The Smiths

[YellowSubmarine]

Just wanted to post this as it has a lot of good info on TS & JS. It is all pretty much stuff we already knew -- just wanted this all in one place.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...g3.html?cat=41

There is this, tho, in regards to the supposed friend of theirs in SA:

Update 1/26: Jack and Tammi Smith have a friend who lives in San Antonio. Police investigating baby Gabriel's disappearance have questioned this man but have not disclosed details of the interview.

Anyone know if we've ever heard either of them deny knowing anyone in SA?

[OneLove]

Originally Posted by SuziQ

Doesn't Jack know that LE can retrieve those text messages? People think that deleting them from the phone gets rid of them. Not true.

Should we assume that also goes for her MySpace and Facebook pages where she deletes the postings that are a little too close to the truth for her comfort level? Please tell me LE is monitoring everything....

[BeanE]

Originally Posted by YellowSubmarine

Just wanted to post this as it has a lot of good info on TS & JS. It is all pretty much stuff we already knew -- just wanted this all in one place.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...g3.html?cat=41

There is this, tho, in regards to the supposed friend of theirs in SA:



Anyone know if we've ever heard either of them deny knowing anyone in SA?

Is there a link from a news source on this friend? That blog is known for its inaccuracies.

[Marigold]

According to azcentral, The Smiths have hired criminal attorney Mike Kimerer:
http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news...282010-CR.html

Kimerer's known for unsuccessfully using the homicidal somnabulism defense in the Scott Falater trial. (Falater was convicted of stabbing his wife Yarmila to death):

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1999-...wake-up-call/1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicid...m#Falater_case


He's also attorney of record for Debra Jean Milke, a mother convicted in the death of her young son. Milke has been in the local news lately because she may get a new trial soon.

http://www.debbiemilke.com/en/defens...dderrick.shtml

[BeanE]

Originally Posted by Marigold

According to azcentral, The Smiths have hired criminal attorney Mike Kimerer:
http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news...282010-CR.html

Kimerer's known for unsuccessfully using the homicidal somnabulism defense in the Scott Falater trial. (Falater was convicted of stabbing his wife Yarmila to death):

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1999-...wake-up-call/1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicid...m#Falater_case


He's also attorney of record for Debra Jean Milke, a mother convicted in the death of her young son. Milke has been in the local news lately because she may get a new trial soon.

http://www.debbiemilke.com/en/defens...dderrick.shtml

I'm so sick of hearing that people's attorneys have told them not to talk to LE, not to talk to the media. Just once I'd like to hear an attorney say, "And I immediately told my client they have got to do the right thing, and tell LE everything they know, and tell the truth right away. The most important we do is to help the endangered child in this case, and then we'll deal as best we can with the consequences to my client for any wrongdoing should any have taken place."

It's about the child. Always.

[YellowSubmarine]

I'm just trying to figure out the reasoning for needing an atty that handles murder cases? I mean, if they didn't do anything wrong, wouldn't they just need an atty to help them with the media and guide them through?

[YellowSubmarine]

http://www.superlawyers.com/arizona/...272f96aca.html

I'm having trouble accessing their website listed as: www.kimerer.com

[fran]

I'm really not surprised the Smiths have obtained the services of an attorney. Actually, I'm surprised they didn't do it before now. But they know from Logan's recent interviews LE is including them in 'building the case' against EJ and he even indicated what LE is looking at for them, 'aiding in parental interference,' or something close to that.

I don't believe the fact this attorney has defended those accused of murder is anything of importance. It's just that he's a high-profile criminal attorney. I wouldn't even doubt if he called the Smiths first and they finally decided to obtain his services.

I sure hope they find Gabriel before any of this goes to trial. The longer EJ remains silent on where Gabriel is, the more I fear the worst.

