TayJay/EJ Met in Nov 25 - Dec 8 Timeframe?

[captdj]

Originally Posted by BeanE

If we can nail down a list of what she needed to make this work by the 26th, it will help narrow down what we need to look at, and can also be sent to LE as a tip for places/things for them to look into.

e.g. if only a certain type of agency/service could have handled this, it narrows down a list of these places that LE can 'visit' and look at their records.

If she would have needed a fake death certificate for a father, they can check Tammi's computer forensics to see if she was 'researching' that, etc, and they can tap into their known people in SA and Tempe who deal with fake death certificates.

Bear with me - I'm brainstorming on my first cup of coffee.

Elizabeth may have been brainstorming also but it may have been on Dec 8th...

Or maybe she had contacted the San Antonio adoption group much early than even the 8th...

I'm been wondering if Tammi really met her in June accidently at an airport and Elizabeth just happened to call her Dec 8th and she happen to drop everything and run over and get Gabriel or was she part of the original plan from some agency much earlier like in June when they met and the Smiths got bumped ..... Elizabeth's statement that she didnt want to know where the Smiths lived sounded like an odd statement to make....

I had no proof but everything fit into place too nicely ....
First for the Smith's to be on "go" to take Gabriel like the next day.....
Secondly then just 5 days after arriving in San Antonio EJ has someone to hand Gabriel over to... and this was during the xmas holidays

Again JMO....but just having 3 extra cell phones that Logan found in the trailer bothers me....

[BeanE]

Originally Posted by captdj

Elizabeth may have been brainstorming also but it may have been on Dec 8th...

Or maybe she had contacted the San Antonio adoption group much early than even the 8th...

I'm been wondering if Tammi really met her in June accidently at an airport and Elizabeth just happened to call her Dec 8th and she happen to drop everything and run over and get Gabriel or was she part of the original plan from some agency much earlier like in June when they met and the Smiths got bumped ..... Elizabeth's statement that she didnt want to know where the Smiths lived sounded like an odd statement to make....

I had no proof but everything fit into place too nicely ....
First for the Smith's to be on "go" to take Gabriel like the next day.....
Secondly then just 5 days after arriving in San Antonio EJ has someone to hand Gabriel over to... and this was during the xmas holidays

Again JMO....but just having 3 extra cell phones that Logan found in the trailer bothers me....

Great points, capt. Consider this too - in Elizabeth's charging document it refers to the Smiths as people she knew for less than 2 weeks. I've been wondering if LE knows something we don't about exactly when and how EJ and the Smiths connected.

The context is about leaving her baby with somebody she knew less than 2 weeks. She left Gabe with them on Dec 9, which would put meeting them in late Nov.

Remember the very early reports when the Smiths said they had Gabe in late Nov? I'm wondering if maybe that's when they connected.

[DairyGirl]

Originally Posted by BeanE

Great points, capt. Consider this too - in Elizabeth's charging document it refers to the Smiths as people she knew for less than 2 weeks. I've been wondering if LE knows something we don't about exactly when and how EJ and the Smiths connected.

The context is about leaving her baby with somebody she knew less than 2 weeks. She left Gabe with them on Dec 9, which would put meeting them in late Nov.

Remember the very early reports when the Smiths said they had Gabe in late Nov? I'm wondering if maybe that's when they connected.

I think you are on to something. If the Smiths just met EJ right before she gave them Gabriel, which I have always believed was the case, then I would guess she hooked up with them through the internet. I tend to think she hooked up with them right before she gave them Gabriel. I think that however she met the Smiths is the same way she met whoever took Gabriel from her in San Antonio. She may have been stalking adoption sites of some kind. When it didn't work out with the Smiths she went right back where she had been before and found someone else who was willing to take Gabriel even without LM's permission. I know when I was looking to adopt I didn't care about the fathers permission. I don't think it was in anyway legal. The adoptive parents probably figured that all they needed to do was get a new birth certificate for the baby and they were good to go. And as we have seen, getting false documents is fairly easy on the internet. I don't think that the Smiths were in the loop as far as San Antonio goes. They had no intention of helping EJ find any other parents for Gabriel other then themselves.

[BeanE]

Originally Posted by DairyGirl

I think you are on to something. If the Smiths just met EJ right before she gave them Gabriel, which I have always believed was the case, then I would guess she hooked up with them through the internet. I tend to think she hooked up with them right before she gave them Gabriel. I think that however she met the Smiths is the same way she met whoever took Gabriel from her in San Antonio. She may have been stalking adoption sites of some kind. When it didn't work out with the Smiths she went right back where she had been before and found someone else who was willing to take Gabriel even without LM's permission. I know when I was looking to adopt I didn't care about the fathers permission. I don't think it was in anyway legal. The adoptive parents probably figured that all they needed to do was get a new birth certificate for the baby and they were good to go. And as we have seen, getting false documents is fairly easy on the internet. I don't think that the Smiths were in the loop as far as San Antonio goes. They had no intention of helping EJ find any other parents for Gabriel other then themselves.

