Zahau Family Sues County for Additional Evidence

[Mrs. Holmes]

Wanted to point out that legal documents links etc. can be put here as Salem opened this up for us.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=457"]Rebecca Zahau Nalepa Reference Forum - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

And many thanks for those that have so graciously and generously obtained legal documents for us.

 

[*Lash*]

Here is a good story another poster shared. Patrick talks about how SDSO botched his brothers investigation. The story discusses 4 more botched cases, including Rebecca's case. SDSO is still standing by their investigation of why they believed the McStay's walked away. I did not know Patrick filed a complaint against SDSO with internal affairs.

The article also includes mouth piece Jan Caldwell at her finest! uke:

Snippet, much more at link -

Already we are seeing a totally different attitude from the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Deptartment (SBSD) than from the San Diego County Sheriff's Department (SDSD).

Patrick McStay, brought it to my attention that just last week, "SDSD Jan Caldwell said they are still standing by their original claim that my family walked into Mexico."

This is contrary to what SBSD Sheriff John McMahon has said which is, "they [SBSD] don't believe they ever went to Mexico."

"I can't believe someone would (as I believe) tell such a blatant lie," said Patrick referring to Caldwell's statement. "It just shows their arrogance and unwillingness to admit they were wrong from the start. CYA!!! Why aren't the public and all the news media all over that!"

Patrick, who has a constitution like a dog-with-a-bone, constantly was checking up on his family's case with the police and sharing information that he found with the SDSD, but instead of them welcoming his input or answering his questions they stopped talking to him altogether.

I think that it became a general consensus with the police that the family voluntarily left, so anything coming from Patrick was bollocks. In other words, they were right so there was nothing more to talk about nor investigate.

Patrick felt he had no where else to turn and filed a complaint to the department's internal affairs division about the investigation in 2011. Nothing came of it and the communication between him and the lead investigator on the case became non existent.

Patrick stated the SDSD "botched the case," and says that to this day the SDSD has yet to contact him and tell him it was his family that was found in Victorville.

http://www.missingpersonsofamerica....PersonsOfAmerica+(Missing+Persons+of+America)

 

[bourne]

Here is a good story another poster shared. Patrick talks about how SDSO botched his brothers investigation. The story discusses 4 more botched cases, including Rebecca's case. SDSO is still standing by their investigation of why they believed the McStay's walked away. I did not know Patrick filed a complaint against SDSO with internal affairs.

The article also includes mouth piece Jan Caldwell at her finest! uke:

Snippet, much more at link -

Wish we could obtain progress reports on the Internal Affairs Investigations against SDSO with respect to the McStay case...

Hope Patrick sues SDSO for intentional infliction of emotional distress and failure of professional duty to uphold and carry out the law.

 

[bourne]

Good points Carioca and Lash. I have no idea why Paul Pfingst would call 911. But I'm 100.00% certain Paul Pfingst's 911 call is NOT the missing 8 second gap on Adam's 911 audiotape, and I'm 100.00% certain PP's 911 call did not occur during the same time period as Adam's. How do I know?

Well, let's see. First of all, the only way PP would know about a "suspicious, violent death" at the Spreckels mansion is *after* someone called him...unless someone is saying that PP was physically present at the mansion when Rebecca was murdered or that PP was called to the mansion *prior* to or *during* Adam allegedly discovering Rebecca's hanging body.

I think for obvious reasons that PP would definitely *not* want to incriminate himself for the murder of Rebecca, so the latter suggestions can be ruled out.

Second, it is then safe to assume that PP obtained info regarding Rebecca's death via a third party, likely Jonah Shacknai. Who knows PP on a personal basis and would have his direct telephone number? Evidently that would be Jonah Shacknai who has long been known to be friends with PP and it is said by insiders that PP had been invited to parties at JS' home.

Third, I highly doubt that Adam would be carrying PP's contact information around -- unless we're going to assume that JS somehow decided to gift PP's info to Adam for some reason prior to Rebecca's body being found. So we can cross Adam out as a person who called PP to alert 911 or show up at the crime scene at Spreckel's mansion.

So we can infer from all the above that it was likely JS who contacted PP (okay, since JS knows the legal system, JS likely contacted his legal team or one of his company's staff and had them call PP directly).

