MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martin's Thread #14

[LadyRider]

Originally Posted by W8nC

All I kow about the relationship between the two families, besides the fact that their two young daughters were friends, is what ILC posted. His post, IMO, implied that there was some tension between them after Elizabeth went missing, but I don't recall anything that said there was a problem before that. However, I didn't get the impression that the families were close at all.

I do remember ILC's post, but then I dismissed it due to the happenings here and his departure. But, I know I read this, again, this past week in a newspaper. I do know it was not here, cause I don't read other forums, only here and newspaper articles.

[mia g]

Originally Posted by LadyRider

My other question is does anyone know what the issue was between the 2 families prior? I read this in a newspaper report, but don't remember which one, and honestly it could have been a comment posted in one of the latest newspaper articles.

I have wondered this myself. I also wondered if there were any connections between the criminals in both sides of the family ( AB parents and EO dad and brother)

[LadyRider]

Originally Posted by mia g

I have wondered this myself. I also wondered if there were any connections between the criminals in both sides of the family ( AB parents and EO dad and brother)

I can't help but think this could be.

[Prof]

Originally Posted by LadyRider

My other question is does anyone know what the issue was between the 2 families prior? I read this in a newspaper report, but don't remember which one, and honestly it could have been a comment posted in one of the latest newspaper articles.

I do know that ILC foisted his opinion that there were issues between the two families before Elizabeth was murdered -- and I am pretty sure a ghost of that post still exists in thread 4 or 5 of this case -- if I take another break from grading, I will find it

If you can remember any key words that might have been used in this article or comment to an article, I can find it -- but I really stopped reading comments to news articles on this case a while back

[Csquare]

The point I am trying to make is this. IT does not matter if AB has the BMW of therapists. IF she does not desire to be fixed we are wasting time and money. I agree study her and see what we can learn. As far as education goes the ones I worked with had much more than a CC degree.

[W8nC]

I respectfully disagree......

I'm aware that MO doesn't provide top-of-the-line mental healthcare for inmates, but high school guidance counselors? No offense to HSGC, but IMO that's kind of disrespectful to the mental health professionals who work in the prison system.

[Bibliophile]

Originally Posted by W8nC

I respectfully disagree......

I'm aware that MO doesn't provide top-of-the-line mental healthcare for inmates, but high school guidance counselors? No offense to HSGC, but IMO that's kind of disrespectful to the mental health professionals who work in the prison system.

I'll chime in here as well.

In general, treatment and care for the seriously mentally ill is lacking everywhere in the United States. That said ...

DOC (Dept of Corrections), like a variety of other institutions, employs both professionals and paraprofessionals. You can check at the Office of Admin website for the state of Missouri but the qualifications for DOC aren't any worse, and may in fact be better, than the qualifications for treatment workers at DYS (division of youth services).

My point is - if you are specifically discussing the quality of therapy and treatment, and comparing adult vs juvenile institutions, its going to be about the same for Alyssa no matter where she goes.

[mia g]

I have been trying to look into the diffrent places Alyssa could be sent.
Mental hospital vs prison.. Can a local please tell me where Alyssa would be housed in each scenerio..if she is sentenced to prison...or if she got sentenced to a mental hospital. (IE here in Texas we have mental hosptials that are a divisionj of the department of corrections..does Mo. ??)
What are the names of the possible units and hospitals??

[Bibliophile]

Originally Posted by mia g

I have been trying to look into the diffrent places Alyssa could be sent.
Mental hospital vs prison.. Can a local please tell me where Alyssa would be housed in each scenerio..if she is sentenced to prison...or if she got sentenced to a mental hospital. (IE here in Texas we have mental hosptials that are a divisionj of the department of corrections..does Mo. ??)
What are the names of the possible units and hospitals??

The only way she would be sent to a mental hospital would be if she is found not guilty by reason of insanity. For mental health services, Missouri is divided into districts. Because she is in Cole Co., she would go to Fulton State Hospital. It is operated jointly by the Dept of Corrections and The Dept of Mental Health.