I like that. You know, her grandfather said on Thanksgiving the whole family was together and Elizabeth seemed very happy. I wonder if something happened that weekend, and argument or something, that might have prompted her to start cruising the internet.

The other thing to keep in mind is that EJ and the Smiths were living in the same basic area, so might have connected somehow right in the community.

I wonder what we could find if we focused in on that specific timeframe - Nov 25 through Dec 8.

[DairyGirl]

Originally Posted by BeanE

I like that. You know, her grandfather said on Thanksgiving the whole family was together and Elizabeth seemed very happy. I wonder if something happened that weekend, and argument or something, that might have prompted her to start cruising the internet.

The other thing to keep in mind is that EJ and the Smiths were living in the same basic area, so might have connected somehow right in the community.

I wonder what we could find if we focused in on that specific timeframe - Nov 25 through Dec 8.

I wonder if EJ might have placed some kind of ad on Craigslist, maybe in the community section, looking for someone to take the baby? I wish they had the laptop. We know that EJ liked to use Craigslist and her grandfather even said something to the effect that she could go on Craigslist and do anything. The ad probably was deleted soon afterwards so couldn't be searched.

[Ives]

Originally Posted by BeanE

I like that. You know, her grandfather said on Thanksgiving the whole family was together and Elizabeth seemed very happy. I wonder if something happened that weekend, and argument or something, that might have prompted her to start cruising the internet.

The other thing to keep in mind is that EJ and the Smiths were living in the same basic area, so might have connected somehow right in the community.

I wonder what we could find if we focused in on that specific timeframe - Nov 25 through Dec 8.

Oh wise BeanE!! we know TS was hot on the trail for a serrogate!!
http://www.surrogatemother.com/profi...8v7qqjm&page=1
and what is insems?? new language I must learn!!
her comments are on the 25th of Nov.

[BeanE]

Originally Posted by DairyGirl

I wonder if EJ might have placed some kind of ad on Craigslist, maybe in the community section, looking for someone to take the baby? I wish they had the laptop. We know that EJ liked to use Craigslist and her grandfather even said something to the effect that she could go on Craigslist and do anything. The ad probably was deleted soon afterwards so couldn't be searched.

lol. I was just thinking I'd give anything for that laptop and some good forensics on it. We're always working blind on this case. I'm spoiled rotten by the Sunshine Laws in Caylee's case.

There are websites out there that replicate Craigslist ads. I think that's how a couple of her other Craigslist ads were found. In the Sleuthers and Tips Needed thread I listed some other websites that are like Craigslist. We can search through them too.

[BeanE]

Originally Posted by Ives

Oh wise BeanE!! we know TS was hot on the trail for a serrogate!!
http://www.surrogatemother.com/profi...8v7qqjm&page=1
and what is insems?? new language I must learn!!
her comments are on the 25th of Nov.

Insemination. Jack's sperm + surrogate = baby.

Now I'm going to have nightmares about turkey basters tonight.

[DairyGirl]

Originally Posted by Ives

Oh wise BeanE!! we know TS was hot on the trail for a serrogate!!
http://www.surrogatemother.com/profi...8v7qqjm&page=1
and what is insems?? new language I must learn!!
her comments are on the 25th of Nov.

Insems mean that someone was artificially inseminated. Doesn't seem to have worked or she wasn't telling the truth. BTW, the posts she made were in 2008, not 2009.

[Ives]

Interesting!!
Insems - The IP's will need a sterile collection cup and the surrogate will need a medicine syringe and a comfortable, relaxing area
I think you can start to get the idea, LOL. more at link
http://www.allaboutsurrogacy.com/tra...urrogacy2.html
so according to TS, they had just done an Insem, this around the 25th. <--edit because I am way off, LOL

[Ives]

Originally Posted by DairyGirl

Insems mean that someone was artificially inseminated. Doesn't seem to have worked or she wasn't telling the truth. BTW, the posts she made were in 2008, not 2009.

Oops, I keep forgeting what year I'm in...I feel a bit like Homer... OK, off to look more. this time check dates!

