TX TX - Missing Fort Worth Three, 1974 - #2

Cubby · #1 03-17-2010, 04:35 AM

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Missing Fort Worth Three- Must Read - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

michiganlifer · #2 03-17-2010, 05:53 AM

Does anyone know if enforcement officers from the police department ever check this web?

Cubby · #3 03-17-2010, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michiganlifer

Does anyone know if enforcement officers from the police department ever check this web?

I'm sure they do from time to time. In fact, I know they do. However I don't know that they identify themselves as members, or just read as guests.

Do you have a particular reason for asking?

michiganlifer · #4 03-17-2010, 08:23 AM

No, no. No reason. Just wondering if anything that other posts have said fits in with what the police know and haven't released yet. Like the 3 savings bonds. That was never released before AMW had it on it's website. That's all.

Cubby · #5 03-17-2010, 01:15 PM

I really haven't followed this case so I am not familiar with the 3 savings bonds.

Sometimes one active member within a thread/case will make contact with LE. Sometimes LE is willing to share more info and are receptive to working with WS'rs like ourselves, other times they are not and it takes a few calls to even confirm a tip was received.

Someone did make contact with LE on the last page or second to the last page on the last thread. Perhaps that member might be willing to make contact regarding some questions. Just go ahead and post them. It is best to try and have one WS member making contact with LE than a handful- because then that annoys them an they are less willing to work with us.

hth

michiganlifer · #6 03-17-2010, 03:14 PM

I saw that someone already contacted LE on one of the last threads. I wouldn't do that myself because I don't know a lot about the case. I'm just curious on how three people (2 children) can disappear at once and never have a trace of them since.

dashamarie · #7 03-18-2010, 12:16 PM

Regarding the photos that were posted of a girl that looked like/could be Rachel, the description of Rachel says she has a small scar on her chin. Can anyone see a scar on the unknown girl's chin? I cannot see it in the known photo of Rachel, but I am not sure where it would be.

s_v_c · #8 03-19-2010, 03:29 PM

I wonder what else LE has held back about this case... It would also be interesting to know what kind of tips/possible sightings they received and the general locations. I don't think I've ever read anywhere of ANY possible sightings (other than at the mall at the time of the disappearance), which seems strange because I thought with most cases, they normally do get tips, whether or not they're accurate.

I don't think I see a scar on the unknown girl's chin, but then again, I don't think it's really noticeable in the smaller black-and-white picture we have of Rachel either. And the light is also hitting the chin of the unknown girl rather strangely, which doesn't help. It's too bad we don't have any other photos of Rachel, Renee and Julie than the standard file ones... it's hard to get an accurate read on how someone looks based on one picture.

dashamarie · #9 03-25-2010, 10:11 AM

Like any other case, they probably had hundreds of "sightings" and "tips" right around the time of the disappearance. LE wouldn't release the info until it checked out, and I would bet 99% of it didn't check out.

Also, if I remember correctly, Rachel's brother claims that there have been sightings of Rachel over the years in the Ft. Worth area, always around Christmas time. And some of the sightings were supposed to have been by people who knew Rachel, (i.e., credible sources).

Anyway, at this point LE may not be a great source. The case is over 35 years old... How many people are still around in FW LE that have intimate knowledge of the case? And, as we know, second-hand knowledge is never as good. No one who was not there can have that "a-ha" moment of, "now that I think about it there was a..."

s_v_c · #10 03-25-2010, 10:59 AM

Good point! I'd forgotten about Rachel's brother's theories. I'm not sure how reliable he is either though.... He was so young when she disappeared and it's obvious he's gone his own way regarding his opinions on this case from the rest of the family members. I definitely admire his persistence though!

You're right, dashamarie, I bet most of the people in the Fort Worth police who dealt with this case are long gone... and as mentioned previously, a lot of the interviews with witnesses, etc. were done long after the disappearance, so the information they gave isn't nearly as credible as it would have been sooner, just because memories can change.

I wonder if we could get Rusty to come to this thread and discuss the case with us... Accurate or not, I'd love to hear what he thinks now.

michiganlifer · #11 03-27-2010, 03:11 PM

Does anyone know what made Rusty change his mind about his sister Debra? In his missing trio website, he says the two of them discussed the case long into the night guessing what might have happened. Sometime later he obviously changed his mind about his sister. What happened?

justthinkin · #12 03-29-2010, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michiganlifer

Does anyone know what made Rusty change his mind about his sister Debra? In his missing trio website, he says the two of them discussed the case long into the night guessing what might have happened. Sometime later he obviously changed his mind about his sister. What happened?

I believe what caused Rusty to change his mind was Princess Rose and I digging up stuff on a serial killer that used to live in Ft. Worth, Mike Debardeleben. His parents lived not far from the shopping center, and he may have been responsible for some earlier disappearances in Ft. Worth. He moved away, but he came back to Ft. Worth shortly before his mother died.to supposedly care for her. More likely is he hurried her death along through neglect. This would've been the right time frame 1974 give or take a year. Debardelben's whereabouts went unaccounted for for several years, but he can be placed in Ft. Worth approximately around the time the Fort Worth girls disappeared. This guy was known to kidnap and torture some of his victims, and held at least one woman captive in his attic in Ft. Worth. He married at least 4 women, and battered two of them so much that they helped him commit his crimes. Another only stayed with him about a month or so before divorcing him.

