UT -Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City, 6 Dec 2009 - #6

[kiki the parrot]

Originally Posted by OK5

I am told that Josh made his own lease because it is not a normal lease. They have certain provisions in it such as, if Susan comes back, they have to move out, etc.

(IMO, he is just including that in the lease so he doesn't look guilty and is actually expecting her to come back alive and well)

(bbm) I think that's what's known as the Snowball's Chance in Haedes Clause.

[PercyVeer]

Congratulations Kiki!
Welcome to the garden of life Lily !
:birthday_party:

[PercyVeer]

Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel

I think it was him too. Does anyone know if anyone else in Utah had admin status on the FB page?

Got to admit ITA, and your question is important!
I wonder if there are more friends who are
aggressively disrespectful like moonbeam?

[Bartleby]

Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel

Strange they would have the Van locked up and alarm set parked in the garage in the nice neighborhood they lived in.

Could Susan have ran to the Van to get out knowing the keys were usually left in it since it was in the garage and Josh had gotten the keys earlier and locked the van and set the alarm?

I see nothing strange in locking your vehicle when you are not in it, no matter where it is parked, but I lived most of my life in London where car theft is rife.

Our car automatically locks all the doors except the driver's door when you exit the vehicle, which i personally find very annoying as I often leave things on the back seat and want to get them out, but my wife likes for the extra security.

Does anybody know if there was just one set of keys to the van, and if Josh kept them? His history of controlling behaviour would suggest he kept the keys, but it's also possible there were several sets.

Two minutes seems a long time for an alarm to go off when the owners are clearly within hearing range, but I couldn't count the number of times I've been woken in the small hours by car alarms going off, and the owner is far slower to shut it off than I would be.

It ought to be common practise for neighbours to investigate car alarms, but you never know if you'll get involved in a situation yourself. In a country where almost anybody can own a gun and you might not know about it, I can understand the reluctance to get involved.

The 2-minute alarm (continuous, not interrupted?) does suggest a possible scenario to me. Susan goes for the van saying she is leaving Josh, Josh tries to stop her, fight ensues and alarm is set off, Josh wounds her mortally and tries to drag her back into the house (possibly with the idea of calling for help) but she dies, and he leaves her lying on the living room carpet where she bleeds out. He panics for a while, then decides on trying to clean up and dumping the body because he can't face the music.

Whether Josh killed Susan in the living room, in the garage or elsewhere, I'm still of the opinion that it wasn't premeditated because even he would have a better alibi. He must know that his ludicrous self-contradicting story is focussing suspicion on him, cand he can't talk to anyone about Susan without admitting the story is utter bollox.

He's got himself into a situation and now he's desperately hoping his crime is not discovered, because he can't face the consequences. LE are gathering the evidence, and he's *****ting bricks.

[passionflower]

Josh is suppose to be a computer expert, programmer, designer? well...............ODD

who else but Josh would want to hack info on SUSAN? ODD

and yes I find it extremely ODD to lock a van in a locked garage attached to the house
where they live in UTah..............but then this is a very ODD case.........

[Bartleby]

Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel

He had the nerve to kill his wife and hide her body.

Well, most of us are convinced he killed her, but it may have been unintentional and taken no nerve at all.

Once you've got a dead body on your hands, I'd argue it takes greater strength of character to own up than to try to hide your mistake.

Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel

There is hope.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1...081018,00.html


The two homicide convictions in recent Utah history where no body was found include:

# Douglas A. Lovell, who now is on death row and going through a series of appeals. He pleaded guilty in 1993 to aggravated murder of Joyce Yost. Prosecutors believe Lovell killed Yost in 1985 to stop her from testifying against him for previous crimes of aggravated kidnapping, aggravated sexual assault and forcible sodomy.

# Rudy Matthew Rebeterano, who was found guilty of second-degree felony homicide in connection with what prosecutors believe was the 1981 death of Michael Guy Johnston. An eyewitness saw an altercation between the two men, later saw Rebeterano carrying some kind of large bundle to his car, and there was substantial blood in Rebeterano's car trunk and in an apartment. He has since been released from prison and is no longer on parole.