[BeanE]

Originally Posted by Ives

Interesting!!
Insems - The IP's will need a sterile collection cup and the surrogate will need a medicine syringe and a comfortable, relaxing area
I think you can start to get the idea, LOL. more at link
http://www.allaboutsurrogacy.com/tra...urrogacy2.html
so according to TS, they had just done an Insem, this around the 25th. <---I do not think that is enough time from this point, until she got Gabe to find out about a preg? I could be wrong. and what about the Downs baby? why would she be talking about adopting, if they were doing this Insem? and WHO is the serrogate??
more Questions, don't you love me?

Well, the important thing is, that Eliz could have answered that ad and said hey! you don't need a surrogate! I already have a beautiful healthy baby boy you can have!

[captdj]

[quote=BeanE;4815669]Great points, capt. Consider this too - in Elizabeth's charging document it refers to the Smiths as people she knew for less than 2 weeks. I've been wondering if LE knows something we don't about exactly when and how EJ and the Smiths connected.

The context is about leaving her baby with somebody she knew less than 2 weeks. She left Gabe with them on Dec 9, which would put meeting them in late Nov.

Remember the very early reports when the Smiths said they had Gabe in late Nov? I'm wondering if maybe that's when they connected.[/QUOTE/]


The fact that TS & EJ's meeting was at the airport and can be possibly verified by cell records or videos...... isn't it risky to lie about that..... if it didn't happen...
why say airport if not true and why not say a park....

But if EJ contacted TS sometime in Nov and then arrangements made for Gabriel to Join the Smiths makes sense than just a call out of the blue and Tammi running over and picking up Gabriel...

Has Logan said who initiated the fight Dec. 8th between Logan and Elizabeth?

[Ives]

Originally Posted by BeanE

Well, the important thing is, that Eliz could have answered that ad and said hey! you don't need a surrogate! I already have a beautiful healthy baby boy you can have!

or an ad like it! I wish I knew EJ's "internet alias"! do we know who's name she has? is Johnson her mothers or fathers name? do we know the other parents last name? if so, maybe a search with Elizabeth insert last name here, may turn something up? (I actually use my step-dads last name online, because I do not want people from my past tracking me down)

[BeanE]

This thread is to sleuth the Nov 25 to Dec 8 timeframe to see if this may be when EJ met the Smiths and how they may have met, with an eye to Elizabeth having possibly contacted this same connection to find someone else to give Gabe to.

ETA: I screwed up the thread creation and post move :-) This post was supposed to end up as the first in the thread and I have no idea how to get it up there lol.

[BeanE]

Originally Posted by captdj

The fact that TS & EJ's meeting was at the airport and can be possibly verified by cell records or videos...... isn't it risky to lie about that..... if it didn't happen...
why say airport if not true and why not say a park....

But if EJ contacted TS sometime in Nov and then arrangements made for Gabriel to Join the Smiths makes sense than just a call out of the blue and Tammi running over and picking up Gabriel...

Has Logan said who initiated the fight Dec. 8th between Logan and Elizabeth?

Well maybe they did initially meet at the airport, but it just seems strange that there would be no contact at all until Dec 8 and bam! Tammi and Jack drop everything to take Gabe with no notice.

And it's especially odd that they kept saying November in those early interviews. Why were they saying November? Surely they remembered that it was the 2nd week in December they got Gabe.

I can't remember it ever being said how the argument on Dec 8 got started.

[DairyGirl]

I believe that EJ placed her ad looking for a free nanny on Craigslist on Dec. 8th. I have the link but it's expired In the ad she stated that she has no family to help with her 7 month old son. I wonder if TPS was on Craigslist, maybe looking for her own nanny and came across her ad and had enough gall to call her and offer to help?

[BeanE]

Originally Posted by DairyGirl

I believe that EJ placed her ad looking for a free nanny on Craigslist on Dec. 8th. I have the link but it's expired In the ad she stated that she has no family to help with her 7 month old son. I wonder if TPS was on Craigslist, maybe looking for her own nanny and came across her ad and had enough gall to call her and offer to help?

Momtective has those ads documented in a post, and then a few posts down from that, AZlawyer was able to provide confirmation of that they are Elizabeth's ads.

Because AZlawyer provided that confirmation, Tricia approved them for us to post by linking back to those posts as source links.

We need to get links to those 2 posts into the Important Links sticky thread so we can reference them easily. I'll dig them up tomorrow. Too sleepy right now. :-)

I don't know if Tammi would answer a nanny ad. Did she babysit? I would think her business kept her pretty busy.

[DairyGirl]

Originally Posted by BeanE

Momtective has those ads documented in a post, and then a few posts down from that, AZlawyer was able to provide confirmation of that they are Elizabeth's ads.

