The garrote points to........

madeleine · #1 02-23-2010, 05:21 AM

The main reason I think BDI is the garrote.It's like a pain in my #$%.....it just doesn't fit any of my PDI/JDI theories and it drives me nuts!

Some say that PR or JR applied it as part of the staging not knowing that she was still alive.I really can't buy this.....this is a bit too much.

The autopsy report says clear that either of the two (headbash,strangulation) could have caused her death so IMO this means she WAS strangled,the cord wasn't just gently applied only to make it look like something it was not.Someone PULLED that cord.

I also really can't believe that PR would have used her OWN brush to manufacture the garrote......it's just SICK,I don't see JR doing it either.Why use it anyway?WHy not use a simple cord???

The only explanation I can come up with is that it WAS a game gone wrong,just not a sex game like Wecht said but a little boy wanting to mock,intimidate,over power or dominate his little sister.Maybe that's also how the head bash happened.

And yep,the REST is staging,parents wanting to cover it up.

BUT something's wrong with this theory as well.......why didn't they get rid of the garrote if so?

Pls help me out with this cause I really can't buy the "they didn't know she was still alive and applied the garrote" theory.It doesn't make sense.It's cruel and not probable and way too complicated.I am repeating myself,why not use a simple cord,why take time to manufacture a garrote AND using PR's brush?You just can't do that as a parent,especially if the death was an accident.

all imo

DeeDee249 · #2 02-23-2010, 10:25 PM

If BDI- then he wasn't alone. He had to have been with someone older, and my bet is on JAR. BR alone couldn't have done it, IMHO. He seems just too immature, and not just his small size. I think even if he bashed her hard enough to put that hole in her skull, he wouldn't think to make a garrote using his mother's paint brush to strangle her just to stage it. If this was a sex game- not something a kid that age would do without some influence from an older male. I don't think he knew about the blanket in the basement dryer. And if he had bashed her (to shut her up when she screamed), I think he would have left her where she fell. If he was involved (and I think of this too, sometimes) he was not alone. I do think that would be certainly a reason why both parents would go to the extent they did to cover up this death. And it explains why BOTH parents would do it. Patsy, for BR, JR for his son JAR. I can't see Patsy doing it for her stepson alone. So that's where BR fits in for me.

madeleine · #3 02-24-2010, 02:44 AM

What if he wasn't alone indeed.Where the other kids ever questionned?I am really trying to find a reason why the Stines and the Fernies behaved like they did and can't.I don't think they would lie or cover up for PR or JR.imo

Who (except the Ramsey's) saw JB alive last?

We don't even know if she was alive when they arrived home.

Sometimes I think that the reason they said she was sound asleep is that they were afraid someone saw them carrying JB from the car to the house and might ask questions.

No one can say whether she was alive or not when they entered their home.
What if something happened in the car?
FGS it's weird that none of them can remember exactly who took the gifts where and who got out of the car and who not.The friends testimonies would really help here.

SuperDave · #4 02-24-2010, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madeleine

The main reason I think BDI is the garrote.It's like a pain in my #$%.....it just doesn't fit any of my PDI/JDI theories and it drives me nuts!

Some say that PR or JR applied it as part of the staging not knowing that she was still alive.I really can't buy this.....this is a bit too much.

The autopsy report says clear that either of the two (headbash,strangulation) could have caused her death so IMO this means she WAS strangled,the cord wasn't just gently applied only to make it look like something it was not.Someone PULLED that cord.

I also really can't believe that PR would have used her OWN brush to manufacture the garrote......it's just SICK,I don't see JR doing it either.Why use it anyway?WHy not use a simple cord???

The only explanation I can come up with is that it WAS a game gone wrong,just not a sex game like Wecht said but a little boy wanting to mock,intimidate,over power or dominate his little sister.Maybe that's also how the head bash happened.

And yep,the REST is staging,parents wanting to cover it up.

BUT something's wrong with this theory as well.......why didn't they get rid of the garrote if so?

Pls help me out with this cause I really can't buy the "they didn't know she was still alive and applied the garrote" theory.It doesn't make sense.It's cruel and not probable and way too complicated.I am repeating myself,why not use a simple cord,why take time to manufacture a garrote AND using PR's brush?You just can't do that as a parent,especially if the death was an accident.

all imo

madeleine, you know I've got nothing but love for you. But I can't stand by this.

believe09 · #5 02-24-2010, 06:31 PM

Why do we have two threads on the garotte??

