CA CA - Angeles Forest - 2 Skulls - Wht/HispFem & AsianMale (UP 7571 & 7573), Dec'09

[CarlK90245]

http://www.dailybreeze.com/news/ci_14072006

Skull is found in wildfire burn area
From wire reports
Posted: 12/25/2009 09:54:22 PM PST

A human skull was found on a hillside in the Angeles National Forest and authorities plan to return to search for more remains, a homicide detective said early Friday.

"Investigators were out there about eight hours," Detective Peter Hecht of the sheriff's Homicide Bureau said. "But they can't dig at night. They need forensic archaeologists and doctors."

The discovery of human remains was made around 5:35 p.m. Thursday on the Angeles Forest Highway near mile marker 19.36, said Deputy Rick Pedroza of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.

Mile marker 20 is near Lucas Creek, a steep drainage that feeds Big Tujunga Canyon above the Big Tujunga Dam, according to a duty officer at the Crescenta Valley sheriff's station.

"It was a skull, found by a hiker," said Los Angeles County Coroner's Investigator Jerry McKibben. "They're going to go back up there (today) to search."

The hillside where the skull was found is in or near a recently burned part of the forest, McKibben said. The Angeles Forest Highway winds its way through mountain watersheds that sustained severe damage during the Station Fire in August and September.

"Apparently it's part of the burn area, but it sounds like the bones are pre-fire," McKibben said. "Just from the condition of the skull, it sounds like it was skeletonized before the fire. It's definitely a skull, not attached to the body."

[Pandora]

Second skull found--also shows trauma.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...est=latestnews

[dreamweaver]

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/ci_1...rce=rss_viewed





ANGELES NATIONAL FOREST - The investigation into a human skull found with an apparent bullet hole in it in the Angeles National Forest on Thursday led to the discovery of a second human skull in the same area Saturday.
The second set of human remains were discovered about 10:30 a.m. near Angeles Forest Highway mile marker 17, about 2 miles south of where hikers discovered another skull Thursday afternoon, Los Angeles County sheriff's officials said.
The remains appeared to have been in the forest prior to the massive Station Fire that burned large portions of the forest - including the area where the remains were found - after it erupted in August, officials said. "From what I understand, they'd been there quite a while," Los Angeles County sheriff's Sgt. Jeff Hardt said. Officials declined to estimate how long the bones may have been there.

..more at link..

[not_my_kids]

Are they thinking it's a dumping ground for someone?
Or just coincidence?

[CarlK90245]

Originally Posted by not_my_kids

Are they thinking it's a dumping ground for someone?
Or just coincidence?

Angeles Crest Hwy and Angeles Forest Hwy are well-known dumping grounds for bodies. They are desolate mountain highways that are an easy drive from the Los Angeles basin and San Fernando Valley. But I would think that the close proximity of the skulls to each other would suggest that they were dumped by the same person(s). Either a double-homicide or a serial killer.

[future criminologist]

I was just going to post this after seeing an article in the LA Times about it today and you all beat me to it!

additional info/sources here:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...al-forest.html\

just thinking out loud - any way these skulls could go as far back as the Manson family?

also - anyone who lives out there - where exactly in Los Angeles is this forest?

[CarlK90245]

Originally Posted by future criminologist

just thinking out loud - any way these skulls could go as far back as the Manson family?

I suppose the timeframe could go that far back, although I doubt it because the numerous fires that have swept through there since 1969, and the subsequent mudslides and flash floods since 1969 would have either destroyed the bones or swept them into the reservoir below where they were found.

And aside from the timeframe, I doubt that these were Manson victims. For one, the Manson family did not bother to dispose of their victims. They left them right in place where they murdered them, and enjoyed the spectacle that they left behind.

Secondly, they used knives, not guns.

Originally Posted by future criminologist

anyone who lives out there - where exactly in Los Angeles is this forest?