JMHO
fran

[Prof]

http://www.kpho.com/video/22241483/index.html

After the "interview" with EJ's twin brother, there is a segment on TS and how she filled out the court documents for EG

The reporter asks, if we know you lied about this, how is it that we are supposed to believe anything you say, and Tammi' s answer "Just pray on it" and something to the effect that she just wanted to help someone not get hurt

This IMO is evidence of her attitude that as long as she is helping someone, that she is innocent, no matter what means of help she provides

[Prof]

Originally Posted by YellowSubmarine

I'm just trying to figure out the reasoning for needing an atty that handles murder cases? I mean, if they didn't do anything wrong, wouldn't they just need an atty to help them with the media and guide them through?

Just respectfully bumping a post by AZ lawyer from thread 18 page 4 to this thread because I think it is an answer to your question

Originally Posted by AZlawyer

Mike K is a well-known criminal lawyer here. He was president of the AZ Bar at one point, I believe, and is known for his creative approaches to defending his clients. He is also very comfortable with using the media to assist him in his defense.

Seems a natural fit, since the Smiths have been using in the media to assist them in their defense all along IMO
Oh and since the media recently mentioned that Temple police are trying to build a case against them, they would naturally need a criminal attorney IMO

[BeanE]

Originally Posted by Prof

http://www.kpho.com/video/22241483/index.html

After the "interview" with EJ's twin brother, there is a segment on TS and how she filled out the court documents for EG

The reporter asks, if we know you lied about this, how is it that we are supposed to believe anything you say, and Tammi' s answer "Just pray on it" and something to the effect that she just wanted to help someone not get hurt

This IMO is evidence of her attitude that as long as she is helping someone, that she is innocent, no matter what means of help she provides

She needs to be praying to get smart enough not to confess to committing a crime on nationwide television.

[fran]

I've tried to figure why TS said she was going to be a 'foster mom' and referred to H's 'brother,' all AFTER EJ had picked up Gabriel to allegedly see LM. I think I may have finally made some sense of it. See what you think.

EJ gave Gabriel to TS and JS with the intentions of them adopting him. But when LM wouldn't cooperate and filed for custody, EJ knew the Smiths wouldn't be able to keep him. She needed a new plan to keep GJ away from LM. She unilaterally decided to take the baby somewhere else to rid herself of him, somewhere where LM didn't know about. Thus the trip to Texas.

The lie to the Ss that she was taking him to see his daddy may have just been the 'excuse' she used to get them to agree to let her leave with the child. When they may have objected, she may have told them that she'd take him to see his daddy to placate him but would return with the baby and they could be 'foster parents.'

Perhaps TS and JS really didn't know she was going to SA and when they found out she was gone from AZ and they finally had contact with her, they tried to persuade her to return. Thus the flurry of phone calls and messages, etc.....

It's possible that like others have said here, EJ may have made contact with another possible 'adoptive family' but she certainly couldn't tell TS that. After all, they thought they were going to get the baby. That's why they tried to hook her up with the gal Jan in Tn and their house they own there. But then EJ went completely rogue on the S's and we now have this messed up case.

Maybe the Ss don't know for sure, like us and LE, what happened to Gabriel. Like everyone else, they're working as if Gabriel is alive. They thought they could get EJ to at least talk to them, thus the insinuating themselves into the case. IMO, they may have liked the lime-lite, which, frankly did them no favors.

Now it's all coming back to bite them! That's what happens when you play with fire!

JMHO
fran

PS...........I started to put this on another thread here, but deleted it and brought it over here.

does anyone have an opinion on this theory? fran

[LandAuxvasse]

Originally Posted by fran

I've tried to figure why TS said she was going to be a 'foster mom' and referred to H's 'brother,' all AFTER EJ had picked up Gabriel to allegedly see LM. I think I may have finally made some sense of it. See what you think.

...

does anyone have an opinion on this theory? fran

snipped by me...

I'm really on the fence about these people... their actions have just been very bizarre, but they also seem like the life they lead is somewhat bizarre, so that it might be "normal" for them???

[BeanE]

Originally Posted by fran

I've tried to figure why TS said she was going to be a 'foster mom' and referred to H's 'brother,' all AFTER EJ had picked up Gabriel to allegedly see LM. I think I may have finally made some sense of it. See what you think.