Ravyn · #6 02-24-2010, 10:58 PM

Maybe,but Burke said she walked in that night...And would they think of sitting out the pineapple if she ate any at the places they visited...And why send him away,wouldn't they want to keep him close to make sure he didn't say anything to anybody...

Tadpole12 · #7 02-24-2010, 11:47 PM

Hey y'all ...

Has a poster ever recreated the garotte?

madeleine · #8 02-25-2010, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tadpole12

Hey y'all ...

Has a poster ever recreated the garotte?

Yep.because the cord ended up being too long (same lenght as the original) it was kinda hard to pull without holding down the doll with my knee(used an old doll in the reconstruction)

madeleine · #9 02-25-2010, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperDave

madeleine, you know I've got nothing but love for you. But I can't stand by this.

I know

Hey....I will probably never know which R did what(they made sure it happens like this,didn't they) so I guess I am trying to find the more simple explanation right now.I also find it kinda hard to believe (I know,it's not impossible) that a wife would stand by her man if he's a molester and responsible for such a crime or that a man (who sometimes really sounds sincere when saying he loved JB) would cover for a psycho wife.

Let's say one of these scenarios is true.....you would think that one would protect the remaining child from the other,right?

That's why it all makes sense if they did it for Burke.
This doesn't mean it's so,just looking at this possibility now.

madeleine · #10 02-25-2010, 02:55 AM

Why was AH's priority nr 1 to clear BR?

madeleine · #11 02-25-2010, 03:12 AM

For Tad:

(re no marks on her back)Yep,that's why I thought that maybe she was dragged.

and it was used like a leesh or something.

Tadpole12 · #12 02-25-2010, 12:00 PM

Hi madeleine.

ty.

I had been reading about antemortem marks always being red in color.
I wondered about tension and resistance and if the paint brush handle could have been the object that made those marks.
But if, as SD suggests, only one tug and the noose part would hold tension, then the handle does serve no purpose, unless the rope was wrapped more than once around JBR's neck?

The handle being, visual rather than functional.

SuperDave · #13 02-25-2010, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tadpole12

Hey y'all ...

Has a poster ever recreated the garotte?

This one has.

SuperDave · #14 02-25-2010, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madeleine

Yep.because the cord ended up being too long (same lenght as the original) it was kinda hard to pull without holding down the doll with my knee(used an old doll in the reconstruction)

Yeah, that's how it ended up with me, too.

SuperDave · #15 02-25-2010, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tadpole12

Hi madeleine.

ty.

I had been reading about antemortem marks always being red in color.
I wondered about tension and resistance and if the paint brush handle could have been the object that made those marks.
But if, as SD suggests, only one tug and the noose part would hold tension, then the handle does serve no purpose, unless the rope was wrapped more than once around JBR's neck?

The handle being, visual rather than functional.

Becky319 · #16 02-26-2010, 07:35 AM

I can't help but wonder if it was hard for a grown up (Madeline and SD) to pull would there be any way Burke could have pulled it? He was still young and short when this happened.

madeleine · #17 02-26-2010, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Becky319

I can't help but wonder if it was hard for a grown up (Madeline and SD) to pull would there be any way Burke could have pulled it? He was still young and short when this happened.

Depends I guess.I was thinking that maybe it was a game gone wrong,like let's play walk the dog or something>>>accident,he pulled too hard or maybe she resisted at some point.IF BDI then the garrote was just a toy,wasn't manufactured in order to kill(could explain the lenght and why it doesn't fit ).moo

Becky319 · #18 02-26-2010, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madeleine

Depends I guess.I was thinking that maybe it was a game gone wrong,like let's play walk the dog or something>>>accident,he pulled too hard or maybe she resisted at some point.IF BDI then the garrote was just a toy,wasn't manufactured in order to kill(could explain the lenght and why it doesn't fit ).moo

Excellent thought Madeleine. That is what makes this the most interesting case of all, there are so many different ways it could have gone. I can see her waking Burke up and saying I wet the bed again, he says come on lets get you changed and we will go get some pineapple and them play some games ok. When you think on it for a long time you start seeing flaws, but I see flaws in every other scenerio too. I wish we could know what really happened, in my heart I want it not to be as awful for JB as my mind says it must have been.

