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Caylee Anthony 2 years old Not reported missing for a month after she was last seen.


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  #51  
Old 12-22-2009, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
Texas State has a Forensic Anthropology department that focuses on decomposition. I took some terms from it, googled with them, and came up with these. If nothing else, we can pick up some search terms to use for more research papers on the net.

Taphonomy of Child-sized Remains in Shallow Grave and Surface Deposit Scenarios

http://ecommons.txstate.edu/cgi/view...ext=anthroptad


An Analysis of Decomposition Rates on Outdoor Surface Variations in Central Texas

http://ecommons.txstate.edu/cgi/view...ext=anthroptad


A STUDY ON THE RATE OF DECOMPOSITION OF CARRION IN CLOSED CONTAINERS PLACED IN A SHADE AREA OUTDOORS IN CENTRAL TEXAS

http://ecommons.txstate.edu/cgi/view...ad&unstamped=1


And just for some extra fun:

Vegetation Colonization of Experimental Grave Sites in Central Texas

http://ecommons.txstate.edu/cgi/view...ext=anthroptad


The Body Farm website:

http://web.utk.edu/~fac/facilities.shtml


Texas State Forensic Anthopology website:

http://www.txstate.edu/anthropology/facts/
Still reading and I suggest you guys read BeanE's link.
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Tulessa View Post
Still reading and I suggest you guys read BeanE's link.
Shouldn't we be wrapping presents or baking gingerbread cookies or something? God. I'm sitting here with all these sweet, wonderful Christmas songs playing and reading this stuff.
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  #53  
Old 12-22-2009, 06:14 PM
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Shouldn't we be wrapping presents or baking gingerbread cookies or something? God. I'm sitting here with all these sweet, wonderful Christmas songs playing and reading this stuff.
I have to work around the clock until Sunday. I am cramming all the information my lil ole brain can handle!
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:21 PM
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Shouldn't we be wrapping presents or baking gingerbread cookies or something? God. I'm sitting here with all these sweet, wonderful Christmas songs playing and reading this stuff.
I'm doing both! Making a rum cake as I write...
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
Shouldn't we be wrapping presents or baking gingerbread cookies or something? God. I'm sitting here with all these sweet, wonderful Christmas songs playing and reading this stuff.
BeanE
Maybe it is because we have such good and fun things to do to get ready for the holidays that we are able to deal with this fascinating yet horrible subject. It might act as a shield to soften the harsh realities of Caylee's death.
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:56 PM
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So sorry if someone already wrote this (didn't see it when I skimmed), but could adipocere like the one in the picture here be the reason that RK said he saw somthing white sticking up in the woods, back in 08/2008?
There was a discussion on the RK thread about how he could possibly have seen anything white, if the skull was inside or underneath the trash bags, but maybe her body was swollen and adipocere was covering it, before decomposition caused the body to skeletonize and the skull/bones to sink down onto the ground below.
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
Shouldn't we be wrapping presents or baking gingerbread cookies or something? God. I'm sitting here with all these sweet, wonderful Christmas songs playing and reading this stuff.
Unfortunately murder doesn't celebrate the holidays. Just ask any homicide detective who missed his kids wake up to Santa's presents, because they've been called out on a homicide three hours earlier.
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Old 12-22-2009, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Just Jayla View Post
So sorry if someone already wrote this (didn't see it when I skimmed), but could adipocere like the one in the picture here be the reason that RK said he saw somthing white sticking up in the woods, back in 08/2008?
There was a discussion on the RK thread about how he could possibly have seen anything white, if the skull was inside or underneath the trash bags, but maybe her body was swollen and adipocere was covering it, before decomposition caused the body to skeletonize and the skull/bones to sink down onto the ground below.
BBM. I really don't know. It well could be, or could be part of why he perceived white. Months ago I searched for pictures of children's and babies skulls as they were found outside in various places around the world. I wanted to see exactly what they looked like so I could understand better why Caylee's skull was so hard to see.

When I envisioned those skulls (which were anything but bright white, more mottled beige) in among the dense vegetation and mud, as well the black trash bags, pull up, laundry bag, trash, and a log, I could certainly understand why searchers didn't see it. I also could see how the contrast of so many dark colors in a gloomy place as a backdrop for something mottled beige would make you think 'white' as what you were seeing.

I don't think Caylee's skull was inside the bag. I think it was partially covered with the twisted remnants of the black bags.

