it given. They get an education, they get leisure activities, they get commisary(which is much cheaper then the stuff we haev to pay for).

From my experience with women inamtes, AB will have those that taunt and bully her, BUT there will also be some around to protect and care for her(menaing the inmates) Kinda like the real world. If we did a mental hospital vs a prison, there really is not much diffrence(accept maybe a little more freedom in prison). There is reahbilitation in prison IF the inmate accepts the help.

I still believe to some degree AB was wanting to follow in mom and dads foot steps, to "connect" with them to a degree. I have to wonder HOW would we (jq public OR specialist dealing with AB) ever KNOW she is reahbilitated?? She apparently (from the sounds of the testimony in the courtroom) has already fooled other professionals! If years of counseling havent helped up to this point, how many more years of it will it take??? I do not think for one minute she has an "immature mind". She is very intelligent. Has won academic awards, taken part and done well in "mature" extra curicular activities such as equestrian and fencing. She had a mature enough mind to sneak off to concerts and spend nights in the woods. Immature people are scared of the woods, and scared to go off far from parents/guardian= protection. Even now it would seem by the pictures we get from trial and mugshot,she does not care. She is cold and indiffrent, that does not mean immature(inmho) it means cold and indiffrent..she does not care!! How do you make someone care?? All the above is only my thoughts and opinion based on the facts we know, and my experience with criminals.

It all boils down to the world NEEDS protected from the likes of AB. WE deserve that! Elizabeth deserves JUSTICE, justice is not allowing AB to walk free when she fools another round of psych professionals. I am truly srry for whatever happened to make AB what she is, but she lost all my sympathy when she lured, strangled, a cut that baby girl Elizabeth!!! Life is hard and life sucks sometimes, but we humans do not get to do whatever we want, when we want to other people.

And (again MHO) illegal drug use IS NOT a defense, one chooses to do that.

ALL is MHO!!

[~greeneyedgirl~]

Originally Posted by emeraldeyes85

We can agree to disagree my profession is rehabilitation and I have seen it work, the other side is locking people up like animals and it never works, they always come out harder and colder than when they went in.

If our prisons were places of rehabilitation that would be one thing but they are not and not even remotely so. They are barbaric based on a dark ages mentality and an embarassment to any progressive and forward thinking society, which admittedly we are neither, sadly.

I am a firm believer in counselling, rehabilitation to me is something quite different , with that being said the first
BBM should never even be an option in cases such as this and the second BBM the crimes that these people have committed to get them into prison in the first place are exactly what you have portrayed the prisons to be, anyone who can commit such a horrific violent act at any age let alone a teenager is barbaric and an embarrassment to the the human race as a whole. This of course is only my personal opinion based on personal experience. Is each and every person different, yes they are but in these types of situations rules need to be enforced and upheld to the maximum allowed by law not only punish but to hopefully deter the next one who thinks they too can commit such an act.

On a side note, in the past month since I have been following this I have heard of at least 10 separate cases involving death by a teen, why is this so common? If I have to hear one more child say that they wanted to know what it felt like, I really think I'm going to lose it. I'm sorry if that is a bit much but come on each and every one of these teens had signs in hindsight, lets stop relying so much on hindsight for answers and start looking now with questions.

I don't believe Alyssa will ever be fit for society, will counselling help her, I highly doubt it. I just can't see her as being the one due to the vast amount of counselling she has had. It obliviously didn't work, and it may have even accelerated the process in her mind. I don't know, just my thoughts because this really does just blow my mind.

sorry it is so long

[steph572]

I spent many years working in two different institutions in this area of MO. I agree with almost everything you said. The exception being:

Originally Posted by mia g

Sometimes the food in prisons suck..sometimes it is great...

In all my time there (which covered every shift), I never had a single meal that was good, let alone great.

[Prof]

It is fairly obvious to me that the field of mental health in this country does not get the attention, respect, or money necessary to be as effective as it could be. IMO neither do children's services. = I have read over and over again assertions without any evidence that AB got all of the help she needed -- my question again how can one be so certain of the help she received?

I have said this before,that I have not heard one argument for AB's release --and if I am wrong, you can go ahead and send her to my house- (sheesh to that Ad Baculum )

I repeat: Nobody wants AB released
I think there is a need to both protect the community and help her

This is what we do KNOW about previous therapy: Pathways got involved in 2007 when AB tried to commit suicide -- the JO in the case stated that she "sometimes received daily intensive treatment at home"
If you look at the Pathways (hyperlinked here) you can see that Pathways does offer these services for 4 to 6 weeks - we do not know that AB got more than that -- we really do not know how long she was in therapy and if that therapy was still underway, as some of the accounts of the Grand Jury hearing vary and none give any specific time range, so IMO it is not wise to assume that she had the "best therapy," had "therapy for a few years:, or therapy for any real length of time -- IMO all of her public cries for attention did not evidence a child in intensive therapy

"Juvenile officer David Cook testified that Bustamante has received mental health services since September 2007 after she attempted suicide. She had a ten-day stay in the Mid-Missouri Mental Health Center after the attempt, and has received mental health services from Pathways Community Behavioral Healthcare in Jefferson City since."

Let us not forget that the Judge stated his disappointment with the state of services for youths in MO: "Judge Beetem said he was "disappointed with the Division of Youth Services" because it lacks the 'adequate facilities, programs, or services that [Bustamante] needs to treat her past her 21st birthday.' (lacks adequate is pretty much failing in my language)

AND even the juvenile prosecutor in the hearing understood the need for treatment: "Green, the prosecutor, rested much of her case to try Bustamante as an adult rested on the lack of proper services in the juvenile system to treat Bustamante, which Judge Beetem upheld in his decision."

Also "Cook said Bustamante takes Prozac for depression and also received services for mood swings and self-harm. Cook said Bustamante has a history of cutting herself, but said that there were no indications she was homicidal."

KOMU article hyperlinked here

And in that same article above "Cook said her life at home was normal and structured. She did chores and earned an allowance, and had no abnormal confrontations with her siblings." Huh? It was not abnormal to encourage her 10 year old brothers to hurt themselves over and over again? Hmmn it was not abnormal to fake stab another child with a real knife and post the pic on the internet? IDK but according to experts one of the 3rd level immediate warning signs of a dangerous child is if he or she owns a weapon, or "Brought a weapon to a place or situation that is inappropriate." Hmmn what kind of supervision? What kind of therapy?

IDK