Here is the website - http://www.dmh.missouri.gov/fulton/index.htm

[Prof]

Originally Posted by Bibliophile

The only way she would be sent to a mental hospital would be if she is found not guilty by reason of insanity. For mental health services, Missouri is divided into districts. Because she is in Cole Co., she would go to Fulton State Hospital. It is operated jointly by the Dept of Corrections and The Dept of Mental Health.

Here is the website - http://www.dmh.missouri.gov/fulton/index.htm

MO has the NGBD Not Guilty by Mental Defect or Disease, and I posted links and information on this here:

Found Deceased MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martin's Thread #13 - Page 21 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Found Deceased MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martin's Thread #13 - Page 21 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

[Prof]

I found an interesting article titled "Did You Know? MH3 and MH4 Can Help"
in the Mental Health of America Eastern Missouri periodical here: "Street Talk" by the psychologist and the Chief of Mental Health Services for the Missouri Department of Corrections. (He's held the position for about a year and a half, and interestingly enough, he used to work in Jefferson City at St Mary's Health Center Mental Health Services, and before that he focused on children with a variety of disorders -anxiety, post traumatic, adjustment)

He asserts "The Missouri Department of Corrections has approximately 300,000 mental health contacts yearly (psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, social workers, nurses, activity therapists). Within the Department of Corrections, we have specialized mental health units for offenders with developmental disabilities and chronic mental illness. "

IMO This presents at least some hope that AB will get viable mental health treatment if she is found guilty and sent to prison


I also found on the Mental Health of America Eastern Missouri site a fun (IMO as I scored high ) quiz on mental health myths here : Mental Health Myths


WB Pax, and I enjoyed your wife's posts; I hope she will continue to post

[Prof]

Official Manual, State of Missouri 2009–2010 Exec Dept of Mental Health

[Prof]

Why think there is a connection? Because they are both in prison? CB's crimes were in another county

[mia g]

Originally Posted by Prof

Why think there is a connection? Because they are both in prison? CB's crimes were in another county

I do not know if there is a conection, I have just wondered if there was one, it could be between any of the four connected. IF there was a connection it could be they met in jail/prison or even Ayssa and Dale Jr knew each other.. It was just a thought that crossed my mind early on as a possible "motive" but really does not have any importance on the whole scheme of things.

[LadyRider]

Originally Posted by Prof

Why think there is a connection? Because they are both in prison? CB's crimes were in another county

Not saying it is connected, but did cross my mind. Most people with a dark side (being nice here) do tend to run together here in Missouri. Everybody knows someone that someone knows. I ride a Harley, doesn't necessarily mean I am a Hell's Angel, but I do know someone who knows someone that is and has introduced us. We have a common interest - the Harley. I mean we know that their is criminal history with both families and thus some times and especially in small communities everyone knows everyone and there history. I am sure it is not connected, but like I said it was mentioned a couple times and places that the families did have a issue. Maybe DO senior flirted with AB's mom and it upset her. I don't know, it was just a thought of mine. Back to Lurkville.

[Prof]

As for some claims that AB had Comprehensive Treatment and Therapy, I still doubt that as they had NO idea of what her daily life was like
Here is a good link to a description of what Comprehensive Psychiatric Evaluation involves from
The American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry

More importantly, IMO, the experts who have the most authority to speak to AB's ability to be "fixed" or not, believe that there is hope for adolescents like AB who murder

In the organization's Policy on Juvenile Death Sentences it states
"The United States remains the only country in the world that has not yet ratified the UN Convention, Article 37a, which states that 'Neither capital punishment nor life imprisonment without possibility of release shall be imposed for offenses committed by persons below eighteen years of age.'"

and "In many instances, these juveniles have not received adequate diagnostic assessments or interventions."

and
"The philosophy of the juvenile court has always been rehabilitation. This goal is now made more attainable than ever by improved assessment tools, new effective community-intervention programs, and treatments for underlying psychiatric disorders. However, such efforts are often undermined by the diversion of scarce dollars into incarceration, long sentences, and the death penalty rather than into earlier intervention efforts and strengthening the juvenile justice system so that it can effectively respond to dangerous and/or repeat youth offenders to ensure public safety"

Here is the general link to the site
http://www.aacap.org/


Thanks for reading

[Bibliophile]

Originally Posted by Prof

As for some claims that AB had Comprehensive Treatment and Therapy, I still doubt that as they had NO idea of what her daily life was like

I'm curious how you could reach this conclusion given she had intensive, in-home services???