MOO
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  #59  
Old 12-22-2009, 10:56 PM
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I heard this a while back and didn't see a thread where it should go in.

I have heard that if you want to find out what a dead decomposing body smells like, to clip a fingernail and burn it. It allegedly doesn't smell exactly like a decomposing body, but is supposed to be close. And the smell is pervasive. And yes, I tried it.
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ZsaZsa View Post
I'm doing both! Making a rum cake as I write...
I'm reading and drinking the rum. LOL
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:29 PM
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I've got to stop eating dinner in front of the computer, lmao.
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  #62  
Old 12-23-2009, 12:01 AM
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sorry ....so sorry to ask this....but should we list days of decomp and then try and link a pic and info to it?

day one june 16
day two
day three

one of the above days kc barrows the shovel

day 2.6 or close to it....caylee in the trunk...from the body farm for how long the body was in the trunk
(this could be the last image, KC had of caylee, baged the body, or re-bag the body because of fluid spill) or moved the body

day 12 june 27......car left at amscot

day 31 ....when CA reported caylee missing

and then dec 11 when caylee was found?


Last edited by TakeNote; 12-23-2009 at 12:06 AM.
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  #63  
Old 12-23-2009, 12:48 AM
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Warning - Graphic pics @ link!

It appears day 31 would look like this.


http://www.deathonline.net/decomposi.../grave_wax.htm

"Adipocere is resistant to bacteria and can protect a corpse, slowing further decomposition. Adipocere starts to form within a month after death and has been recorded on bodies that have been exhumed after 100 years. If a body is readily accessible to insects, adipocere is unlikely to form".
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  #64  
Old 12-23-2009, 02:48 AM
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Even though this subject and the pictures are gruesome, I do want to know what stage Caylee's body was in say one day after her death, and then 3 days, 7 days, etc. I want to know how KC last saw her child. moo
----------------------------------
Hi doogiesgirl, the best site is the BodyFarm. They have pictures in all stages.
I doubt very much that kc knew what she was about to see when she opened her trunk after placing her body in there! It had to be very upsetting.
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Old 12-23-2009, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by MADJGNLAW View Post
I have been looking for the forensics that were released and I can't seem to find the one that they talk about Adipocere, I am so sure I read it in one of the doc's. Now, maybe this is found on all decomposing bodies? Anyone else recall reading about it? If so could you please share the link...Thank You so much!


I found another article that explains the Stages of Adipocere.

A Preliminary Investigation of the Stages of Adipocere Formation
"Snip" http://www.astm.org/JOURNALS/FORENSI...JFS2002230.htm
Abstract
Adipocere is a postmortem decomposition product which forms from a body's adipose tissue. This study aimed to chemically demonstrate the process of conversion from adipose tissue to adipocere.
Samples of adipocere were collected from pig cadavers that were allowed to decompose for varying intervals.
Samples of soil were collected from beneath the cadavers and analyzed to determine the leaching effect of adipocere. Gas chromatography/mass spectrometry (GC/MS) was used to quantify the fatty acid composition of pig adipocere.
Fourier transform infrared spectroscopy (FTIR) was used as a confirmatory test and to identify other components such as triglycerides and calcium salts of fatty acids. The study demonstrates the process of adipocere formation and the stages of formation through which the process passes using chemical techniques
-------------
I read about a bit of adipocere in the medical examiners report.It was found on one of the leg bones I believe.I dont know how to post a link but I know I read it there.Dr G.
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Old 12-23-2009, 03:47 AM
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warning: graphic

really interesting video of Bill Bass giving a quick tour of the body farm. shows skin slippage, hair mat, etc.

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Old 12-23-2009, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
Shouldn't we be wrapping presents or baking gingerbread cookies or something? God. I'm sitting here with all these sweet, wonderful Christmas songs playing and reading this stuff.


Nah, I'm finished anyway, until Thursday. I can sing Christmas songs and learn about decomposition simultaneously. (Isn't education more important than gingerbread cookies? That's how I would feel if I had the rum someone mentioned, lol.)

All of you have found some very interesting websites. I don't know how you did it, I came up with a few basic and boring sites, but thank you!
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Old 12-23-2009, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Tulessa View Post
Warning, Pictures included! Not for the faint of heart!

I wanted to start this thread because several people had asked me about it. My power has been off for 4 days, just got a generator, so if this needs to be moved? Mods feel free to do so. We can use this as a reference thread when discussing the case.