But would JS have contacted PP *while* Adam was on the line with 911 dispatcher? I highly doubt it because that would mean that JS somehow knew in advance of Rebecca's death *before* Adam even communicated with JS about her death. And why would JS want to incriminate himself in Rebecca's murder?

Logically then, we would have to assume that when Adam alleged discovered Rebecca's body at 6:30am Wed 7/13/2011, Adam likely contacted Jonah at about the same time. In fact, IIRC, it was said that Adam *did* in fact text his brother JS at about the same time he was on the 911 phone call.

By golly, I think we got it! The missing 8-second audio gap on Adam's 911 call could very well be when Adam was *texting* Jonah about Rebecca's death. I'm pretty certain that when we're in the midst of a phone call and then we text someone, the phone call then goes to *mute* (silence) because both the phonecall and the text can *not* occur at the same time, given that both must go through a telephone provider/wireless service.

I think that resolves the 8-second audio gap on Adam's 911 phonecall -- at least from my perspective.

As to Pfingst's 911 phone call, I have no idea *when* or *why* he would be calling 911. As Carioca and Lash have pointed out, 911 is supposed to be used specifically for *emergencies* and PP, as a seasoned lawyer and officer of the court, would definitely be aware of the legal ramifications of *misusing* the 911 phone call -- if he were calling 911 for *non-emergency* purposes.

Nevertheless, if I have to guess about *when* PP called 911, I'd say he did so *after* he himself was contacted by JS and/or JS' associates, and that PP's 911 phone call is sometime *after* Adam made his 911 call. I have no idea when specifically, but I would say it was definitely sometime subsequent to Adam's 911 call.

Ok, I did several experiments last night with two friends, A & B, on my Iphone. I assume Adam's Iphone worked the same way in 2011 as mine does today even though the operating system may be different. In the analogy, my using my Iphone yesterday would simulate Adam using his Iphone on 07/13/2011; Friend A would be the 911 dispatcher; Friend B Jonah.

Expt 1: I telephoned Friend A and was speaking to Friend A on my Iphone and then in the midst of the conversation I texted Friend B on same Iphone to see if Friend A would hear silence aka an 8-second audio gap while I texted B. Nope! No audio gap. Friend A heard me doing things on my end even throughout my texting Friend B.

Expt 2: I called and while conversing with A on Iphone, I placed Iphone on *MUTE* and then started texting B on same Iphone. Guess what? As predicted, Friend A heard *complete silence* on his end. This means that if SDLE did not tamper or edit the 911 phone call of Adam, then Adam likely had *muted* his Iphone while texting Jonah the morning he allegedly found Rebecca's dead body. This would explain why there have been reports that Adam texted his brother Jonah at the same time he telephoned 911.

In addition, I actually texted Friend B the words "Rebecca hung herself" and guess what? It took exactly 8 seconds to both text and send the text message! Of course, this is assuming that Adam and I text messages at the same rate...So to me, there is a very high probability (99.95%) that the 8-second audio gap in the 911 call is due to Adam texting Jonah that "Rebecca hung herself" while muting the 911 dispatcher.

 

[bourne]

Also, in follow-up to my above post, this would reasonably explain why Adam chose to *text* his brother Jonah that Rebecca had hung herself instead of directly telephoning Jonah the bad news -- because Adam didn't want to do a 3-way conversation with both Jonah and 911 dispatcher. He chose to have separate conversations/texts to both recipients.

On the other hand, it doesn't explain why Jonah would NOT call Adam back to ask him for details about Rebecca as most reasonable, normal people would do. I think human nature is such wherein for non-sociopaths who care about other people, if we hear that our significant other or even a mere friend or colleague was somehow found hanging and dead in our homes, we would be in shock, but then immediately call the messenger to ascertain more details about the reported death. At the very least, we'd want to know what they saw on and around the decedent's body, e.g., whether there was a suicide note if we suspected suicide, or the condition in which the body was found, e.g., what the decedent was holding or wearing, etc. In fact, most of us would likely actually physically show up at the home to make sure there was no mistaken identity that the decedent is someone we know, etc., although I could see if someone is squeamish about dead bodies that they might refrain from showing up at their own home to identify/observe the dead body.

