Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

[seattlechiquita]

This is why I am surprised that this option has not been brought up. Between the family, one of which is a nurse, friends and the faith based community, it would seem the most logical to me for her to be in a home setting.

I don't know the laws in CA, but other stories I have read, children were cared for at home.

The mother has specifically stated that Jahi needs nutrition. I imagine she would want her to have all other medications and treatment as well. Hypothetically, if she were to be moved to another facility, I don't see any facility providing the treatment that the mother would demand, nor to I see the extreme cost being covered by any form.

The reason that people like Dr. Byrne don't create these types of facilities to care for the legally dead, is because insurance will not pay for it. The is no profit incentive for him to do so. You would have to be extremely wealthy to be able to pay for it out of pocket and any non profit or religious organizations funds would be quickly wiped out by the cost. A facility like this would not be ethical nor medically necessary, because the person is deceased. There is zero chance of improvement to their condition.

What is left, if families choose to fight this and wish to keep the deceased on artificial support, is for them to take care of them at home, if that option is even legally possible.

I thought about it was well, but for home care to happen Children's would have to install a feeding tube, which they will not do on a dead person.

 

[K_Z]

I don't believe Jahi is going to recover.

I also don't believe the coroner would do an autopsy on a child that died in a hospital from medical complications. The coroner relies on the attending physician's judgment if further inquiry is needed.

BBM. What??? Are you serious??? Are you saying that you think an autopsy should NOT be done on this child??? That is both illegal and preposterous!

She died as a direct result of surgical complications from elective surgery within hours of admission. She HAS to have an autopsy, under law. The family cannot opt out of it. Neither can the hospital.

 

[rob]

I don't believe Jahi is going to recover.

I also don't believe the coroner would do an autopsy on a child that died in a hospital from medical complications. The coroner relies on the attending physician's judgment if further inquiry is needed.

That's not the case in SC. When someone dies of unexplained circumstances, or is so young that they should not have died, you don't have a choice, there is going to be an autopsy. Even if the family objected, there would be one. When my son died, I was asked (by the hospital)did I want an autopsy, I said no, but the county cornorer, came and told me, Sorry but we have to do one. I didn't mind them doing it, I just felt I knew what happened, and didn't require one myself. Someone at the hospital later told me, if I had requested it, I would have paid for it, this way the County paid. Its always about the money.
Another thing I think, but don't know is, if another place was considering taking Jahi, wouldn't they have called and gotten all the info, or if the cornorer had approved it, wouldn't his office have notified the hospital?
The family not allowing the hospital to speak, speaks volumnes to me. There are things they don't want said.
This situation has gone beyond a family not accepting death, and there are other agendas now. The attorney has some explaining to do. All IMO

 

[MyBelle]

I'm not a California coroner but imo that is nonsense. If they don't inspect sudden deaths that may possibly have been caused by medical malpractice or negligence they wouldn't be doing their job imo. This is so high profile anyway, and as I understand it has already been reported as a coroner case. Surely the family lawyer would make a fuss if the family suspect negligence was involved and her death wasn't properly investigated.

http://www.justanswer.com/law/0x0bb-when-autopsy-required-california.html

CALIFORNIA GOVERNMENT CODE SECTION 27491

27491. It shall be the duty of the coroner to inquire into and determine the circumstances, manner, and cause of all violent, sudden, or unusual deaths; unattended deaths; deaths wherein the deceased has not been attended by a physician in the 20 days before death; deaths related to or following known or suspected self-induced or criminal abortion; known or suspected homicide, suicide, or accidental poisoning; deaths known or suspected as resulting in whole or in part from or related to accident or injury either old or recent; deaths due to drowning, fire, hanging, gunshot, stabbing, cutting, exposure, starvation, acute alcoholism, drug addiction, strangulation, aspiration, or where the suspected cause of death is sudden infant death syndrome; death in whole or in part occasioned by criminal means; deaths associated with a known or alleged rape or crime against nature; deaths in prison or while under sentence; deaths known or suspected as due to contagious disease and constituting a public hazard; deaths from occupational diseases or occupational hazards; deaths of patients in state mental hospitals serving the mentally disabled and operated by the Stat Department of Mental Health; deaths of patients in state hospitals serving the developmentally disabled and operated by the State Department of Developmental Services; deaths under such circumstances as to afford a reasonable ground to suspect that the death was caused by the criminal act of another; and any deaths reported by physicians or other persons having knowledge of death for inquiry by coroner. Inquiry pursuant to this section does not include those investigative functions usually performed by other law enforcement agencies.