A confession, and an eyewitness. If I were Josh right now, that'd convince me to carry on the pretense and hope Susan's body is never found. He knows there were no eyewitnesses, so as long as he doesn't confess and the body isn't found he's home and dry.

[grayjay]

There is something premeditated about slipping someone a sleeping pill in their brunch.

My experience with sleeping pills would be that it's very hard to stay awake and the world doesn't come back until about eight hours later. At that point, I'm not likely to rise and shine a lot, in fact. If at that point it dawned on me that I'd been drugged, I'd know not to say something.

If Josh tried to carry her, he might need a rest by the time he reached the living room. I think she might have been fading in and out of awareness, and might have peed on the carpet. They'd have to take a very large sample in that case, because they'd be looking for traces of drugs at the very edges of the stain.

[Bartleby]

Originally Posted by grayjay

There is something premeditated about slipping someone a sleeping pill in their brunch.

My experience with sleeping pills would be that it's very hard to stay awake and the world doesn't come back until about eight hours later. At that point, I'm not likely to rise and shine a lot, in fact. If at that point it dawned on me that I'd been drugged, I'd know not to say something.

If Josh tried to carry her, he might need a rest by the time he reached the living room. I think she might have been fading in and out of awareness, and might have peed on the carpet. They'd have to take a very large sample in that case, because they'd be looking for traces of drugs at the very edges of the stain.

But we don't know that he did slip her a sleeping pill, that is just speculation. It is possible to feel tired without having been given a sleeping pill first. Susan saying she was tired may have been a little white lie to get rid of JoVonna...

If he did slip her a pill, then of course that's premeditation, and if they find traces of some drug in her body then it'll be the worse for Josh. A big reason for my not thinking it was pre-meditated is his ludicrous camping story. Surely even Josh could come up with something more believeable if he planned all this in advance?

I don't know Josh, but I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt for now. His actions and behavior say guilty to me, but I'd prefer to think he's guilty of a rash act of violence which resulted in Susan unintended death, not a pre-meditated murder.

I agree that the stain on the carpet, be it blood, vomit or urine, or something else we haven't though of , has got to be significant.

[kiki the parrot]

I think it goes w/out saying that there's a huge difference between a courage and strength of character--and the brazen, shameless nerve of somebody who feels they have the right to take another person's life. The former is the result of moral fiber and fortitude; the latter of depravity of empathy, and sheer remorselessness.

It seems evident the brand of 'nerve' required for killing your children's mother in their home, then endeavoring to get away w it is the latter. That has nothing to do w courage but is a weakness (or absence) of conscience, poverty of morality and a defect of heart.

Most bullies are cowards--and JP is no exception.

[grayjay]

Originally Posted by Bartleby

But we don't know that he did slip her a sleeping pill, that is just speculation. It is possible to feel tired without having been given a sleeping pill first. Susan saying she was tired may have been a little white lie to get rid of JoVonna...

If he did slip her a pill, then of course that's premeditation, and if they find traces of some drug in her body then it'll be the worse for Josh. A big reason for my not thinking it was pre-meditated is his ludicrous camping story. Surely even Josh could come up with something more believeable if he planned all this in advance?

I don't know Josh, but I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt for now. His actions and behavior say guilty to me, but I'd prefer to think he's guilty of a rash act of violence which resulted in Susan unintended death, not a pre-meditated murder.

I agree that the stain on the carpet, be it blood, vomit or urine, or something else we haven't though of , has got to be significant.

You're right. He does seem more of a person who just makes a lot of mistakes and does his best to clean things up. But he's hoping we think this, too.

[sogren]

Originally Posted by Bartleby

But we don't know that he did slip her a sleeping pill, that is just speculation. It is possible to feel tired without having been given a sleeping pill first. Susan saying she was tired may have been a little white lie to get rid of JoVonna....

I actually thought this too! That Susan said she was tired so her friend would leave. Sorry if you're reading this JoVonna ...