Because AZlawyer provided that confirmation, Tricia approved them for us to post by linking back to those posts as source links.

We need to get links to those 2 posts into the Important Links sticky thread so we can reference them easily. I'll dig them up tomorrow. Too sleepy right now. :-)

I don't know if Tammi would answer a nanny ad. Did she babysit? I would think her business kept her pretty busy.

I don't think she was looking to baby sit. She may have been trolling the internet looking for some poor girl who wanted to give a baby up for adoption and looking into every lead. Seeing someone who advertised herself as a single mother with no family to help her may have prompted her to respond, offering her own "help". Just throwing out ideas here.

[Prof]

Lol Dairygirl I have thrown that idea out there with the same result--

I have one TS FB' postings in this timeframe --if I had known I would have paid more attention to these dates when I was getting screen shots lol
I was making a FB timeline around the time that EJ and TS were supposed to have met at the airport -- I have that covered :P

Anyway here is a paraphrase of a post I do have in the timeframe

On December 3 she posted in reply to a friend that they were adopting a Down Syndrome baby who had not been born yet, but he was due any day and they were going to pick him up from the hospital; Jack had already named him JD
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=...5061919&ref=nf

(it was a different name but same initials as Jack, I noted)

[captdj]

Tammi and EJ met when Elizabeth went to Boston to visit her grandmother in June ?? Correct?
Im still not convinced this was accidental....
We should start by looking at Elizabeths contact while there....maybe check her granny's computer, phone, etc....

[DaneBramage]

I'm still leaning in the direction that the airport incident never happened. I think TPS was trolling the net for babies and stumbled across the CL posting. TPS is very net savvy.

[kissdegirl]

Originally Posted by DairyGirl

I believe that EJ placed her ad looking for a free nanny on Craigslist on Dec. 8th. I have the link but it's expired In the ad she stated that she has no family to help with her 7 month old son. I wonder if TPS was on Craigslist, maybe looking for her own nanny and came across her ad and had enough gall to call her and offer to help?

I think that's exactly right. On TS fb, back in April 09, someone asks her about needing an Au Pair, and TS was needing to start looking for a live-in nanny for H this year...she could have searched live-in nanny and come right across EJ's post.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=...5061919&ref=ts

[pittsburghgirl]

Originally Posted by DairyGirl

I think you are on to something. If the Smiths just met EJ right before she gave them Gabriel, which I have always believed was the case, then I would guess she hooked up with them through the internet. I tend to think she hooked up with them right before she gave them Gabriel. I think that however she met the Smiths is the same way she met whoever took Gabriel from her in San Antonio. She may have been stalking adoption sites of some kind. When it didn't work out with the Smiths she went right back where she had been before and found someone else who was willing to take Gabriel even without LM's permission. I know when I was looking to adopt I didn't care about the fathers permission. I don't think it was in anyway legal. The adoptive parents probably figured that all they needed to do was get a new birth certificate for the baby and they were good to go. And as we have seen, getting false documents is fairly easy on the internet. I don't think that the Smiths were in the loop as far as San Antonio goes. They had no intention of helping EJ find any other parents for Gabriel other then themselves.

I've wondered if it was possible that the Smiths could be involved in stashing Gabriel somewhere, in the hope that when things died down, they could get him "back." I can't see TS giving up something she wants without a big fight.

[artsy1]

Originally Posted by Prof

Lol Dairygirl I have thrown that idea out there with the same result--

I have one TS FB' postings in this timeframe --if I had known I would have paid more attention to these dates when I was getting screen shots lol
I was making a FB timeline around the time that EJ and TS were supposed to have met at the airport -- I have that covered :P

Anyway here is a paraphrase of a post I do have in the timeframe

On December 3 she posted in reply to a friend that they were adopting a Down Syndrome baby who had not been born yet, but he was due any day and they were going to pick him up from the hospital; Jack had already named him JD
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=...5061919&ref=nf

(it was a different name but same initials as Jack, I noted)

Hmm, I forgot about the Down Syndrome baby. Which leaves me yet ANOTHER question about TPS to ask. If on Dec 3 the baby was to be born any day and they were going to pick him up at the hospital, they why on God's Green Earth would TPS and JS get themselves so publically involved in Gabriel's case in the media? Shouldn't they be at home taking care of this baby they were supposedly adopting? Did LE find a Down Syndrome baby at the house when they arrested TPS? Or could TPS just have been setting the scene on facebook that she was going to have a baby in the house, and that she had an excuse for not posting photos by claiming it was a Down baby who couldn't handle the flash from a camera? And then posting pics of Gabriel on her fb and claiming it was her new addition? Can TPS ever get at least ONE story straight?