Then again if we want to split hairs - does any therapist realistically know a play-by-play of their client's life???

Here is a good link to a description of what Comprehensive Psychiatric Evaluation involves from
The American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry

I would bet that Alyssa has had this at least twice in the last two years - once at MMMH and again at Prenger.

[Prof]

Originally Posted by Bibliophile

I'm curious how you could reach this conclusion given she had intensive, in-home services???

I have posted how I come to my "guesses" along with supporting links (I have NOT made any conclusions in this case) Sorry for repeating-- I am only addressing this again because of the triple emphasis of the question

I do not know the time frame for these "in home services" -- again, I ask anyone who can find a clear report of this to please post it, so I can move on-- I would happier to change my guess, than to continue along this repetitive line (sigh) Most of my posts are in response to sweeping statements about "AB's having years of daily therapy which did not help so therefore she cannot be fixed and should be locked up in prison for life" -- I would like proof of this 2 years of daily intensive therapy

I doubt that they had much knowledge of what her daily life was like after reading some of the following published reports that I have posted in many of my previous posts:

She carried a knife
She took that knife to inappropriate places
She used that knife in an inappropriate and agressive way
She told friends that she wondered what it was like to kill someone
She told friends that she used illegal drugs
On more than one occassion she was unsupervised all night allegedly in the woods
She posted three videos publically whose main theme was getting her brothers to hurt themselves for kicks
She had multiple PUBLIC internet accounts that demonstrated a dark fantasy life and interest in violence and hating authority
She came from a tumultous and broken home
From the aunt's public diary, there was a lot of tension in the custodial home
Her family history included heavy violence multiple felony assault charges -that involved a knife
Her family history included drug arrests
There seem to be plenty of best friends who are not shy about discussing the dark and destructive side of AB -- just one example:
"We talked to one of Alyssa's best friends KS."
"K says in eighth or ninth grade, she started noticing Alyssa change, becoming more destructive. But K also says its love that Alyssa never thought she had. 'She always told me how much she wanted a mom and dad and she just felt alone.'" K tells me she thinks that this feeling of abandonment is what made Alyssa spiral out of control." KMIZ
We even heard a girl's father outside of the courtroom claim that he knew AB had said that she wanted to kill someone http://www.ksdk.com/video/default.as...01/51273517001

Then we have the reports of expert evaluations:
"Bustamante is described in the documents as a troubled, angst-ridden teen, but not extraordinarily so."
"A standardized test designed to evaluate Bustamante’s state of mind administered before Elizabeth Olten was killed determined that her risk for self-harm was “mild” and her tendency toward moodiness was “moderate.”
Columbia Tribune

Originally Posted by Bibliophile

Then again if we want to split hairs - does any therapist realistically know a play-by-play of their client's life???

Split hairs? sorry, I seriously did not know I was splitting hairs; I simply thought I had an open mind
IMO AB had many of the risk factors outlined for violence in youth
http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePreventio...vefactors.html
I thought that was the point of a CHILD's "intensive" and "in-home" therapy, so realistically I do not see any point in this alleged therapy if they do not look at the whole picture; When it comes to children, I would think that "intensive therapy" would not simply rely on what the child says or does not say

Originally Posted by Bibliophile

I would bet that Alyssa has had this at least twice in the last two years - once at MMMH and again at Prenger.

