Websleuths
Go Back   Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community > Crimes and Trials > Trials > Gabriel Johnson

Notices

Gabriel Johnson 8 Months old MISSING!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-08-2010, 04:28 PM
NewMommy09's Avatar
NewMommy09 NewMommy09 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Near Dallas, TX
Posts: 1,720
Legal and Law Questions - * No Discussion *

* No Discussion - Questions Only *

================================================== =====

BeanE suggested this would be a good thread topic and I totally agree. Everyone, please post your legal questions related to Gabriel's case here.

I would like to know if it's possible for a plea deal to be worked out for EJ. And if so, how could/would it work? Is it possible for different jurisdictions to work together for a plea deal reguarding all possible charges? Or does each jurisdiction have to handle their charges and plea deals seperately?
I know this is all only hypothetical at this time. Just looking for some general info on how this MIGHT go. Thanks.
__________________
Bring the Missing Home!!!
Find Kara Kopetsky!!!

God watch over baby Gabriel Johnson
Tips: gabrieljohnson.tips@gmail.com

Last edited by BeanE; 05-06-2010 at 04:53 AM. Reason: add No Discussion to title & OP
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to NewMommy09 For This Useful Post:
  #2  
Old 02-08-2010, 04:34 PM
Concernedmomarizona Concernedmomarizona is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 126
No Questions Asked Return of Baby Gabriel?

Can LE make a statement that there will be no questions asked for the person/people who safely return Baby Gabriel? What process would these people have to go through to ensure that they won't be prosecuted? Can their lawyer anonymously talk to LE and secure a deal??

I just know I would be scared if I was in their place.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Concernedmomarizona For This Useful Post:
  #3  
Old 02-08-2010, 10:43 PM
AZlawyer's Avatar
AZlawyer AZlawyer is offline
Verified Attorney
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: AZ
Posts: 5,942
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewMommy09 View Post
BeanE suggested this would be a good thread topic and I totally agree. Everyone, please post your legal questions related to Gabriel's case here.

I would like to know if it's possible for a plea deal to be worked out for EJ. And if so, how could/would it work? Is it possible for San Antonio to work with Maricopa County for a plea deal reguarding all possible charges? Or does each jurisdiction have to handle their charges and plea deals seperately?
I know this is all only hypothetical at this time. Just looking for some general info on how this MIGHT go. Thanks.

ETA: Generic Legal info for all jurisdictions could also be posted here.
The charges would be handled by the jurisdictions in which they were brought, but I don't see any reason the 2 jurisdictions couldn't work together on a plea deal.
__________________

"It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to AZlawyer For This Useful Post:
  #4  
Old 02-08-2010, 10:46 PM
AZlawyer's Avatar
AZlawyer AZlawyer is offline
Verified Attorney
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: AZ
Posts: 5,942
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concernedmomarizona View Post
Can LE make a statement that there will be no questions asked for the person/people who safely return Baby Gabriel? What process would these people have to go through to ensure that they won't be prosecuted? Can their lawyer anonymously talk to LE and secure a deal??

I just know I would be scared if I was in their place.
I guess LE could make that statement, and a lawyer could attempt to negotiate a deal for his safe return, but I don't think that LE will do that. I think, if Gabriel's alive, LE would be concerned that these people will just arrange more underground adoptions if they aren't stopped.
__________________

"It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to AZlawyer For This Useful Post:
  #5  
Old 02-08-2010, 11:07 PM
Concernedmomarizona Concernedmomarizona is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 126
Assuming Elizabeth did give Gabriel away in an underground adoption...

And her lawyer believes that, what is the lawyer's possible strategy? Are they waiting for a plea deal before she'll talk? What else could be going on behind the scenes?
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Concernedmomarizona For This Useful Post:
  #6  
Old 02-08-2010, 11:13 PM
JBean JBean is offline
WS Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dana Point,CA
Posts: 20,221
Please be sure to refer to the Expert Poster link in my signature so you know who is posting as a verified lawyer.
We are all free to answer questions on this thread, but please know that the only posters we know to be lawyers are those listed at the link in my signature.
Thanks.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to JBean For This Useful Post:
  #7  
Old 02-09-2010, 08:25 AM
BeanE BeanE is offline
Inactive
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,172
Hi, AZ. If falsified/illegal documents were used, then a legal adoption attempted, is there any required checking of the documents?