The Angeles National Forest is a vast, largely unpopulated mountainous area in the northeast end of Los Angeles County that separates the L.A. Basin and San Fernando Valley (i.e., the two primary population centers) from the Mojave desert communities of Palmdale and Lancaster. Angeles Crest highway is a 70-mile mountain road that snakes through these mountains (See Map).

Angeles Forest.JPG

[CarlK90245]

After a little thought, I am starting to think that these murders may be unrelated.

The fact that one skull had a bullet hole, and the other skull showed some other form of trauma (presumably other than a bullet hole) would suggest that they were not killed in the same act.

Also, the articles indicate that they were found two miles apart in a creek bed. Just this year, we had a large forest fire in the area followed by heavy rains (by Los Angeles standards) a couple of weeks ago. If the bodies were left in the vegetation in different locations prior to the fire, the fire would eliminate the vegetation that was holding the bodies in place, and the water from the rainstorms would wash the skulls into the creek bed.

As I wrote earlier, that area is a good place to dump a body because there are few other places in Los Angeles with so few people around to see what you are doing. I would think that there are probably many more bones in the same area.

[future criminologist]

Originally Posted by CarlK90245

As I wrote earlier, that area is a good place to dump a body because there are few other places in Los Angeles with so few people around to see what you are doing. I would think that there are probably many more bones in the same area.

ugh, creepy. This just makes me want to have the whole area excavated! Think of how many cases you could possibly solve. But then again, I don't think the state of California has the budget for that kind of undertaking right now :-(.

[future criminologist]

side note - this is exactly why I am not a woodsy person. When I see woods and large rural areas now, I don't think about the beauty as much as how many remains are possibly buried there.

[CarlK90245]

I think of the same thing when I see the Florida Everglades.

How many of our Florida MP's were thrown in the Everglades and eaten by alligators?

And these MP cases will remain just that forever.

[dsntslp]

Future,
It's funny you say that. When hubby is driving I now see every piece of land we drive by as a prospective search area, lol.

[CarlK90245]

The two skulls found in Angeles National Forest are of a man and a woman. Their ages and identities are still unknown.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...and-woman.html
http://laist.com/2010/01/09/coroner_...om_angeles.php

[Billylee]

Originally Posted by future criminologist

side note - this is exactly why I am not a woodsy person. When I see woods and large rural areas now, I don't think about the beauty as much as how many remains are possibly buried there.

OMG! Don't ever come to OR you'll never sleep! lol I dunno, but I see dumpsters in NYC just as scary a dumping ground!

[CarlK90245]

Originally Posted by Billylee

OMG! Don't ever come to OR you'll never sleep! lol

My sister lives in Redmond Oregon. There are underground caverns that run all through that area. They were formed in ancient times when lava flowed over the landscape and formed into large tubes. She took me into one near the Redmond Airport that from the outside looked like just a hole in the ground but turned out to be a cavern a mile long.

In fact, as I recall, it was known as skeleton cave, so fortunately the dumped bodies in that particular cave had already been found before I got there .

[carbuff]

Originally Posted by CarlK90245

My sister lives in Redmond Oregon. There are underground caverns that run all through that area. They were formed in ancient times when lava flowed over the glacial ice flows. She took me into one near the Redmond Airport that from the outside looked like just a hole in the ground but turned out to be a cavern a mile long.

In fact, as I recall, it was known as skeleton cave, so fortunately the dumped bodies in that particular cave had already been found before I got there .

Wow. That's creepy.

I googled and it appears that Skeleton Cave has been gated off, partly from vandalism and partly to help restore bat populations. Wonder if that's enough to keep the bodies out.

And back on topic, I guess until they get some more information about those skulls, there's no use even speculating about ID. Could be thousands of possibilities.

[tehcloser]

Jewelry found near skulls in Los Angeles forest





LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Los Angeles County sheriff's detectives hope jewelry found near two skulls in the Angeles National Forest may help identify the deceased and reveal more information about how they died.

Three jewel-encrusted rings and a gold necklace were found near the skulls of a man and woman in an area of the forest that was ravaged by flames in the massive Station Fire in August.