In conclusion, it would be extremely helpful to obtain Jonah and Adam's phone records for the morning of 07/13/2011 and also the night of 07/12/2011. If Jonah made *no attempt* to obtain more info from Adam about Rebecca's death, that would be highly suspicious and suggests that Jonah might have colluded with Rebecca's murderers...particularly if immediately after, he simply telephoned Dina, the ex-wife he presumably hated, that Rebecca had "hung herself".

 

[bourne]

Excellent post, Bourne.

BBM: I agree, JS himself probably did not contact PP. Therefore PP could not be accused of lying when said he had not talked with Jonah, even though he refused to say who he was representing.

BTW, the dirty kittens would have you believe that PP was there to represent RZ regarding a CPS call and was totally caught off guard when he arrived at the mansion and found out that she was dead.

Back to AS/JS/PP: I have a feeling there was more texting going on between AS and JS besides "Rebecca hung herself."

BBM. The dirty kittens make me :floorlaugh: Police files and phone records obtained by Ann Rule showed proof positive that PP was at the Spreckels mansion to represent Adam Shacknai. So the kittens' purposeful attempt to mislead the public with erroneous information is beyond ridiculous.

Below are excerpts from Rule, Ann (2012-11-27). Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors (Ann Rule's Crime Files) (p. 190). Simon & Schuster, Inc.. Kindle Edition. Bolds made by me to emphasize whom PP was confirmed to have legally represented in the Zahau case and it was definitely *NOT* Rebecca Zahau. Also I made bolds to highlight PP's conflict of interest and his appearance of professional misconduct by crossing the crime scene tape and hobnobbing with SDLE at the mansion while acting as a defense lawyer to Adam Shacknai.

"It was probably Jonah who had retained Paul Pfingst, the lawyer who had texted Adam just before he took the polygraph tests. Unable to reach Adam, Pfingst knew the private number to call at the sheriff’s office where he could get a message to Adam as soon as possible. His intent had indeed been to advise Adam, as Detective Hillen had predicted, that he should avoid the polygraph machine— at least at this point in the investigation. "

"Since the results were inconclusive, it didn’t really matter. Earlier in the day, Paul Pfingst had gone to the Spreckels Mansion before Rebecca Zahau’s body was removed. He was one of the few people besides the EMTs and law enforcement personnel to be allowed onto the property. Pfingst was photographed talking with the detectives on the other side of the CRIME SCENE tape. In one shot, a detective has an arm around Pfingst’s shoulder."

"Although he was currently in private practice as a criminal defense attorney, Paul Pfingst was familiar to many of the investigators. He had served two terms as district attorney of San Diego County, and he had forged friendships with law enforcement and forensic pathologists then. Even so, it was almost unheard-of for a defense attorney to be allowed inside a possible crime scene so early in an investigation. And it was troubling to some."

 

[kittychi]

Also, in follow-up to my above post, this would reasonably explain why Adam chose to *text* his brother Jonah that Rebecca had hung herself instead of directly telephoning Jonah the bad news -- because Adam didn't want to do a 3-way conversation with both Jonah and 911 dispatcher. He chose to have separate conversations/texts to both recipients.

On the other hand, it doesn't explain why Jonah would NOT call Adam back to ask him for details about Rebecca as most reasonable, normal people would do. I think human nature is such wherein for non-sociopaths who care about other people, if we hear that our significant other or even a mere friend or colleague was somehow found hanging and dead in our homes, we would be in shock, but then immediately call the messenger to ascertain more details about the reported death. At the very least, we'd want to know what they saw on and around the decedent's body, e.g., whether there was a suicide note if we suspected suicide, or the condition in which the body was found, e.g., what the decedent was holding or wearing, etc. In fact, most of us would likely actually physically show up at the home to make sure there was no mistaken identity that the decedent is someone we know, etc., although I could see if someone is squeamish about dead bodies that they might refrain from showing up at their own home to identify/observe the dead body.

In conclusion, it would be extremely helpful to obtain Jonah and Adam's phone records for the morning of 07/13/2011 and also the night of 07/12/2011. If Jonah made *no attempt* to obtain more info from Adam about Rebecca's death, that would be highly suspicious and suggests that Jonah might have colluded with Rebecca's murderers...particularly if immediately after, he simply telephoned Dina, the ex-wife he presumably hated, that Rebecca had "hung herself".