For example, if a falsified/forged document relinquishing the father's paternal rights were used, does the attorney or the court check that document against court records to verify if it's legitimate? Or do they just pass the documents on through with no checking?

Or does that depend on the state the attempted legal adoption is taking place in?

TIA
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to BeanE For This Useful Post:
  #8  
Old 02-09-2010, 11:31 AM
AZlawyer's Avatar
AZlawyer AZlawyer is offline
Verified Attorney
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: AZ
Posts: 5,942
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
Hi, AZ. If falsified/illegal documents were used, then a legal adoption attempted, is there any required checking of the documents?

For example, if a falsified/forged document relinquishing the father's paternal rights were used, does the attorney or the court check that document against court records to verify if it's legitimate? Or do they just pass the documents on through with no checking?

Or does that depend on the state the attempted legal adoption is taking place in?

TIA
I would think that an attorney would want to see "certified" court documents--usually they have a raised stamp on them--although things like a document signed by the father giving up his parental rights might not be a court document at all, so wouldn't be certified. It would probably be notarized, but that wouldn't be too tough to forge. (Or to get a real notary to sign, if you had a passable fake ID.)
__________________

"It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to AZlawyer For This Useful Post:
  #9  
Old 02-09-2010, 11:40 AM
AZlawyer's Avatar
AZlawyer AZlawyer is offline
Verified Attorney
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: AZ
Posts: 5,942
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concernedmomarizona View Post
And her lawyer believes that, what is the lawyer's possible strategy? Are they waiting for a plea deal before she'll talk? What else could be going on behind the scenes?
I don't think she'll get a plea deal unless her lawyer provides some clue of what kind of information she has to give. I.e., is she just offering to tell where G's body was dumped, or to provide a real description of everyone involved with an underground adoption that could potentially lead to recovering a live Gabriel? Obviously the second option will be worth more to prosecutors. EJ's lawyer is going to have to take a proactive role, not just sit around and wait for a plea deal.

I believe EJ's lawyers immediately started working on her to convince her that the situation was SERIOUS and that she needed to talk. Remember her grandpa said that EJ was freaked out about getting 20 years? I bet it was EJ's lawyers who put that fear into her. I just don't know how successful they've been...

I still wonder if that jail phone call from Eliz. to Tammy's cell phone ("you arranged this whole thing," etc.) was set up by LE as part of an attempted plea deal. Did we ever get any more information on that?
__________________

"It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94
Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to AZlawyer For This Useful Post:
  #10  
Old 02-10-2010, 10:13 AM
southern_comfort's Avatar
southern_comfort southern_comfort is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 967
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXHOPE View Post
You would think they would of offered her a serious plea deal before the huge undertaking of searching this landfill.
I'm bringing this over from the landfill search thread, since I am going OT.

If EJ did a professional underground adoption, it's entirely possible (and even likely) that if EJ spilled every bit of information she has, it still wouldn't be enough to find Gabriel. Those transactions are orchestrated to ensure that. If she can't produce Gabriel, then she doesn't have much bargaining power, IMO.

As a mother, I can't imagine not putting my own liberty and/or life on the line to find my endangered child... but then, I wouldn't put my child into that situation in the first place.

That being said, from a legal perspective, even if Gabriel had been alive and well when EJ last saw him and she honestly believed he was going to a family that would love him, her lawyer has to help her weigh the consequences of Gabriel possibly having been harmed after EJ gave him up, and what that would mean for her future. If I were her lawyer and I knew he had been handed over to human traffickers, even with good intentions, I think I would be cautious about what information I'd advise her to divulge. I'd be very concerned that even the appearance of her cooperating and talking too much to authorities might cause someone to dispose of the child. I would do my best to ensure that whatever she did say would be kept under wraps by authorities -- and I would be very upset when things leaked out, like mention of parking lots when as far as the public knew, my client had only spoken of a park.