Also, Rusty later spoke with a male poster on WS, someone who was working on the theory that the Lyons girls in Maryland, think that's the right state, may also have been abducted by Debardeleben as he was in their area as well. Actually PrincessRose and I picked up on Debardeleben from the Lyons girls' case. Debardeleben had known victims in Virgina too. As far as criminals go, Debardeleben started early, and was not limited by the types of crimes he committed. He was eventually caught, but not for his sexual crimes. He was caught printing phony money by the Feds. which he'd passed in numerous states. When they opened up a storage building where he had his printing press, is when they found out he was also a serial killer, and a sexual sadist at that. They found lots of photos of women. Truly disgusting guy, and one of the worst. Everyone knows of Ted Bundy, but really Debardeleben was much worse.

The male poster here who spoke with Rusty was finally able to convince Rusty that his sister had nothing to do with this crime. This crime truly shredded their family, and if Rusty and Debra are talking now, that would be wonderful to hear! They have all had so much pain in their lives, and Debra even more so by being accused by her brother. Sad, sad, sad. Rusty had never heard of Debardeleben until it was brought up here on WS, and our sleuther contacted him. I think Rusty then contacted Ft. Worth LE, and learned that they had also suspected Debardeleben could've been responsible. They just can't prove it due to lack of evidence, and the fact the girls bodies have never been found.

Some of Debardelben's crimes: auto theft, forgery, burglary, bank robbery, printing money, rape, sexual sadism serial killings. Heck of a nice guy--NOT! Debardeleben was known as the Mall Passer because that's where he passed his phony bills. So he spent some time in shopping malls. While in Texas, he passed phony bills in Dallas, but not Fort Worth, so he likely avoided Fort Worth because he was living there at the time.

TexasSandman · #13 03-29-2010, 04:31 PM

Rusty has read this thread...as have FW LE. Rusty refrains from posting & updating the missingtrio site per LE request. I speak with him now & again and though I know he is open to all tips and that he checks them all out and passes on to LE, I don't believe he has completely changed his mind on what may have happened to the girls. Also, it's not accurate to say that Rusty is the only one in the families to think these theories may have merit.

s_v_c · #14 03-30-2010, 09:35 AM

Thanks for the update, Texas Sandman! I was interested to hear that Fort Worth LE asked Rusty to stop updating the missing trio website. They must have a reason for doing so, and I'm glad to hear that they are keeping this case in their minds. Rusty, if you're reading this, I hope this is the year that can bring closure to you and your family. You've had to wait far too long to find out what happened to your missing family, something no one should have to experience.

justthinkin · #15 03-30-2010, 03:10 PM

I see I was mistaken about michiganlifer's post. I was under the impression that Rusty and Debra had begun to recently patch their relationship by talking, but after going to the missingtrio.com site, I see michiganlifer's comments refer obviously to a much earlier time, before Rusty came to the conclusion his sister, Debra was involved.

TexasSandman, I don't know if you were referring to my post when you made the statement, "Also, it's not accurate to say that Rusty is the only one in the families to think these theories may have merit," but, I never claimed anything in that regard. As for the letter signed by Rusty and others, I believe that was prior to Debra taking a polygraph test. It is my understanding that she complied with their request. However, I don't know the outcome, and only have her word that she passed via her posts to this thread.

If you have information that refutes her having taken a polygraph, and having passed that polygraph, I'd sure like to hear it, so I can reassess things myself.

It is also my understanding that Rusty is basically estranged from his mother because she disagrees with his assessment as to Debra's involvement. True or not true? Debra posted here that she and her mother are on one side and Rusty on the other, their mother not believing that Debra had any involvement in the girls' disappearance.

Personally, I don't either. It just doesn't stand the test of reason. Far more likely is that the two older girls met up with a couple of guys that they knew or that one of them knew casually, and all three were abducted by them or else they met up with Debardeleben posing as a cop, something he was known to do, him placing them under phony arrest, and handcuffing the girls to prevent their escape.

I do think it possible that Debra, unknowingly, may have introduced Rachel to someone that she, Debra was dating, and that person could be responsible for the girls' abduction. Unfortunate as that would be, things like that do happen. Also, since Rachel was unhappy in her marriage, she may have met someone on the side, a bad someone, who later abducted the three girls.

Still, the savings bonds are a puzzle, and would lend credence to the girls' running away. Again though, I think if that was the intention, Julie Ann would've been dropped off first, unless as I said, the person or persons the girls were running away with were a couple of bad characters who had other ideas altogether.