BBM: Every time I try to picture the scenario, I cannot put an iPhone in Adam's hand or against his cheek while cutting down Rebecca as he claimed he did. And all that noise and clatter, the table leg or whatever it was; was he really trying to do it with one hand? IMO it is basically ergonomically impossible to hold an iPhone between cheek and shoulder.

 

[kittychi]

BBM. The dirty kittens make me :floorlaugh: Police files and phone records obtained by Ann Rule showed proof positive that PP was at the Spreckels mansion to represent Adam Shacknai. So the kittens' purposeful attempt to mislead the public with erroneous information is beyond ridiculous.

Below are excerpts from Rule, Ann (2012-11-27). Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors (Ann Rule's Crime Files) (p. 190). Simon & Schuster, Inc.. Kindle Edition. Bolds made by me to emphasize whom PP was confirmed to have legally represented in the Zahau case and it was definitely *NOT* Rebecca Zahau. Also I made bolds to highlight PP's conflict of interest and his appearance of professional misconduct by crossing the crime scene tape and hobnobbing with SDLE at the mansion while acting as a defense lawyer to Adam Shacknai.

"It was probably Jonah who had retained Paul Pfingst, the lawyer who had texted Adam just before he took the polygraph tests. Unable to reach Adam, Pfingst knew the private number to call at the sheriff’s office where he could get a message to Adam as soon as possible. His intent had indeed been to advise Adam, as Detective Hillen had predicted, that he should avoid the polygraph machine— at least at this point in the investigation. "

"Since the results were inconclusive, it didn’t really matter. Earlier in the day, Paul Pfingst had gone to the Spreckels Mansion before Rebecca Zahau’s body was removed. He was one of the few people besides the EMTs and law enforcement personnel to be allowed onto the property. Pfingst was photographed talking with the detectives on the other side of the CRIME SCENE tape. In one shot, a detective has an arm around Pfingst’s shoulder."

"Although he was currently in private practice as a criminal defense attorney, Paul Pfingst was familiar to many of the investigators. He had served two terms as district attorney of San Diego County, and he had forged friendships with law enforcement and forensic pathologists then. Even so, it was almost unheard-of for a defense attorney to be allowed inside a possible crime scene so early in an investigation. And it was troubling to some."

BBM: There had to be some other communication between Adam and Jonah to bring Paul Pfingst into the picture. I don't think that just texting "Rebecca hung herself" would trigger a series of phone calls and events that get PP there within a couple of hours or less.

 

[*Lash*]

Bourne, thank you for the doing the experiment. It could explain the gap. It would take a lot of multi tasking since Adam was supposedly attending to Rebecca, talking to the 911 operator and possibly texting Jonah, all at the same time.

IIRC, one the LE agencies involved have/had the same 911 recording and there is not a missing 8 second gap or there wasn't an 8 second gap when the recording was handed over? I will have to research where this thought comes from. Maybe it was discussed on Dr. Phil. Does anyone else remember this?

Jonah and Adam's phone records definitely should be compared and reviewed. I can't believe a text message notifying Jonah his girlfriend hung herself was all the details Jonah needed. Unfortunately, LE did not request Adam or Nina's phone records. In my opinion, very odd considering Adam was allegedly the last person to see Rebecca alive, allegedly found Rebecca hanging and had an inconclusive polygraph. Not to mention Adam's ambien and *advertiser censored* alibis. Nina was allegedly at the mansion that night, not her sister. Nina allegedly sent Rebecca a text message and Nina cancelled a requested polygraph. But I get it, it appears SDSO has a pattern of ignoring evidence once they form their opinion.

 

[Carioca]

clipped for focus
IIRC, one the LE agencies involved have/had the same 911 recording and there is not a missing 8 second gap or there wasn't an 8 second gap when the recording was handed over? I will have to research where this thought comes from.

Hi *Lash* - it states clearly in the lawsuit that the original recorded by CPD does not have the 8-second gap:

Footnote 2: The Adam Shacknai 911 tape has an unexplained "8-second gap" at 1:43 of the 911 call during which no sound was recorded. We are informed by the Coronado Police Department, which recorded the call, that there was no "8-second gap" in the original recording.

 

[bourne]

Hi *Lash* - it states clearly in the lawsuit that the original recorded by CPD does not have the 8-second gap:

The statement by CPD depends on how CPD interpreted what is meant by an audio "gap". Could be that there was just 8-second *silence* (as when Adam might have *muted* his phone) and to CPD, there is still continuity in the audio tape and they don't consider the 8-sec silence a "gap".