EJ gave Gabriel to TS and JS with the intentions of them adopting him. But when LM wouldn't cooperate and filed for custody, EJ knew the Smiths wouldn't be able to keep him. She needed a new plan to keep GJ away from LM. She unilaterally decided to take the baby somewhere else to rid herself of him, somewhere where LM didn't know about. Thus the trip to Texas.

The lie to the Ss that she was taking him to see his daddy may have just been the 'excuse' she used to get them to agree to let her leave with the child. When they may have objected, she may have told them that she'd take him to see his daddy to placate him but would return with the baby and they could be 'foster parents.'

Perhaps TS and JS really didn't know she was going to SA and when they found out she was gone from AZ and they finally had contact with her, they tried to persuade her to return. Thus the flurry of phone calls and messages, etc.....

It's possible that like others have said here, EJ may have made contact with another possible 'adoptive family' but she certainly couldn't tell TS that. After all, they thought they were going to get the baby. That's why they tried to hook her up with the gal Jan in Tn and their house they own there. But then EJ went completely rogue on the S's and we now have this messed up case.

Maybe the Ss don't know for sure, like us and LE, what happened to Gabriel. Like everyone else, they're working as if Gabriel is alive. They thought they could get EJ to at least talk to them, thus the insinuating themselves into the case. IMO, they may have liked the lime-lite, which, frankly did them no favors.

Now it's all coming back to bite them! That's what happens when you play with fire!

JMHO
fran

PS...........I started to put this on another thread here, but deleted it and brought it over here.

does anyone have an opinion on this theory? fran

We are thinking alike.

ETA: and it would be great to have a thread to sleuth Eliz finding someone to give Gabe to w/o the Smiths knowing about it/being involved.

[OneLove]

Originally Posted by fran

I've tried to figure why TS said she was going to be a 'foster mom' and referred to H's 'brother,' all AFTER EJ had picked up Gabriel to allegedly see LM. I think I may have finally made some sense of it. See what you think.

EJ gave Gabriel to TS and JS with the intentions of them adopting him. But when LM wouldn't cooperate and filed for custody, EJ knew the Smiths wouldn't be able to keep him. She needed a new plan to keep GJ away from LM. She unilaterally decided to take the baby somewhere else to rid herself of him, somewhere where LM didn't know about. Thus the trip to Texas.

The lie to the Ss that she was taking him to see his daddy may have just been the 'excuse' she used to get them to agree to let her leave with the child. When they may have objected, she may have told them that she'd take him to see his daddy to placate him but would return with the baby and they could be 'foster parents.'

Perhaps TS and JS really didn't know she was going to SA and when they found out she was gone from AZ and they finally had contact with her, they tried to persuade her to return. Thus the flurry of phone calls and messages, etc.....

It's possible that like others have said here, EJ may have made contact with another possible 'adoptive family' but she certainly couldn't tell TS that. After all, they thought they were going to get the baby. That's why they tried to hook her up with the gal Jan in Tn and their house they own there. But then EJ went completely rogue on the S's and we now have this messed up case.

Maybe the Ss don't know for sure, like us and LE, what happened to Gabriel. Like everyone else, they're working as if Gabriel is alive. They thought they could get EJ to at least talk to them, thus the insinuating themselves into the case. IMO, they may have liked the lime-lite, which, frankly did them no favors.

Now it's all coming back to bite them! That's what happens when you play with fire!

JMHO
fran

PS...........I started to put this on another thread here, but deleted it and brought it over here.

does anyone have an opinion on this theory? fran

Seems well-thought out and plausible. I especially agree with the part about EJ going rogue.

I also tend to think that the idea of "abandonment" was a strategy given to EJ by TS. I wouldn't be surprised if TS has used this successfully before in getting custody of JS's grandchild. IF that is true, then I think the Smiths coached her to run rather than let Logan have Gabe for his lawful period of custody. The timer was already running on that 30 days, so I think the plan was to keep the count-down going so they could charge "abandonment".