It will be very bad for EJ legally if Gabriel is not alive and he is located, no matter how it happened, or when, or at whose hand. At the same time, finding him alive is her ticket out of the jam she's made for herself. If EJ did adopt him out, there's a very delicate balancing act going on now for her lawyer.
__________________
If I can stop one heart from breaking,
I shall not live in vain;
If I can ease one life the aching,
Or cool one pain,
Or help one fainting robin
Unto his nest again,
I shall not live in vain.
~Emily Dickinson~
Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to southern_comfort For This Useful Post:
  #11  
Old 02-10-2010, 01:40 PM
stormmolly's Avatar
stormmolly stormmolly is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 61
Hi AZ,

Could LE have seached the landfill before they changed it to a homicide investigation, or is that maybe why they did change it, I did try to research this but could not find anything,
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to stormmolly For This Useful Post:
  #12  
Old 02-10-2010, 02:02 PM
AZlawyer's Avatar
AZlawyer AZlawyer is offline
Verified Attorney
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: AZ
Posts: 5,942
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormmolly View Post
Hi AZ,

Could LE have seached the landfill before they changed it to a homicide investigation, or is that maybe why they did change it, I did try to research this but could not find anything,
I don't know what the procedure is, but I've seen several articles in which the SA police stress that they had to classify the case as a homicide investigation in order to search the landfill.
__________________

"It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to AZlawyer For This Useful Post:
  #13  
Old 02-10-2010, 02:50 PM
nitasch's Avatar
nitasch nitasch is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 254
Going on the assumption that EJ gave the baby to an adoptive couple as she claims with these questions.

Prior to missing the custody hearing in Dec, which resulted in custody given to the father, did EJ break any laws prior to the custody hearing by taking the baby to TX?

Even with the laws in TX being what they are, easier to give baby up without father's consent, even if she did adopt the baby out prior to the custody hearing, do you see anywhere in the TX laws that would have made this adoption legal? (I can't but just wanted an official answer)

Lastly, given the assumption that this was an illegal adoption, what legal consequences are there for the adoptive parents should the baby be located, (adoptive couple come forward)

TIA!

On edit, scratch the first question....I forgot about the first custody hearing on 12-17, they were given joint custody, so yes, she did break the law.

Last edited by nitasch; 02-10-2010 at 02:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to nitasch For This Useful Post:
  #14  
Old 02-10-2010, 03:28 PM
AZlawyer's Avatar
AZlawyer AZlawyer is offline
Verified Attorney
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: AZ
Posts: 5,942
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitasch View Post
Going on the assumption that EJ gave the baby to an adoptive couple as she claims with these questions.

Prior to missing the custody hearing in Dec, which resulted in custody given to the father, did EJ break any laws prior to the custody hearing by taking the baby to TX?

Even with the laws in TX being what they are, easier to give baby up without father's consent, even if she did adopt the baby out prior to the custody hearing, do you see anywhere in the TX laws that would have made this adoption legal? (I can't but just wanted an official answer)

Lastly, given the assumption that this was an illegal adoption, what legal consequences are there for the adoptive parents should the baby be located, (adoptive couple come forward)

TIA!

On edit, scratch the first question....I forgot about the first custody hearing on 12-17, they were given joint custody, so yes, she did break the law.
There is no way this adoption could have been legal in any state, what with the father being named on the birth certificate, his paternity having been confirmed in court 12-17 with EJ's agreement (this operates the same for legal purposes as a DNA test), his being awarded joint custody on 12-17, and his refusal to give up his parental rights. The laws that make it easier to adopt a baby without the father's consent concern fathers who are not on the birth certificate, have not been determined to be the biological father (by DNA or court order), don't have custody, haven't seen or attempted to see the child in a while, etc.

If the adoptive parents were tricked with false documents and haven't realized that they are holding a missing child, they might not face charges at all. If they participated in creating documents, they might face forgery charges. If they knew or eventually figured out that the adoption was "hinky," they might face custodial inferference or kidnapping charges.
__________________

"It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to AZlawyer For This Useful Post:
  #15  
Old 02-10-2010, 03:36 PM
nitasch's Avatar
nitasch nitasch is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZlawyer View Post
There is no way this adoption could have been legal in any state, what with the father being named on the birth certificate, his paternity having been confirmed in court 12-17 with EJ's agreement (this operates the same for legal purposes as a DNA test), his being awarded joint custody on 12-17, and his refusal to give up his parental rights. The laws that make it easier to adopt a baby without the father's consent concern fathers who are not on the birth certificate, have not been determined to be the biological father (by DNA or court order), don't have custody, haven't seen or attempted to see the child in a while, etc.

If the adoptive parents were tricked with false documents and haven't realized that they are holding a missing child, they might not face charges at all. If they participated in creating documents, they might face forgery charges. If they knew or eventually figured out that the adoption was "hinky," they might face custodial inferference or kidnapping charges.
Thank you, just one more question..... in the Dec 17 custody documents, it states that a new birth certificate must be ordered to show the fathers name on it. Meaning to me, that he was not listed on the original one.