KariKae · #19 02-26-2010, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Becky319

Excellent thought Madeleine. That is what makes this the most interesting case of all, there are so many different ways it could have gone. I can see her waking Burke up and saying I wet the bed again, he says come on lets get you changed and we will go get some pineapple and them play some games ok. When you think on it for a long time you start seeing flaws, but I see flaws in every other scenerio too. I wish we could know what really happened, in my heart I want it not to be as awful for JB as my mind says it must have been.

I could see Burke doing this if he knew Patsy would go psycho on JonBenet for wetting the bed. Being the protective big brother, you know?

For every horrible ACCIDENT scenario I come up with, I can't think of a reason not to call 911, even if Burke did it (especially if Burke did it). If the head bash happened first, surely the family would check for breathing or a pulse, right?

In my mind, the only two scenarios that "fit" are...
1) Someone flew into a rage and she died. Even if they knew she was alive, she could tell what happened. John and Patsy's perfect life would be over.
2) IDI

DeeDee249 · #20 02-26-2010, 09:32 PM

She had to be alive when they got home. The position of the pineapple in her digestive tract as well as the state of rigor mortis put a TOD between 12 midnight and 1 am. Since the Rs, who after all, KNOW- they put Dec. 25th rather than 26th on her tombstone, I'd go with around midnight.
As far as BR playing around with a ligature around his sister's neck- I can't make this fit UNLESS they snuck to the basement to do it. Parents would never allow a child to put anything around another child's neck, even the Rs.
Christmas night...everyone's tired. The brush was broken in the basement- shards were found around the paint tote. Then there is the scream and head bash- possibly in response to the scream. I feel it was. And I feel that also happened in the basement. I don't think the kids went to the basement to play. IF the entire thing happened in the basement, then the crime was sinister from start to finish, and not an evil coverup to an accidental skull fracture. Because that would mean she was bought to the basement alive, and whatever happened down there resulted in her being bashed, molested, strangled. Not necessarily in that order. And I don't think BR alone could have done all that.

madeleine · #21 02-28-2010, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KariKae

For every horrible ACCIDENT scenario I come up with, I can't think of a reason not to call 911, even if Burke did it (especially if Burke did it).

If she was already dead maybe they thought of protecting him.Not from a charge,he was too young,but protect his future,his reputation.We know he hit his sister in the face with a baseball bat before,who knows what other problems he had.His reactions right after her death are weird IMO,a 9 year old saying something like "well,I have to move on?"He was coached pretty well for all those interviews IMo and maybe THIS was the reason he was sent to a shrink,nothing to do with emotional distress.(I'ver seen nothing but lack OF)

SunnieRN · #22 02-28-2010, 04:33 PM

Wow, just wow!!

passionflower · #23 02-28-2010, 05:50 PM

Burke sure has been 'hidden' from public all these years.
IMO, I always thought it started with 2 tired kids eating pineapple,
goofing around, hit with the flashlight and parents went into a panic.
Thought she was dead or would never be right again and staged the whole
thing to protect Burke. JMOO

DeeDee249 · #24 02-28-2010, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by passionflower

Burke sure has been 'hidden' from public all these years.
IMO, I always thought it started with 2 tired kids eating pineapple,
goofing around, hit with the flashlight and parents went into a panic.
Thought she was dead or would never be right again and staged the whole
thing to protect Burke. JMOO

Of course this is possible. But to stage an accidental death like that, with garrote, paintbrush penetration, all that was done to JB just to protect her 9-year old brother from, what...embarrassment? I just can't see it.
Now, if there was more involved- sexual molestation, something to hide that involved the brother(s) that might result in more serious consequences - then the staging is more likely.

BOESP · #25 02-28-2010, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeeDee249

Of course this is possible. But to stage an accidental death like that, with garrote, paintbrush penetration, all that was done to JB just to protect her 9-year old brother from, what...embarrassment? I just can't see it.
Now, if there was more involved- sexual molestation, something to hide that involved the brother(s) that might result in more serious consequences - then the staging is more likely.

DeeDee, you know I respect your opinions here, but I still don't understand the parts about paintbrush penetration. The birefringent material mentioned in the autopsy has not been connected to the paintbrush has it (or have I forgotten)? What is the reference that shows the paintbrush being used as an instrument of penetration? Thanks!