I suppose it is possible that the Smiths only gave her the strategy and helped her falsify documents before she ran, and then didn't know anything from the time she took off. But with their very high need to be in control, I don't think so. The way Tammi has proven herself to be a habitual liar, I have to look at everything she says as a potential lie.

[STEADFAST]

Originally Posted by fran

I've tried to figure why TS said she was going to be a 'foster mom' and referred to H's 'brother,' all AFTER EJ had picked up Gabriel to allegedly see LM. I think I may have finally made some sense of it. See what you think.

EJ gave Gabriel to TS and JS with the intentions of them adopting him. But when LM wouldn't cooperate and filed for custody, EJ knew the Smiths wouldn't be able to keep him. She needed a new plan to keep GJ away from LM. She unilaterally decided to take the baby somewhere else to rid herself of him, somewhere where LM didn't know about. Thus the trip to Texas.

The lie to the Ss that she was taking him to see his daddy may have just been the 'excuse' she used to get them to agree to let her leave with the child. When they may have objected, she may have told them that she'd take him to see his daddy to placate him but would return with the baby and they could be 'foster parents.'

Perhaps TS and JS really didn't know she was going to SA and when they found out she was gone from AZ and they finally had contact with her, they tried to persuade her to return. Thus the flurry of phone calls and messages, etc.....

It's possible that like others have said here, EJ may have made contact with another possible 'adoptive family' but she certainly couldn't tell TS that. After all, they thought they were going to get the baby. That's why they tried to hook her up with the gal Jan in Tn and their house they own there. But then EJ went completely rogue on the S's and we now have this messed up case.

Maybe the Ss don't know for sure, like us and LE, what happened to Gabriel. Like everyone else, they're working as if Gabriel is alive. They thought they could get EJ to at least talk to them, thus the insinuating themselves into the case. IMO, they may have liked the lime-lite, which, frankly did them no favors.

Now it's all coming back to bite them! That's what happens when you play with fire!

JMHO
fran

PS...........I started to put this on another thread here, but deleted it and brought it over here.

does anyone have an opinion on this theory? fran

I think it's a really good theory, fran. At first, when info about the Smiths was coming in and we all saw how she bends the truth and outright lies, it seemed most likely that she was involved in Gabriel's disappearance to a large extent. However, now that time has passed and nothing has come out that connects her directly to an S.A. adoption plan, I think her culpability is just a matter of her fraudulently filling out the paternity information, advising EJ (incorrectly) about changing jurisdictions and being a part of trying to pressure Logan into signing away his parental rights by telling him he needed to sign if he wanted to see his son again. It's still pretty bad, though, and I think it's probably criminal.

[Kamille]

I'd still like to know why TPS posted a picture of Gabriel on her FB asking people to pray for him on December 15th. Pray for what?

The Smiths came out of the gate on NG lying about their contact with EJ while she was on the run.

January 7th...

GRACE: How often did the mom -- mommy, 23-year-old Elizabeth Johnson contact you while she was between Tempe, San Antonio, and Miami Beach?

J. SMITH: Well, between.

T. SMITH: Do you mean once she left?

GRACE: Yes.

J. SMITH: She didn`t contact us any between here and there. We only found out when we did the MySpace thing and found her account and then we.

(I find it interesting that JS answered this. Maybe he really didn't know there had been contact between EJ and TS?)

T. SMITH: And then she texted us that message.

(Texted what message? Did she mean myspace private messaged her? Or the message that she didn't really kill Gabriel that she supposedly sent right after her text to LM?)

J. SMITH: We text her and all that.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Now I`ve got that message and it says -- I`ve got it right here. It says, "I am ever worried this e-mail can be traced to where I am, so I probably won`t e-mail again. But I had to let you know, we are all right, because I know you must be worried sick and I am so sorry for that. I really am."

What was she worried about? Why was she worried about being traced if she had done nothing wrong, Tammi?

T. SMITH: Well, once we did start to talk to her, she said that her plan was to keep running.




They also stated during that same interview that they believed at that time, before EJ left, that EJ had physical custody and that LM only had visitation rights?


JULIA: How long was it before the father knew the child was going to be adopted, that the mother and the adoptive parents were planning to put the -- or she was planning to put this baby up for adoption before the father knew?