In any case in which the coroner conducts an inquiry pursuant to this section, the coroner or a deputy shall personally sign the certificate of death. If the death occurred in a state hospital, the coroner shall forward a copy of his or her report to the state agency responsible for the state hospital.

The coroner shall have discretion to determine the extent of inquiry to be made into any death occurring under natural circumstances and falling within the provisions of this section, and if inquiry determines that the physician of record has sufficient knowledge to reasonably state the cause of a death occurring under natural circumstances, the coroner may authorize that physician to sign the certificate of death.

For the purpose of inquiry, the coroner shall have the right to exhume the body of a deceased person when necessary to discharge the responsibilities set forth in this section.

Any funeral director, physician, or other person who has charge of a deceased person's body, when death occurred as a result of any of the causes or circumstances described in this section, shall immediately notify the coroner. Any person who does not notify the coroner as required by this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.

imo, There is no way any coroner has the capability or resources to autopsy every patient who dies in a hospital while under a physician's care. And they aren't going to autopsy a child just to satisfy an emotional parent who insists the hospital death is suspicious. I think it would be done only if police request it. Malpractice is a civil claim, not criminal.

 

[MyBelle]

That's not the case in SC. When someone dies of unexplained circumstances, or is so young that they should not have died, you don't have a choice, there is going to be an autopsy. Even if the family objected, there would be one. When my son died, I was asked (by the hospital)did I want an autopsy, I said no, but the county cornorer, came and told me, Sorry but we have to do one. I didn't mind them doing it, I just felt I knew what happened, and didn't require one myself. Someone at the hospital later told me, if I had requested it, I would have paid for it, this way the County paid. Its always about the money.
Another thing I think, but don't know is, if another place was considering taking Jahi, wouldn't they have called and gotten all the info, or if the cornorer had approved it, wouldn't his office have notified the hospital?
The family not allowing the hospital to speak, speaks volumnes to me. There are things they don't want said.
This situation has gone beyond a family not accepting death, and there are other agendas now. The attorney has some explaining to do. All IMO

The hospital has managed to speak without the family's permission via court documents as well as releasing letters the hospital has sent to the attorney.

 

[krimekat]

imo, There is no way any coroner has the capability or resources to autopsy every patient who dies in a hospital while under a physician's care. And they aren't going to autopsy a child just to satisfy an emotional parent who insists the hospital death is suspicious. I think it would be done only if police request it. Malpractice is a civil claim, not criminal.

coroners do not perform autopsies, do they?

nothing to do with police requests, of course, there will be an autopsy

 

[K_Z]

imo, There is no way any coroner has the capability or resources to autopsy every patient who dies in a hospital while under a physician's care. And they aren't going to autopsy a child just to satisfy an emotional parent who insists the hospital death is suspicious. I think it would be done only if police request it. Malpractice is a civil claim, not criminal.

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you are completely and thoroughly wrong about this. It's not even up for debate. The statute is cited above.

She is a coroner's case by law, and will be autopsied. There is really no discussion or debate about it. Religious objections will not prevent it. She died following elective surgery. She did not die after a long illness like cancer.

Neither the family, nor the attending docs, nor the hospital have any say in preventing it. The coroner is independent of these entities under law. As well they should be.

It's distasteful to contemplate. But like many medical procedures, it is necessary in this case.