TexasSandman · #16 03-30-2010, 03:28 PM

K just a quick rundown..sorry..tis a busy day...Rusty and his mom have put aside their disagreements. My comment wasn't directed specifically at you as there have been a few posts indicating that may be the case (re: being the only one to think this). There are many versions to how many polygraphs Debra actually took, and what those results were. Tommy has been quoted as saying he isn't certain the Savings Bonds were even in the car and since AMW dropped the ball on Julie Ann's call, they make it sound like it was years later, I don't hold much merit to the possibility they were in the car and may be cashed some day.

justthinkin · #17 03-30-2010, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexasSandman

K just a quick rundown..sorry..tis a busy day...Rusty and his mom have put aside their disagreements. My comment wasn't directed specifically at you as there have been a few posts indicating that may be the case (re: being the only one to think this). There are many versions to how many polygraphs Debra actually took, and what those results were. Tommy has been quoted as saying he isn't certain the Savings Bonds were even in the car and since AMW dropped the ball on Julie Ann's call, they make it sound like it was years later, I don't hold much merit to the possibility they were in the car and may be cashed some day.

I am thankful to hear that Rusty and his mom have put aside their disagreements, for both their sakes!

The only polygraph that I'd be interested in is one given to Debra by the Fort Worth PD. I would presume under the circumstances, if she was cleared or not cleared that would've been made known to her, her mother, and Rusty. I also believe if she hadn't been cleared by a poly that Rusty would've put that up on his website since he is determined to implicate his sister. So I have to call foul on him for posting that letter that he signed along with members of both the other families, and letting it go at that. Good gosh, Rusty, if your sister's been cleared by polygraph then say so. That's just not right at all. Don't get me wrong. I am well aware that you lost a sister too, and I am very sad this has happened to your family. I just can't imagine putting myself into your shoes nor would I want to go there. I just don't think it's right if Debra has been cleared for you not to at least give her that much by saying so.

If those savings bonds were ever cashed there would be a record of it, easily obtainable by Ft. Worth LEOs.

TexasSandman · #18 03-30-2010, 05:59 PM

From my understanding there were several questionable areas of the results and they in no way cleared or implicated anyone with certainty. Just left more questions.

justthinkin · #19 03-31-2010, 01:03 AM

That makes absolutely no sense to me. Polygraphs are designed to to indicate deception or truth, not some gray area.

TexasSandman · #20 03-31-2010, 09:49 AM

without going into too much detail... according to several family members, LE said there were areas of the polygraph that indicated Debra was less than truthful.

Roy23 · #21 03-31-2010, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justthinkin

That makes absolutely no sense to me. Polygraphs are designed to to indicate deception or truth, not some gray area.

I think it would be best if you would let this sleeping dog lie. TS has basically given you answers out of the goodness of his heart.

dashamarie · #22 03-31-2010, 05:36 PM

Polygraphs are designed to record the physiological response of the subject during a question and subsequent answer. A trained technician is then required to *interpret* the response. Obviously there are known and accepted parameters for this interpretation, but everyone will respond differently to shock and/or stress. This is why some people are able to “game” the system. Additionally, if someone were to threaten the subject with a knife during their answer, for example, it could make a completely honest answer appear to be a lie. Therefore, polygraphs are not 100% accurate and do contain a lot of “grey area”.

The polygraph that is being discussed is not public record, and even if it were, only a trained/qualified technician could give an *opinion* on what the results mean. Anything else is merely speculation or hearsay.

dodie20 · #23 04-04-2010, 11:13 PM

I'm sorry if I'm asking an old question, but I'm a little late to this forum. I live in Texas, so I'm familiar with this case, but I'm a little lost. Usually, in a case like this, I go with statistics, because kidnappers, serial killers, white slavery, are pretty rare. But with that said, that area has had its share of serial killers, through the years. This is my question...I know suspicion has been cast on an older sister, but have all of the other family members been cleared? Since the husband was the one who received that bizarre letter, I was mainly wondering about him. Does anybody know why he was already on his 2nd marraige? not to mention @ least one other engagement...to his wife's sister who was living in their house. Something's not right with that set-up. & she refused an offer to accompany them shopping. Does anybody know where the husband was that day? If this sister was involved, there is NO way, that she acted alone, & there is NO way that she convinced neutral friends to help her. No, if the sister was involved, then her help came from someone with a vested interest. That letter was obviously written so #1, someone could buy time, & #2, to plant the idea that they had willingly taken off & were o.k. Sounds like an idea from a very immature person. Another thing that bothers me are the bones of the 3 girls that were found, back in 1981? Have they been positively identified & accounted for? If not, with new DNA, I think they should be retested. Because what are the odds that a tip comes in & bones are actually found? Do the cops know the tipster? Also, does anybody involved in this case, have any connection to the area in which the bones were found?

michiganlifer · #24 04-12-2010, 07:39 PM

I think I remember reading in the past posts that Rachel's husband was at work. I know Debra was on here for a while, but I haven't seen her post in a long time. Texassandman and Rose know the family. Maybe they can answer your questions better than my attempt.

dashamarie · #25 04-23-2010, 02:12 PM

As a follow up to my earlier post, and just for general info, I thought some of y'all might be interested in reading this article reagarding use of polygraph equipment:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...detector-tests