The skulls were found in the burned-out area Dec. 24 and 26.

Detective John Duncan says it appears there was some trauma to at least one of the skulls. He says there may have been a bullet hole in the male skull.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...TAM&SECTION=US

[carbuff]

This article includes a picture of the rings, which look like women's rings to me:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,5043903.story

And this one has the necklace:

http://www.insidesocal.com/sgvcrime/...tos-of-je.html

Obviously robbery was not the motive.

[CarlK90245]

This is the case that comes to mind when we were discussing the area on this thread.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/..._michalle.html

Michelle's narrative mentions the city of Acton. This is where Angeles Forest Highway (as oppoded to Angeles Crest) begins from the 14 freeway, so Michelle's body was probably dumped pretty close to where these skulls were found.

The narrative also goes on to mention the cases of Peter Davis and his wife Joan.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/davis_peter.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/davis_joan.html

There is not enough info on the bodies to even think of them in terms of possibles. I am sure there are hundreds more.

By the way, carbuff's article mentioned several famous murder victims dumped on Angeles Crest and Angeles Forest Hwy. Another one that comes to mind was the 1995 case of Linda Sobek, the Raiders cheerleader who was raped and murdered by a photographer while they were out on a presumed photo shoot. Her body was dumped in the same area.

[Cymro]

Could this be a murder suicide? The man beats the woman to death, goes to dispose of the body, shoots himself, bones dissipate over time until being found?

Otherwise we're left with two bodies, killed by different methods:

If a double homicide, why kill two different ways? A killer would probably choose the easiest method to enable him to control the situation with what he had at hand.

If a serial killer, it's one who changes the gender of his victims and his method of killing, but disposes of bodies together... seems odd.

Or they could be totally unrelated... which implies that the only person ever to discover the first dump site was going to dispose of his own victim... unless of course the two were quite widely separated.

[CarlK90245]

If it was a murder suicide, the weapon would still be there.

[JLMcKenna83]

I have the exact same ring as the sapphire one.. they are commonly birthstone rings, I gave two of them (one emerald and one sapphire) to my sister when her children were born. The necklace looks like a man's necklace..

[CarlK90245]

Originally Posted by Cymro

... Or they could be totally unrelated... which implies that the only person ever to discover the first dump site was going to dispose of his own victim... unless of course the two were quite widely separated.

I tend to believe that option. The highway is long, but there are only so many turn-outs or service roads where one can park a car unnoticed. With a limited number of inconspicuous stopping points, it may just be just coincidence that two unrelated killers saw the same convenient parking spot next to the same easily accessible hillside.

The reports say that the bones were found above the Big Tujunga Reservior near mile marker 19.36. This would place it in the vicinity of the spot shown in this Google Earth view which I found by looking at the roadside mile markers in Google Earth's street view.

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=3...05466&t=h&z=18

(Note to anyone who read my earlier comments: after looking at the Google Earth street view, I completely revised my comments and map link after realizing that my earlier comments were way off.)

[PMLsmom]

Here is a couple who disappeared from NV...Can't seem to post link, here is case number from Doe:

The Doe Network:
Case File 540DFNV - Wife

The Doe Network:
Case File 294DMNV - Husband

[Mensch]

Originally Posted by carbuff

This article includes a picture of the rings, which look like women's rings to me:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,5043903.story

And this one has the necklace:

http://www.insidesocal.com/sgvcrime/...tos-of-je.html

Obviously robbery was not the motive.

Thanks for posting the photos carbuff. The three rings do go together. The ruby-emerald-saphire threesome set came in many designs and became very popular in the early 80's - could be late 70's. the link chain is very unusual. The first one I saw like that was a bracelet in the 70's. I will try to pinpint the time. The style is "Mariner" link
Edited to say: Maybe someone wants to check the author of the article. The stones are listed there as "black" but I bet the farm they are dark blue saphires. That was the trend in the three in set.