I would hope she had this after her suicide attempt at MMMH
As far as at least twice, you're right, but does the second matter in this discussion, after all it was after she murdered a child-- a bit late IMO

The only thing I KNOW -was the reported testimony of David Cook

"Usually the evaluation consists of a series of interviews, requiring several hours during one or more sessions. During these interviews, the child or adolescent, family, and clinician work together to formulate different hypotheses concerning the nature of the problem(s). They will also examine possible causes, exacerbating circumstances, and other related problems."[/SIZE] (If they examined causes, circumstances and related problems, did they identify the risk factors for violence)
http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_f...ric_evaluation

[JLMcKenna83]

Originally Posted by Prof

Then we have the reports of expert evaluations:
"Bustamante is described in the documents as a troubled, angst-ridden teen, but not extraordinarily so."
"A standardized test designed to evaluate Bustamante’s state of mind administered before Elizabeth Olten was killed determined that her risk for self-harm was “mild” and her tendency toward moodiness was “moderate.”
Columbia Tribune

Quite honestly.. as having been a 15 year old girl myself.. I find this statement to be descriptive of most 15 year old girls.. Most 15 year old girls are quite moody and tend to be a bit dramatic.. It's the hormones.. They're all wacky at this age.. but I disagree that her risk for self harm was "mild".. Look at the scars she had.. self-harm, self-mutilation, whatever you'd like to call it.. Those scars do not represent a "mild" risk IMO

(I'm not knocking you Prof.. just telling you from my personal experience...)

[Prof]

Originally Posted by JLMcKenna83

Quite honestly.. as having been a 15 year old girl myself.. I find this statement to be descriptive of most 15 year old girls.. Most 15 year old girls are quite moody and tend to be a bit dramatic.. It's the hormones.. They're all wacky at this age.. but I disagree that her risk for self harm was "mild".. Look at the scars she had.. self-harm, self-mutilation, whatever you'd like to call it.. Those scars do not represent a "mild" risk IMO

(I'm not knocking you Prof.. just telling you from my personal experience...)

Oh, I know that you are not knocking me, as I did not provide that expert testimony at the hearing to determine if this child should be tried as an adult or not IMO

and in my personal experience many 9 to 18 year olds are moody-- yes, it is the hormones together with the developmental stage of the brain IMO

My only point in posting that was to question (and I probably was not clear on that so I thank you!) how this could be a report of intensive evaluation and therapy? A standardized test and some notes from counselors? It just does not seem to evidence what I have seen defined as intensive treatment -- I am no expert, but I have read up on this as I just do not feel that I have seen much scrutiny ahead of time on the part of any adult -- IMOIMOIMO lol

[Bibliophile]

Originally Posted by Prof

Most of my posts are in response to sweeping statements about "AB's having years of daily therapy which did not help so therefore she cannot be fixed and should be locked up in prison for life" -- I would like proof of this 2 years of daily intensive therapy

I don't think she had two years of daily, intensive therapy. I think she had a high degree/amount of services.

Given my knowledge of Missouri's services and what has been reported from friends and court proceedings, I can readily deduce that she had follow up treatment after her in-patient hospitalization.
We know her hospitalization was in 2007. We don't know if that was January or December, so for the sake of discussion, let's just say it was September 2007.

Following that, local reports say she was away from school a few months, so the most likely explanation for that absence is that she was attending Pathway's Day Treatment program or in Prenger. Those are the two places she would have continued to receive therapy and not been considered truant from school. That might take us up to roughly, January 2008.

Following that she was most likely attending weekly therapy sessions, possibly group therapy sessions and med checks with an MD for several months or longer.

There may have been a lull in therapy 6 to 12 months following her hospitalization if the crisis was well past and therapists/family thought there was improvement. Then again, she could have continued weekly therapy for a year.

This could have gone on to January of this year (again just guessing to give us a theoretical timeline reference). However, at some point near the time of the murder, it is reported that she was receiving therapy nearly every day.

The only programs in the state of Missouri that allow for such intensive treatment are the ones structured through the Dept of Social Services or the Juvenile Court. That indicates there was some sort of crisis that preceded the institution of this particular therapy program. It could have been that her grandparents were having problems controlling her or that she committed other crimes. Nevertheless, the program criteria is that she was at imminent risk of removal from the home.