GRACE: Right. To Jack and Tammi Smith, when did you guys try to get the father to agree and learn that he was not part of this. I believe she represented you at the beginning that he was OK with it?

J. SMITH: She represented in the very beginning that he was back and forth.

GRACE: Yes.

J. SMITH: Back and forth with that. And so he did not have -- we asked to speak with him. He did not have a cell phone at that time. I think he`s living with his father. We couldn`t get a hold of him so that`s when we took the...

(they had no problem reaching him by cell phone on the 22nd when they send that text)

T. SMITH: We were supposed to meet up with him and the father at court. When we went to court that day, it was all settled and set up for us to go have lunch together. And go to the park and have them spend time with the baby and discuss it all.

But when Elizabeth won custody, they just walked past us and left and they didn`t -- they didn`t come back and we waited for about 40 minutes and they didn`t come back.

(they believed she won custody on December 17th?)

GRACE: Now, it`s my understanding, Elizabeth never had formal custody.

T. SMITH: She did. She had -- she had the custody -- physical custody. And then when she went to court, when he was.

GRACE: Let me rephrase. It`s my understanding she had shared custody with the father. They had shared custody.

T. SMITH: No.

GRACE: That he would get to visit. No?

T. SMITH: You`ll have to look at the documents, but I can tell you that she had physical custody and then when they went to court, he was trying to get custody.

J. SMITH: Sure.

T. SMITH: And the judge gave her custody and said that he could have a visit.

GRACE: OK, hold on.

T. SMITH: That`s all I know.

GRACE: Matt Zarrell, you`ve got the documents, I`ve got the documents. What do they say and give it to me in a nutshell, Matt.

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Mom and dad had shared custody. They had split the week. Mom took her for -- mom took Gabriel for a couple of days, dad took the baby for a couple of days.



So before EJ took off, the Smiths had Gabriel living with them because EJ let them keep him at their home and they apparently believed that she still had full physical custody? When did LM apply for the hearing on the 28th? Was it before or after she left? I thought it was after. If that is the case, they didn't know she had to be back for the 28th? This just keeps getting more confusing the more I look at it.

If the Smiths didn't have anything to do with EJ leaving, why would they lie about their contact with her while she was gone on NG when it's obvious by the text exchange with LM on the 22nd that they were in contact with her?

Going back to their statements on NG right near the beginning is really interesting reading I find.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../07/ng.01.html

[BeanE]

By 'here' and 'there' I think they mean Tempe and SA. Then around Dec 22, Logan tells them about Eliz's Myspace and they leave a message on it, at which point Eliz messages them, and then phones them. There's one more interview (I believe it's another NG) that makes it clearer.

Then they've said they kept in touch via messaging and phone, until Dec 27 when Eliz refuses to talk by phone anymore. They continue messaging.

The period of time they had no contact is Dec 18 to around Dec 22.

I think the article the other day where Logan showed the reporter his text from them shows a date of Dec 22.

[AZlawyer]

Originally Posted by Kamille

I'd still like to know why TPS posted a picture of Gabriel on her FB asking people to pray for him on December 15th. Pray for what?

The Smiths came out of the gate on NG lying about their contact with EJ while she was on the run.

January 7th...

GRACE: How often did the mom -- mommy, 23-year-old Elizabeth Johnson contact you while she was between Tempe, San Antonio, and Miami Beach?

J. SMITH: Well, between.

T. SMITH: Do you mean once she left?

GRACE: Yes.

J. SMITH: She didn`t contact us any between here and there. We only found out when we did the MySpace thing and found her account and then we.

(I find it interesting that JS answered this. Maybe he really didn't know there had been contact between EJ and TS?)

T. SMITH: And then she texted us that message.

(Texted what message? Did she mean myspace private messaged her? Or the message that she didn't really kill Gabriel that she supposedly sent right after her text to LM?)