Dead Folks and Decay



Bodies do not always decompose uniformly or in the same way. A corpse might be partially skeletonized, partially mummified, and partially converted to adipocere. Adipocere looks like this:

This photo is of two child victims in the famous Hoptoun Quarry Murders Case investigated by Sir Sydney Alfred Smith. Read the full story HERE.



http://writersforensicsblog.wordpres...y/#comment-534
This link may be helpful in explaining bugs. This has some graphic pics. (I work in pathology and I still can't get used to the pictures...so sad). This opens as a word document. Anyway, hope it helps. Again it's heartbreaking.

http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/barfield/b...Entomology.doc
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Old 12-23-2009, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by wenwe4 View Post
Warning - Graphic pics @ link!

It appears day 31 would look like this.


http://www.deathonline.net/decomposi.../grave_wax.htm

"Adipocere is resistant to bacteria and can protect a corpse, slowing further decomposition. Adipocere starts to form within a month after death and has been recorded on bodies that have been exhumed after 100 years. If a body is readily accessible to insects, adipocere is unlikely to form".
ok....i have a question.....may be a dumb one...ive been up all night...but here it goes....

why was there adipocere found in the trunk/papper towels/trash bag.....if the trunk showed 2.6 days of decomp?....above suggest that adipocere starts in about a month of decomp.....

can adipocere form with only body fluids? and not the rest of the body?

and adipocere is grave wax right?....because i could be getting these mixed up....

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Old 12-23-2009, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by TakeNote View Post
ok....i have a question.....may be a dumb one...ive been up all night...but here it goes....

why was there adipocere found in the trunk/papper towels/trash bag.....if the trunk showed 2.6 days of decomp?....above suggest that adipocere starts in about a month of decomp.....

can adipocere form with only body fluids? and not the rest of the body?

and adipocere is grave wax right?....because i could be getting these mixed up....

You are correct, adipocere is grave wax. Adipocere is formed from body fat. That is why it is most commonly found in fatty areas of the body like the cheeks, buttock, etc.

The medical term for fat is adipo-

Also, there seems to be a huge range time-wise for the formation to occur depending on conditions. 2.6 days sounds rather quick to me though.
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Old 12-23-2009, 08:56 AM
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Thank LambChop.
And thank you, Tulessa, you did all the work. You can't argue with facts!!!
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Old 12-23-2009, 09:06 AM
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I have to leave for work, won't be back until Sunday night. Please keep this thread going as I have yet to be able to read all the links and thank you all for loving this tiny Angel.
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Old 12-23-2009, 10:37 AM
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And thank you, Tulessa, you did all the work. You can't argue with facts!!!
Well done Tulessa - excellent work!
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Old 12-23-2009, 10:38 AM
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!!!


D.P. Lyle, MD said, on November 12, 2009 at 3:47 pm
This scenario sounds as if it is a real life case and if so for Medico-Legal reasons I do not answer such questions. If it is for a work of fiction then you can submit your question and I’ll answer it. But I require certain information before answering questions. These requirements can be found on my website under the Forensic Community tab. Supply all info and send your question directly to me and I’ll get back to you as soon as possible. Go to: http://www.dplylemd.com



Wanted to ask him about the effects of freezing then thawing a body (because of the timeline, and popsicle questions by SA), but I wouldn't want to cause any problems for this forum. So do you think maybe it wouldn't matter if I'm vague enough? Or maybe someone here would know?



Just a theory that I've been playing with, that KC stored Caylee's body in the freezer for some time before transferring it to the trunk. Would explain the text to AH about getting rid of the source of the smell so much later than the 16th (24th? 26th?), the superficially irrelevant popsicle questions, and possibly any chemical inconsistencies like the accelerated formation of adipocere. If in fact there are inconsistancies- my knowledge of chemistry is almost nil.
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Last edited by Linz; 12-23-2009 at 11:17 AM. Reason: ocd & not enough caffeine yet
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Old 12-23-2009, 10:59 AM
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Good morning, friends. One of the most important things I'm learning is that there is a vast number of factors that determine what happens and when to a body after death. Far many more factors than I'd ever been aware of before. It seems the correct answer to just about anything would be "It depends...". This is some heavy duty learning for my old brain.

(Bless this sweet, beautiful, precious little baby. Guide us to the answers of what happened to her. We love you, Caylee.)
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