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

It will be interesting to see what is in her system, stomach, if anything.

Elley Mae - can you expound on this? I am not sure what you mean.

 

[MyBelle]

BBM. What??? Are you serious??? Are you saying that you think an autopsy should NOT be done on this child??? That is both illegal and preposterous!

She died as a direct result of surgical complications from elective surgery within hours of admission. She HAS to have an autopsy, under law. The family cannot opt out of it. Neither can the hospital.

No, I didn't say that an autopsy should not be done.

 

[MyBelle]

coroners do not perform autopsies, do they?

nothing to do with police requests, of course, there will be an autopsy

In my state, coroners conduct inquiries into suspicious and violent deaths by doing autopsies but they don't autopsy ever death especially if it was in a hospital attended by a physician or in hospice care with oversight by a physician. The coroner is allowed to rely on the opinion of the attending physician and signs the death certificate.

 

[Elley Mae]

Elley Mae - can you expound on this? I am not sure what you mean.

I just have a funny feeling that there is more to what transpired then what we have been privy to as far as to what she had in those 30 some minutes between recovery and icu. Just something hinky seems to be going on with the hospital not being allowed to discuss what transpired. I am not one too rely on 1/2 a story, It's my opinion that there is a lot that the hospital could say about those 30 plus minutes and what was going on in that room. jmo idk

 

[Donjeta]

imo, There is no way any coroner has the capability or resources to autopsy every patient who dies in a hospital while under a physician's care. And they aren't going to autopsy a child just to satisfy an emotional parent who insists the hospital death is suspicious. I think it would be done only if police request it. Malpractice is a civil claim, not criminal.

The Coroner's office are legally required to investigate the cause of any sudden, unusual deaths and every death reported by a physician for inquiry. I take it that the hospital reported her death to be investigated.

"It's wrong for someone who made mistakes on your child to just call the

coroner ... and not respect the family's feeling or rights," Jahi's grandmother, Sandra Chatman, who is a registered nurse, said last week. "I know Jahi suffered, and it tears me up."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jahi-mcmaths-family-faces-monday-life-support-deadline/

From the statements of the family, the hospital and the lawyer we know that Jahi is already considered a case for the coroner. I cannot imagine that in such a high profile case which is already been in court and may end up there again, they would not want to do everything right. There will be an autopsy. MOO.

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

there is a second thread for this little girl, but it is closed?

 

[Softail]

there is a second thread for this little girl, but it is closed?

Probably getting ready to close this one, and open the new one. This one is getting pretty long.

 

[MyBelle]

I'm not a California coroner but imo that is nonsense. If they don't inspect sudden deaths that may possibly have been caused by medical malpractice or negligence they wouldn't be doing their job imo. This is so high profile anyway, and as I understand it has already been reported as a coroner case. Surely the family lawyer would make a fuss if the family suspect negligence was involved and her death wasn't properly investigated.

http://www.justanswer.com/law/0x0bb-when-autopsy-required-california.html

CALIFORNIA GOVERNMENT CODE SECTION 27491

27491. It shall be the duty of the coroner to inquire into and determine the circumstances, manner, and cause of all violent, sudden, or unusual deaths; unattended deaths; deaths wherein the deceased has not been attended by a physician in the 20 days before death; deaths related to or following known or suspected self-induced or criminal abortion; known or suspected homicide, suicide, or accidental poisoning; deaths known or suspected as resulting in whole or in part from or related to accident or injury either old or recent; deaths due to drowning, fire, hanging, gunshot, stabbing, cutting, exposure, starvation, acute alcoholism, drug addiction, strangulation, aspiration, or where the suspected cause of death is sudden infant death syndrome; death in whole or in part occasioned by criminal means; deaths associated with a known or alleged rape or crime against nature; deaths in prison or while under sentence; deaths known or suspected as due to contagious disease and constituting a public hazard; deaths from occupational diseases or occupational hazards; deaths of patients in state mental hospitals serving the mentally disabled and operated by the Stat Department of Mental Health; deaths of patients in state hospitals serving the developmentally disabled and operated by the State Department of Developmental Services; deaths under such circumstances as to afford a reasonable ground to suspect that the death was caused by the criminal act of another; and any deaths reported by physicians or other persons having knowledge of death for inquiry by coroner. Inquiry pursuant to this section does not include those investigative functions usually performed by other law enforcement agencies.