J. SMITH: We text her and all that.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Now I`ve got that message and it says -- I`ve got it right here. It says, "I am ever worried this e-mail can be traced to where I am, so I probably won`t e-mail again. But I had to let you know, we are all right, because I know you must be worried sick and I am so sorry for that. I really am."

What was she worried about? Why was she worried about being traced if she had done nothing wrong, Tammi?

T. SMITH: Well, once we did start to talk to her, she said that her plan was to keep running.




They also stated during that same interview that they believed at that time, before EJ left, that EJ had physical custody and that LM only had visitation rights?


JULIA: How long was it before the father knew the child was going to be adopted, that the mother and the adoptive parents were planning to put the -- or she was planning to put this baby up for adoption before the father knew?

GRACE: Right. To Jack and Tammi Smith, when did you guys try to get the father to agree and learn that he was not part of this. I believe she represented you at the beginning that he was OK with it?

J. SMITH: She represented in the very beginning that he was back and forth.

GRACE: Yes.

J. SMITH: Back and forth with that. And so he did not have -- we asked to speak with him. He did not have a cell phone at that time. I think he`s living with his father. We couldn`t get a hold of him so that`s when we took the...

(they had no problem reaching him by cell phone on the 22nd when they send that text)

T. SMITH: We were supposed to meet up with him and the father at court. When we went to court that day, it was all settled and set up for us to go have lunch together. And go to the park and have them spend time with the baby and discuss it all.

But when Elizabeth won custody, they just walked past us and left and they didn`t -- they didn`t come back and we waited for about 40 minutes and they didn`t come back.

(they believed she won custody on December 17th?)

GRACE: Now, it`s my understanding, Elizabeth never had formal custody.

T. SMITH: She did. She had -- she had the custody -- physical custody. And then when she went to court, when he was.

GRACE: Let me rephrase. It`s my understanding she had shared custody with the father. They had shared custody.

T. SMITH: No.

GRACE: That he would get to visit. No?

T. SMITH: You`ll have to look at the documents, but I can tell you that she had physical custody and then when they went to court, he was trying to get custody.

J. SMITH: Sure.

T. SMITH: And the judge gave her custody and said that he could have a visit.

GRACE: OK, hold on.

T. SMITH: That`s all I know.

GRACE: Matt Zarrell, you`ve got the documents, I`ve got the documents. What do they say and give it to me in a nutshell, Matt.

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Mom and dad had shared custody. They had split the week. Mom took her for -- mom took Gabriel for a couple of days, dad took the baby for a couple of days.



So before EJ took off, the Smiths had Gabriel living with them because EJ let them keep him at their home and they apparently believed that she still had full physical custody? When did LM apply for the hearing on the 28th? Was it before or after she left? I thought it was after. If that is the case, they didn't know she had to be back for the 28th? This just keeps getting more confusing the more I look at it.

If the Smiths didn't have anything to do with EJ leaving, why would they lie about their contact with her while she was gone on NG when it's obvious by the text exchange with LM on the 22nd that they were in contact with her?

Going back to their statements on NG right near the beginning is really interesting reading I find.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../07/ng.01.html

This is very odd. It sounds like the Smiths were actually at court with Elizabeth on the 17th, but somehow walked away with the impression that she had "won custody" and Logan was only entitled to "a visit." The court records are perfectly clear that E & L were awarded temporary joint custody, switching off on Wednesdays and Sundays, until a final hearing (which was to have been held a couple of months later).

[DairyGirl]

Originally Posted by fran

I've tried to figure why TS said she was going to be a 'foster mom' and referred to H's 'brother,' all AFTER EJ had picked up Gabriel to allegedly see LM. I think I may have finally made some sense of it. See what you think.

EJ gave Gabriel to TS and JS with the intentions of them adopting him. But when LM wouldn't cooperate and filed for custody, EJ knew the Smiths wouldn't be able to keep him. She needed a new plan to keep GJ away from LM. She unilaterally decided to take the baby somewhere else to rid herself of him, somewhere where LM didn't know about. Thus the trip to Texas.