For instance, if you are recording a phone call a friend makes to you and in the midst of the phonecall s/he puts you on hold and the recording is still running and you're still on the other line and you hear silence, you would not call the silence a "gap" because in your recording was *continuous* through the entire conversation. I'm not saying LE did not tamper with Adam's 911 audiotape, but this would be one explanation for why CPD asserts that there was no 8-second gap.

 

[bourne]

BBM: There had to be some other communication between Adam and Jonah to bring Paul Pfingst into the picture. I don't think that just texting "Rebecca hung herself" would trigger a series of phone calls and events that get PP there within a couple of hours or less.

That's the crux of the matter. *IF in fact* Jonah had only received one single text message from Adam that "Rebecca hung herself" and then Jonah NEVER responded or called Adam back, but instead called Dina and had his legal/company team call Pfingst, then that right there would make us question Jonah's *innocence* in Rebecca's torture/murder. Because quite clearly, if someone only received a short text message relaying Rebecca's death, one would instinctively ask more questions before making plans to call his ex-wife and call a defense lawyer for his brother.

If what you say is true, that there were more conversations between Jonah and Adam than the single text message from Adam at 6:30am Wed, that would pretty much *exonerate* Jonah from culpability of having colluded with Rebecca's murderers. If Jonah did ask more details about Rebecca's death from Adam and there were a series of phone conversations between Jonah and Adam BEFORE Jonah notified Dina and sought Pfingst's legal help about Rebecca's death, that in my book suggests that Jonah had NOT colluded with Rebecca's murderers. Because otherwise, *IF* Jonah were involved in Rebecca's murder, one would reasonably presume that Jonah would already know the details relating to how Rebecca came to be dead, so he would not need to ask Adam about any more info.

What I see is that *IF* Jonah conspired with Rebecca's murderers or even masterminded her murder as some posters claim, then surely he would know that only receiving one single text message from Adam that Rebecca hung herself and his not seeking more info about her death would look highly suspicious.

So I tend to agree with you that Jonah and Adam had a few convos before he alerted Dina/Pfingst. I personally don't believe Jonah was involved in Rebecca's murder, but that in protecting his brother from being blamed for Rebecca's murder, Jonah's actions subsequent to Rebecca's murder led to a coverup of Rebecca's murder and the murder being falsely ruled a "suicide".

 

[bourne]

Bourne, thank you for the doing the experiment. It could explain the gap. It would take a lot of multi tasking since Adam was supposedly attending to Rebecca, talking to the 911 operator and possibly texting Jonah, all at the same time.

IIRC, one the LE agencies involved have/had the same 911 recording and there is not a missing 8 second gap or there wasn't an 8 second gap when the recording was handed over? I will have to research where this thought comes from. Maybe it was discussed on Dr. Phil. Does anyone else remember this?

Jonah and Adam's phone records definitely should be compared and reviewed. I can't believe a text message notifying Jonah his girlfriend hung herself was all the details Jonah needed. Unfortunately, LE did not request Adam or Nina's phone records. In my opinion, very odd considering Adam was allegedly the last person to see Rebecca alive, allegedly found Rebecca hanging and had an inconclusive polygraph. Not to mention Adam's ambien and *advertiser censored* alibis. Nina was allegedly at the mansion that night, not her sister. Nina allegedly sent Rebecca a text message and Nina cancelled a requested polygraph. But I get it, it appears SDSO has a pattern of ignoring evidence once they form their opinion.

Agreed, at first glance, sounds like a LOT of multitasking. Hard to imagine a dufus such as Adam doing all that, but I think we all can agree that whatever CPR he had claimed to have done on Rebecca was *minimal*, if done at all, given that her hands were bound behind her back and one cannot perform CPR with someone's back not lying flat against the ground/platform.

I can picture this scenario. Adam calls 911. Couldn't give right address because of confusion or lack of familiarity with address or was pretending he didn't know it. (My view is he was confused due to finding someone hanging). He hangs up on 911 and said he would call them back with address. But 911 operators do NOT hang up, as per protocol so the 911 audiotape continues rolling...Adam lays the iphone down or in his pocket.