In this case, it would not be a real stretch to assume that EJ supplied this adoption agency (or whatever they call themselves) with the original birth certificate and lied about the paternity of the baby.....so even though it was an illegal adoption, could you see a judge going lightly on the adoptive parents?

Again, thank you so much for your input, it is awesome to have you here!

Last edited by nitasch; 02-10-2010 at 03:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to nitasch For This Useful Post:
  #16  
Old 02-11-2010, 08:32 PM
AZlawyer's Avatar
AZlawyer AZlawyer is offline
Verified Attorney
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: AZ
Posts: 5,942
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitasch View Post
Thank you, just one more question..... in the Dec 17 custody documents, it states that a new birth certificate must be ordered to show the fathers name on it. Meaning to me, that he was not listed on the original one.

In this case, it would not be a real stretch to assume that EJ supplied this adoption agency (or whatever they call themselves) with the original birth certificate and lied about the paternity of the baby.....so even though it was an illegal adoption, could you see a judge going lightly on the adoptive parents?

Again, thank you so much for your input, it is awesome to have you here!
The court order clearly states that Logan WAS on the original birth certificate, and the family has confirmed that for us here on WS.

The part of the court order where it says IF the father is not on the birth certificate, a new one should be issued is just part of the blah blah blah court form for a finding of "yes" on paternity. The "real" part of the order is at the beginning, then the rest of the order is whatever the court wants to make sure doesn't get forgotten. It's very rare for any judge to go through and take out the stuff from the form that doesn't make sense under the particular circumstances. I guess the thought is, what can it hurt to have an unnecessary bit in here about "if the father is not on the birth certificate." If he isn't on the b.c., great, this will fix the problem; if he is, no big deal if we have a few extra sentences in the order that don't really apply.
__________________

"It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to AZlawyer For This Useful Post:
  #17  
Old 02-11-2010, 08:49 PM
BeanE BeanE is offline
Inactive
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,172
Hi AZ. I find it very odd that we haven't heard anything about a psych eval for Elizabeth.

Does her attorney have to file something for her to have one, or can it just be arranged without any motions etc?

If he does/did file something to request she be given a psych eval, or if the prosecutor filed something, would we know about it?

I'm still not clear on the public records laws in AZ.

Could anyone in San Antonio request a psych eval for her even though she hasn't been charged there?

Thanks, AZ!
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to BeanE For This Useful Post:
  #18  
Old 02-13-2010, 01:59 PM
AZlawyer's Avatar
AZlawyer AZlawyer is offline
Verified Attorney
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: AZ
Posts: 5,942
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
Hi AZ. I find it very odd that we haven't heard anything about a psych eval for Elizabeth.

Does her attorney have to file something for her to have one, or can it just be arranged without any motions etc?

If he does/did file something to request she be given a psych eval, or if the prosecutor filed something, would we know about it?

I'm still not clear on the public records laws in AZ.

Could anyone in San Antonio request a psych eval for her even though she hasn't been charged there?

Thanks, AZ!
It's very early in the case, so I don't find it odd that we haven't heard anything. Also, she hasn't been charged with murder (yet). If GJ's body is actually found in that landfill, I'm sure her lawyers will embark on a whole new strategy, likely involving questioning her mental health. (Although I suppose she would be charged in Texas and would have new lawyers there.) For now, EJ is charged with crimes consistent with hiding or giving up GJ for adoption. If that's what happened, it's unlikely that EJ's mental issues will be a focus of the case.

Yes, this sort of request would normally be initiated by the defense, and there would be a docket entry showing the request. There would be no way for any SA people to make such a request, as there have been no charges filed against EJ there.

If you go to this page:

http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.go...ases/Index.asp

you can either click "case history," enter EJ's name, and see the list of hearings and docket entries (things that were filed), or click "minute entries," enter the case no. (CR2010101760) and see the court's orders. But the "minute entries" site is slow to post things.

You can't see the actual documents filed online unless you are an attorney in the case.

Court instructions for obtaining copies of filed docs by phone:

To obtain copies of public records by phone, please call (602) 506-3360.

Please have the following information with your request:


The specific documents you want to receive;
The case number;
The names of the parties at the time the case was filed;
The filing date or year filed;
The number of pages of the document to be copied;
Your day-time phone number, if there are any questions.
(If you do not have the above information, it may be necessary to assess an $26.00 fee for each year to be researched and for each name researched.)