The lie to the Ss that she was taking him to see his daddy may have just been the 'excuse' she used to get them to agree to let her leave with the child. When they may have objected, she may have told them that she'd take him to see his daddy to placate him but would return with the baby and they could be 'foster parents.'

Perhaps TS and JS really didn't know she was going to SA and when they found out she was gone from AZ and they finally had contact with her, they tried to persuade her to return. Thus the flurry of phone calls and messages, etc.....

It's possible that like others have said here, EJ may have made contact with another possible 'adoptive family' but she certainly couldn't tell TS that. After all, they thought they were going to get the baby. That's why they tried to hook her up with the gal Jan in Tn and their house they own there. But then EJ went completely rogue on the S's and we now have this messed up case.

Maybe the Ss don't know for sure, like us and LE, what happened to Gabriel. Like everyone else, they're working as if Gabriel is alive. They thought they could get EJ to at least talk to them, thus the insinuating themselves into the case. IMO, they may have liked the lime-lite, which, frankly did them no favors.

Now it's all coming back to bite them! That's what happens when you play with fire!

JMHO
fran

PS...........I started to put this on another thread here, but deleted it and brought it over here.

does anyone have an opinion on this theory? fran

It could be a possibility but I really think the Smiths knew that EJ was running and going to San Antonio and possiblity sent her there. They knew full well that she was selling everything she owned , including her dogs and had rented her room. Why would she do that prior to just taking Gabriel to his father? I also believe that they gave her the GPS and that is one of the reasons that LE is looking at them as POI's. I don't know if they were sending her to TN where they have a home and also know the adoption person, JM or if they had another plan involving San Antonio but I do believe they knew she was going there. Now, once she got there and found out that LM was playing hard ball she very well could have changed her plans. I am certain that the Smiths plan did not include Gabriel going to another family and it may be at this point that EJ went rogue. She may have lined up another family from the internet. Maybe even before she went to San Antonio but I still believe that the Smiths had something to do with her going to Antonio or at least her leaving AZ. The plan may have been to change jurisdictions and when they knew that wouldn't work EJ went into her own plan.

[Kamille]

Originally Posted by AZlawyer

This is very odd. It sounds like the Smiths were actually at court with Elizabeth on the 17th, but somehow walked away with the impression that she had "won custody" and Logan was only entitled to "a visit." The court records are perfectly clear that E & L were awarded temporary joint custody, switching off on Wednesdays and Sundays, until a final hearing (which was to have been held a couple of months later).

And LM's first "visit" was supposed to be on Sunday the 20th so why wouldn't the Smiths think it was odd that EJ was taking Gabriel to see him in the evening on a Friday?

And even though they had limited communication, mostly myspace and texting according to the Smiths, when EJ was in SA, they knew that she had sold her dogs, her laptop, her jewelery, rented a room in her trailer and had cash her last social assistance check to get the money to go to SA.

And when EJ left, there was no hearing scheduled for the 28th and the Smiths believed she still had full custody. LM called for an emergency hearing sometime after she left. But he apparently knew she was going out of town to visit "friends" for the holidays and was okay with that.

So EJ told LM she was going out of town for the holidays and told the Smiths that she was taking Gabriel to visit LM? And none of them had any idea what she was up to until the 22nd? And at that time the Smiths texted LM about signing the adoption papers, he said no, and "a woman" called EJ on the 23rd yelling at her? That's what I'm getting so far.

[OneLove]

Originally Posted by AZlawyer

This is very odd. It sounds like the Smiths were actually at court with Elizabeth on the 17th, but somehow walked away with the impression that she had "won custody" and Logan was only entitled to "a visit." The court records are perfectly clear that E & L were awarded temporary joint custody, switching off on Wednesdays and Sundays, until a final hearing (which was to have been held a couple of months later).

If Eliz is Borderline Personality Disordered, I can totally see her walking out of the hearing and telling them whatever lie she wanted her reality to be, or whatever lie would manipulate the Smiths into doing what SHE wanted them to do. Maybe that included playing on their sympathy enough to fund her trip out of there, to whatever degree. Maybe she sold the same story to her grandfather too, who as far as I know, didn't file a missing person report or report his car missing either. Did he have more than one car to use?