Of course all of this is assuming her grandparents aren't multi-millionares who can afford to bring in 30k + a month, private practitioners.

I doubt that they had much knowledge of what her daily life was like after reading some of the following published reports that I have posted in many of my previous posts:

list respectfully snipped

She no doubt carried a knife because of her issues with cutting - many do. And as someone else noted, there are many things you've listed that wouldn't necessarily be red flags in a 15 year old - they're only red flags taken all together and after a murder has been committed. Unless all of these people were attending her staffings or team meetings, the opportunity to exchange this information wouldn't have occurred.

Split hairs? sorry, I seriously did not know I was splitting hairs; I simply thought I had an open mind

Please go back and read that I wrote "we" not "you" I'm sorry if you felt I was singling you out.

I've wrote it before -- mental health services here and in other places are far from stellar, and on this discussion board we have the superhuman advantage of looking at these things in hindsight after a tragedy. I don't think its unusual at all for the therapist not to know many things about a client and particularly a teenage female who was participating reluctantly or involuntarily.

[Prof]

Originally Posted by Bibliophile

I don't think she had two years of daily, intensive therapy. I think she had a high degree/amount of services.

Given my knowledge of Missouri's services and what has been reported from friends and court proceedings, I can readily deduce that she had follow up treatment after her in-patient hospitalization.

Yes, David Cook's testimony stated "follow up" treatment --

In 2007, Cook said, [AB] attempted suicide, prompting a 10-day stay at the Mid-Missouri Mental Health Center. Follow-up treatment included a prescription for the anti-depressant Prozac and near-daily meetings with counselors. http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/...year-old-girl/

Originally Posted by Bibliophile

We know her hospitalization was in 2007. We don't know if that was January or December, so for the sake of discussion, let's just say it was September 2007.

Good guess! or memory "During the certification hearing, people testified that [AB] has a history of mental illness. She attempted suicide in September 2007." http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/ne...aspx?id=378975

Originally Posted by Bibliophile

Following that, local reports say she was away from school a few months, so the most likely explanation for that absence is that she was attending Pathway's Day Treatment program or in Prenger. Those are the two places she would have continued to receive therapy and not been considered truant from school. That might take us up to roughly, January 2008.

I did see the JM ("friend")interview:

[JM] "told Crimesider that two years ago, [AB] took 'a bunch
of Tylenol and something else, some sort of pain killer' at her
grandparent's home, where she lived.
'She passed out and her grandma found her and called an ambulance,' [JM] said. 'She had to have her stomach pumped.'
'Then she went to the hospital for a while and they sent her to a
psych ward for a while,' [JM ] said. 'I know she was away from school
for like two or three months.'"

Hmmn---
I am curious about JM or other "friends" statements not only because of their age, and admitted distance from AB as of late, but because one discusses pills and the other discusses slit wrists, and I could swear I read somewhere about a hanging attempt, oh well; Then there is the court testimony of her suicide attempt about cutting her writsts, so IDK who or what to believe
"A similar claim was echoed in the courtroom Wednesday.
A witness said when [AB] was in eighth grade, she tried to kill herself by cutting her wrists."
http://www.abc17news.com/news/story.php?id=15503

Yes, all we can do is guess -- and right now I guess I should get back to work

Thanks for all of your insight, Bibliophile

[LogicalMinds]

Well the death penalty is off the table so once again that is a moot point..it is not allowed in the us for minors and that is from the Supreme Court

so yes, we do have LWOP for minors but no death penalty

[Prof]

Originally Posted by LogicalMinds

Well the death penalty is off the table so once again that is a moot point..it is not allowed in the us for minors and that is from the Supreme Court

so yes, we do have LWOP for minors but no death penalty

I never made the DP a point -- the point is that they take a stand against LWOP too -- which HAS been a LENGTHLY topic of conversation in this forum for AB's punishment

[LadyRider]

Can AB's attorney request thru the judge/court that AB be given or taken for mental issues/evaluations at any time or should AB become agitated? And if so, does the proscutor become involved or made aware of it and have access to the recorded notes, lab, & etc?