[Dr.Fessel]

"Unfortunately, Josh didn't let anybody know what was on the warrant," Graves said. "I'm assuming it was to look for something specific."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...cond-time.html

[RayO]

Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel

"Unfortunately, Josh didn't let anybody know what was on the warrant," Graves said. "I'm assuming it was to look for something specific."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...cond-time.html

I thought I saw something elsewhere that said they used the same search warrant that they served last time. Aren't search warrants public documents? Have the SLC papers been filing freedom-of-information requests for the warrants?

[diphi]

Originally Posted by RayO

I thought I saw something elsewhere that said they used the same search warrant that they served last time. Aren't search warrants public documents? Have the SLC papers been filing freedom-of-information requests for the warrants?

IIRC, the warrants have been sealed by the court. I think the newspaper has filed a suit to get them unsealed.

[OK5]

Okay, with the help of Kiirsi...we have finally gotten a floor plan of the Powell home drawn out for you all to sleuth over as much as you want. Hope it helps!



ETA: Had to amend the first one because there is no wall between the front door entryway area and the front/living room. You just walk in and the living room is right there.

[Bartleby]

Thanks for the map OK5, do you know the position of the wet spot where the fans were blowing?

This floorplan agrees with what my wife remembers from her occasional visits, but she only ever went in the main living room/kitchen area, so didn't know the layout of the other rooms.

Seems like a very nice house considering Josh filed for bankruptcy in 2007. Plenty of people round here are living in trailers.

[grayjay]

Wow! This floor plan brings all of the family dynamics into sharper focus. Thank you for sharing this.

[OK5]

Originally Posted by Bartleby

Thanks for the map OK5, do you know the position of the wet spot where the fans were blowing?

This floorplan agrees with what my wife remembers from her occasional visits, but she only ever went in the main living room/kitchen area, so didn't know the layout of the other rooms.

Seems like a very nice house considering Josh filed for bankruptcy in 2007. Plenty of people round here are living in trailers.

I do not know where the exact wet spot was or where the fans were placed as I never saw them, but I can tell you the part of the room where the carpet was removed. The carpet was removed from the front half of the room closest to the front door and window there, about halfway back toward the dining area/kitchen area. Then the carpet starts back up again. So the wall between the living room and garage to the front door area as far as side to side, and then going from the front wall/window next to the front door to halfway back toward the kitchen as far as front to back goes. I hope that makes sense.

[SuziQ]

OK5, Thank you so much for the house plans!

[Bartleby]

Originally Posted by OK5

I do not know where the exact wet spot was or where the fans were placed as I never saw them, but I can tell you the part of the room where the carpet was removed. The carpet was removed from the front half of the room closest to the front door and window there, about halfway back toward the dining area/kitchen area. Then the carpet starts back up again. So the wall between the living room and garage to the front door area as far as side to side, and then going from the front wall/window next to the front door to halfway back toward the kitchen as far as front to back goes. I hope that makes sense.

Thanks! So the wet patch was presumably in this area, and not near the garage wall or the bedroom, or the "corridor" area between bedroom and garage.

[OK5]

Originally Posted by Bartleby

Thanks! So the wet patch was presumably in this area, and not near the garage wall or the bedroom, or the "corridor" area between bedroom and garage.

Yes, that is what I am thinking based on the carpet removal right there. The wet spot had to be on the front part of the living room closest to the front wall of the house.

[grayjay]

I keep trying to reconcile the fact that it relieved family members at first, thinking it meant they were at the hospital with the nature of the stain. Josh might have intended to come back and work on it some more, and/or it was obvious what it was?

[RayO]

Originally Posted by grayjay

I keep trying to reconcile the fact that it relieved family members at first, thinking it meant they were at the hospital with the nature of the stain. Josh might have intended to come back and work on it some more, and/or it was obvious what it was?

I don't think anyone has said what the stain was. It was just described as "wet". Not sure why someone would clean up a stain before they went to the hospital if there had been some sort of accident. I figure Josh thought he could complete the clean-up after he got back. For what its worth, I'm thinking Josh didn't expect to be out all night and most of the next day on his "camping trip", nor did he expect family and authorities to break in to check on their welfare.

[nomad]

Wow OK5! Thanks
I wonder if the wet spot is really a mystery, or if it's origin is pretty clear, to anyone actually looking at it. Minus LE confirmation

[diphi]

Did LE do any luminol testing?