Adam then makes a series of noise in which he either is actually pulling a table underneath Rebecca (or not) and cuts Rebecca down. (Yes, I believe he found her hanging). He then takes t-shirt out of Rebecca's mouth. Blows a few rescue breaths. Then haphazardly pushes her chest a few times even though she is not lying flat. Basically doing *whatever rescue attempt he could even if not properly* because as he states during polygraph, he's a "can do guy"...

He picks up his iphone. 911 operator is still on line. She asks him some questions. Is she alive, etc. Adam repeats what operator says. He then tells operator he's doing CPR. He probably pushes at Rebecca's chest again, cussing and whatnot.

At some point he decides to text his brother Jonah.

So no, I don't think there was too much multitasking although it sounds like it because these actions could be done sequentially. He holds iphone in his hand and calls 911. Says a few things, answers a few questions. Puts down iphone. Does some random CPR type stuff on Rebecca. Picks up Iphone. Texts his brother...

Likely as kittychi said, there were more than the one text between Adam and Jonah after that.

For confirmation, I want to see Adam and Jonah's phone records, and Dina and Nina's, and Dr. Luber's and the Chef Niles and his wife's as well. I think phone records hold the key to who was in collusion with whom to murder Rebecca.

 

[Zinn]

I don't think I've seen a claim from LE that the only communication between AS and JS was that one text message. IIRC, it was claimed that JS learned of Rebecca's death via text message from AS, and DS learned of Rebecca's death via a phone call from JS, but does that mean there weren't additional conversations? I never interpreted as a full accounting of the communications. If I'm mistaken, feel free to correct me.

All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[MaybeNotToday]

I don't think I've seen a claim from LE that the only communication between AS and JS was that one text message. IIRC, it was claimed that JS learned of Rebecca's death via text message from AS, and DS learned of Rebecca's death via a phone call from JS, but does that mean there weren't additional conversations? I never interpreted as a full accounting of the communications. If I'm mistaken, feel free to correct me.

All of the above is just my opinion.

This has been a problem from the very beginning. Some interpreted the investigative reports wording very literally, while others gave a little more room. It will be interesting to see who believed in the reports as gospel versus what they believe now as new information becomes available.

 

[Zinn]

This has been a problem from the very beginning. Some interpreted the investigative reports wording very literally, while others gave a little more room. It will be interesting to see who believed in the reports as gospel versus what they believe now as new information becomes available.

We can look to NR's presence at the mansion that evening, as well as her late night text message to Rebecca, as examples of information omitted from investigative reports that later emerged through other channels. Personally, I didn't notice any resistance to the new information upon its release, though many people were surprised to learn that information was not provided in the investigative reports. IIRC, many had never heard of NR before Rebecca's phone records were released.

All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[Inparadise]

We can look to NR's presence at the mansion that evening, as well as her late night text message to Rebecca, as examples of information omitted from investigative reports that later emerged through other channels. Personally, I didn't notice any resistance to the new information upon its release, though many people were surprised to learn that information was not provided in the investigative reports. IIRC, many had never heard of NR before Rebecca's phone records were released.

All of the above is just my opinion.

It is also very odd that LE did not insist that Jonah, the homeowner, return to the home after Rebecca's body was found. This is SOP whenever a crime has been committed,particularly when a dead body is involved!

 

[screecher]

This has been a problem from the very beginning. Some interpreted the investigative reports wording very literally, while others gave a little more room. It will be interesting to see who believed in the reports as gospel versus what they believe now as new information becomes available.

What's interesting (rather, shady), is the omission of so much info. IMO, along with many other bizarre actions and non-actions, it points to a cover-up from the inception of the investigation of Rebecca's murder.

 

[bourne]

What's interesting (rather, shady), is the omission of so much info. IMO, along with many other bizarre actions and non-actions, it points to a cover-up from the inception of the investigation of Rebecca's murder.

Absolutely true! Tons of omissions and dereliction of duty on part of the police with regards to the Zahau case. The police either went into their investigation blinded by bias and only sought out info that would confirm their biases, or they were stymied by higher-ups to do their job in a proper and timely basis.

 

[bourne]

This has been a problem from the very beginning. Some interpreted the investigative reports wording very literally, while others gave a little more room. It will be interesting to see who believed in the reports as gospel versus what they believe now as new information becomes available.

This sounds like you're simply mocking/criticizing fellow posters. What exactly does this have to do with the topic of the thread?