Also, you must have a debit card or a Visa or Mastercard or American Express.

A debit or credit card will be necessary to use as the method of payment for the service fee(s). Copying fees are $0.50 per page. In addition, there is an $26.00 charge to certify any document. If you are using the copy for legal or official purposes, a certified copy is usually required. There is a $7.00 shipping and handling fee.

Alternatively, you could contact media people who have commented on the contents of such documents and ask them if they will post the document on their web site.
__________________

"It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to AZlawyer For This Useful Post:
  #19  
Old 02-17-2010, 10:21 PM
BeanE BeanE is offline
Inactive
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,172
Hi AZ. We're trying to figure out why no Amber Alert was issued, and looking at when Eliz taking Gabe became kidnapping.

On Dec 20 in the morning, Logan's joint custody went into effect from the Dec 17 joint custody order.

On Dec 21, Logan got temporary full custody.

On Dec 28, Logan got permanent full custody.

Actually we were talking kidnapping, but custodial interference comes in there somewhere.

Can you clarify when either custodial interference or kidnapping came into play based on what type custody Logan had on the different dates?

Thanks!

Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to BeanE For This Useful Post:
  #20  
Old 02-19-2010, 05:20 PM
momtective's Avatar
momtective momtective is offline
Lifetime WS Non-Mod
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In my own reality...it's nicer here.
Posts: 12,021
So knowing that Elizabeth signed papers of some sort I'm guessing that this is what she signed http://www.texaslawyershelp.org/tyla...tachment.86703 an Affidavit of voluntary relinquishment of parental rights.

If this is what she signed then this document would be filed in the County in which it was signed...Bexar (pronounced Bear) County, provided it was filled out with the County name and not left blank, is this correct?

If it was left blank it could have been filed in any County in Texas if filled in and notarized after she signed it, is this correct?

If Elizabeth did sign an "Affidavit of voluntary relinquishment of parental rights" would the filing of such a document be a public record? If not, could LE access it?
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to momtective For This Useful Post:
  #21  
Old 02-19-2010, 05:58 PM
CathyinTexas CathyinTexas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 941
Quote:
Originally Posted by momtective View Post
So knowing that Elizabeth signed papers of some sort I'm guessing that this is what she signed http://www.texaslawyershelp.org/tyla...tachment.86703 an Affidavit of voluntary relinquishment of parental rights.

If this is what she signed then this document would be filed in the County in which it was signed...Bexar (pronounced Bear) County, provided it was filled out with the County name and not left blank, is this correct?

If it was left blank it could have been filed in any County in Texas if filled in and notarized after she signed it, is this correct?

If Elizabeth did sign an "Affidavit of voluntary relinquishment of parental rights" would the filing of such a document be a public record? If not, could LE access it?
And did she use the name Elizabeth Jones, ie, the fake id.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CathyinTexas For This Useful Post:
  #22  
Old 02-19-2010, 06:10 PM
AZlawyer's Avatar
AZlawyer AZlawyer is offline
Verified Attorney
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: AZ
Posts: 5,942
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
Hi AZ. We're trying to figure out why no Amber Alert was issued, and looking at when Eliz taking Gabe became kidnapping.

On Dec 20 in the morning, Logan's joint custody went into effect from the Dec 17 joint custody order.

On Dec 21, Logan got temporary full custody.

On Dec 28, Logan got permanent full custody.

Actually we were talking kidnapping, but custodial interference comes in there somewhere.

Can you clarify when either custodial interference or kidnapping came into play based on what type custody Logan had on the different dates?

Thanks!

Custodial interference--December 20 at whatever time Logan was supposed to get him.

Kidnapping--Because she's the mother, I believe that would come into play only after EJ made a threat of harm to Gabriel or stated that she had actually harmed him.
__________________

"It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to AZlawyer For This Useful Post:
  #23  
Old 02-19-2010, 06:16 PM
AZlawyer's Avatar
AZlawyer AZlawyer is offline
Verified Attorney
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: AZ
Posts: 5,942
Quote:
Originally Posted by momtective View Post
So knowing that Elizabeth signed papers of some sort I'm guessing that this is what she signed http://www.texaslawyershelp.org/tyla...tachment.86703 an Affidavit of voluntary relinquishment of parental rights.

If this is what she signed then this document would be filed in the County in which it was signed...Bexar (pronounced Bear) County, provided it was filled out with the County name and not left blank, is this correct?

If it was left blank it could have been filed in any County in Texas if filled in and notarized after she signed it, is this correct?