I personally have a BPD in the family by marriage and have SEEN her walk out of court hearings and lie outrageously about the ruling. She was going to WIN, by God, even if it was in her own falsely created reality. She lies so much that some family members believe she is so separated from reality that she believes her own lies. I don't buy that, but it sure does manipulate those who do!!

[TearsforCaylee]

Originally Posted by fran

I've tried to figure why TS said she was going to be a 'foster mom' and referred to H's 'brother,' all AFTER EJ had picked up Gabriel to allegedly see LM. I think I may have finally made some sense of it. See what you think.

EJ gave Gabriel to TS and JS with the intentions of them adopting him. But when LM wouldn't cooperate and filed for custody, EJ knew the Smiths wouldn't be able to keep him. She needed a new plan to keep GJ away from LM. She unilaterally decided to take the baby somewhere else to rid herself of him, somewhere where LM didn't know about. Thus the trip to Texas.

The lie to the Ss that she was taking him to see his daddy may have just been the 'excuse' she used to get them to agree to let her leave with the child. When they may have objected, she may have told them that she'd take him to see his daddy to placate him but would return with the baby and they could be 'foster parents.'

Perhaps TS and JS really didn't know she was going to SA and when they found out she was gone from AZ and they finally had contact with her, they tried to persuade her to return. Thus the flurry of phone calls and messages, etc.....

It's possible that like others have said here, EJ may have made contact with another possible 'adoptive family' but she certainly couldn't tell TS that. After all, they thought they were going to get the baby. That's why they tried to hook her up with the gal Jan in Tn and their house they own there. But then EJ went completely rogue on the S's and we now have this messed up case.

Maybe the Ss don't know for sure, like us and LE, what happened to Gabriel. Like everyone else, they're working as if Gabriel is alive. They thought they could get EJ to at least talk to them, thus the insinuating themselves into the case. IMO, they may have liked the lime-lite, which, frankly did them no favors.

Now it's all coming back to bite them! That's what happens when you play with fire!

JMHO
fran

PS...........I started to put this on another thread here, but deleted it and brought it over here.

does anyone have an opinion on this theory? fran

Fran ...

Good theory and possible, except TS herself allegedly admitted in her own statements (I believe on National TV no less) that she "knew" EJ was going to run. I can try to find the actual statements and provide a link, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading/hearing this directly from TS herself. Hence that would nullify the theory of the Ss's not knowing. I agree though that maybe just maybe they initially knew something but then EJ went rogue on them. But at the same time, I'm still not completely convinced of that either with them putting themselves in the limelight like they have since the beginning. What are they trying to prove? If you have nothing to hide (or coverup), then why not get out of the picture and just let LE do their job? They will find out the truth soon enough and that other party can be brought to justice. Unless of course, you don't really "want" justice because you know that would mean spending some time behind bars.

The only way I see a person possibly NOT staying out of the media is for potential damage control as well as to try to further impede an investigation by police because they have something to hide. Sometimes the media can help you along with that, either willingly or unwillingly .... think G&C in the Anthony case. The Ss's are to this case what I believe G&C in many ways were to the Anthony case ... fake it til you make it and taint the public's beliefs/feelings on the issue all the while potentially misleading LE in the process. I think that's what TPS and JS are trying to potentially do now. Manipulate, cover and distort the truth anyway they can in order to make it harder for LE to really find out what that is because somewhere behind the curtain I believe the Ss's know they are going to be found behind it somewhere. But that's just my personal opinion ... you can give me my two cents back later

[danisisa]

I think you all are right that they did not know she was going to leave.....But, I do not think TS would let G go just like that. I agree that TS was on the phone yelling at EJ. I think that is when the other plan came into place so TS could have G. Check my post in THings that make you go hmmmmm.

[OneLove]

It could also be as simple as the Smiths lying about thinking EJ still had custody, because if they KNEW she did NOT at that time, and that Logan had LEGAL custodial rights, it sure would foil that 30 day abandonment countdown. They needed to get EJ out of town, and fast.