If Elizabeth did sign an "Affidavit of voluntary relinquishment of parental rights" would the filing of such a document be a public record? If not, could LE access it?
The link didn't work for me. An affidavit like that would be filed in court in order to get a final order of adoption. I would assume it could be filed in any county, regardless of what county she signed it in. I don't know if adoption court records are open in TX (probably not), but LE could certainly get them. Most likely, though, LE would need to know the name of the adoptive parents to find the right file.

It is kind of strange that anyone would have her sign legal documents for an illegal adoption.
__________________

"It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to AZlawyer For This Useful Post:
  #24  
Old 02-19-2010, 06:43 PM
momtective's Avatar
momtective momtective is offline
Lifetime WS Non-Mod
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In my own reality...it's nicer here.
Posts: 12,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZlawyer View Post
The link didn't work for me. An affidavit like that would be filed in court in order to get a final order of adoption. I would assume it could be filed in any county, regardless of what county she signed it in. I don't know if adoption court records are open in TX (probably not), but LE could certainly get them. Most likely, though, LE would need to know the name of the adoptive parents to find the right file.

It is kind of strange that anyone would have her sign legal documents for an illegal adoption.
Sorry, the link changed somehow in the post...let's try it again http://www.texaslawyershelp.org/tyla...tachment.86703

The thing I really think happened is that the adoptive couple may have known that the adoption was/is a "legal risk" but I doubt they thought it was an illegal adoption. I believe EJ had a Texas ID and probably claimed to be a Texas resident so if she went through an attorney of the adoptive parents choosing, the attorney wouldn't have had a clue.

They adoptive parents found their own birth mother (independent adoption) so no 3rd party such as an agency would be involved, just the birth mother, adoptive parents and an attorney to file the necessary paperwork.

Granted with Gabriel's story out there now, they surely know that it's an illegal adoption but what if they are just waiting it out knowing that nothing on the legal paperwork indicates EJ or Gabriel as EJ and Gabriel...kwim.

I really believe the adoption will be consummated in a Texas court within the next 4 months. It will be illegal yes but who will be the wiser? Only the adoptive parents and the attorney. Obviously the attorney doesn't value his law license very much if this is indeed what has happened with Gabriel.

Another thought...one of both of the adoptive parents just might be an attorney
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to momtective For This Useful Post:
  #25  
Old 02-21-2010, 02:36 PM
kappy50 kappy50 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Memphis
Posts: 1,286
Quote:
Originally Posted by momtective View Post
Sorry, the link changed somehow in the post...let's try it again http://www.texaslawyershelp.org/tyla...tachment.86703

The thing I really think happened is that the adoptive couple may have known that the adoption was/is a "legal risk" but I doubt they thought it was an illegal adoption. I believe EJ had a Texas ID and probably claimed to be a Texas resident so if she went through an attorney of the adoptive parents choosing, the attorney wouldn't have had a clue.

They adoptive parents found their own birth mother (independent adoption) so no 3rd party such as an agency would be involved, just the birth mother, adoptive parents and an attorney to file the necessary paperwork.

Granted with Gabriel's story out there now, they surely know that it's an illegal adoption but what if they are just waiting it out knowing that nothing on the legal paperwork indicates EJ or Gabriel as EJ and Gabriel...kwim.

I really believe the adoption will be consummated in a Texas court within the next 4 months. It will be illegal yes but who will be the wiser? Only the adoptive parents and the attorney. Obviously the attorney doesn't value his law license very much if this is indeed what has happened with Gabriel.

Another thought...one of both of the adoptive parents just might be an attorney
Mom..I was brainstorming here and was about to ask a question, but I think you shed some light on what I was going to ask....I was just trying to figure out where all these legal documents were coming from...be it TX or AZ. Since you can do so much on line these days, are those documents you can just download and proceed. Somewhere, surely, there has to be a true player in this.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to kappy50 For This Useful Post:
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Legal Questions daisy7 Byrd and Melanie Billings 45 01-01-2010 08:18 PM
Procedure and legal questions butwhatif? Caylee Anthony 2 years old 824 11-20-2009 07:04 PM
Post Legal Questions Here Littledeer Stacy Peterson 60 01-28-2008 09:29 AM


© Copyright Websleuths 1999-2012 New To Site? Need Help?
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:53 PM.

Advertisements

Pre-Order Imperfect Justice: Prosecuting Casey Anthony today!