In any case in which the coroner conducts an inquiry pursuant to this section, the coroner or a deputy shall personally sign the certificate of death. If the death occurred in a state hospital, the coroner shall forward a copy of his or her report to the state agency responsible for the state hospital.

The coroner shall have discretion to determine the extent of inquiry to be made into any death occurring under natural circumstances and falling within the provisions of this section, and if inquiry determines that the physician of record has sufficient knowledge to reasonably state the cause of a death occurring under natural circumstances, the coroner may authorize that physician to sign the certificate of death.

For the purpose of inquiry, the coroner shall have the right to exhume the body of a deceased person when necessary to discharge the responsibilities set forth in this section.

Any funeral director, physician, or other person who has charge of a deceased person's body, when death occurred as a result of any of the causes or circumstances described in this section, shall immediately notify the coroner. Any person who does not notify the coroner as required by this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.

BBM. Jahi was attended by a physician in a hospital for three days prior to her brain death. Why wouldn't the coroner rely on the physician's expertise?
What would be gained at this late date by doing an autopsy?

 

[Kimster]

In my state, coroners conduct inquiries into suspicious and violent deaths by doing autopsies but they don't autopsy ever death especially if it was in a hospital attended by a physician or in hospice care with oversight by a physician. The coroner is allowed to rely on the opinion of the attending physician and signs the death certificate.

Do you have a link for this statement of fact, or did I miss it up-thread?

 

[Donjeta]

An official from the Oakland coroner's office told CNN that Jahi's death was reported Thursday to the office.
"Once a death is reported to us, we have a duty and responsibility to immediately proceed to where the body lies, examine the body, make identification, make inquiry into the circumstances, manner, and means of death, and, as circumstances warrant, either order its removal for further investigation or disposition, or release the body to the next of kin," the official said, quoting California law.
Sealey said that though the family hoped to keep Jahi on life support, hospital representatives had told them Monday that would not be an option.
That has left the coroner's office in a delicate position.
"Technically, we can go where the body lies and we can begin our investigation as to the causes of death," the official from the coroner's office said. "We have been gracious and we have allowed the parents and the hospital to maintain the child on life support."

The official at the coroner's office said time is critical. "When the body is on a ventilator, the body is healing," the official said. "If a medical misadventure occurred, and the body is healing and covering up traces of that misadventure, the coroner pathologist has a more difficult time rendering a cause of death."'

The bigger issue is deciding whether it is more important to delay removing the ventilator to give relatives time to grieve or to act quickly to determine the causes of death before continued healing could make it impossible to ascertain those causes, the official said.

"We know the parents want answers, and it is our office that will provide answers if they are available to us," the official said. "The longer we wait, the less susceptible we are to getting the evidence we need to render a cause of death. Time is not on our side, from a medical investigation standpoint."

This article is from December 18 and the coroner's official clearly implies here that there will be an autopsy. If they were going to just rely on medical records and physician's word of what went wrong and not have an autopsy done the continued healing of Jahi's body wouldn't make a difference.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/17/health/california-girl-brain-dead/

 

[SeekingJana]

Here is a concern I have about 'warehousing' the clinically dead in some facility or facilities around the country for families who want to pursue such an outcome and can afford it, or have insurance that will pay for it, or can raise the money, etc.:

Since the person is legally dead, what protections do they have against being use for illegal or immoral purposes, such as black-market organ harvesting or production of *advertiser censored*, etc.? There are laws against desecration of a corpse, etc. but those aren't AFAIK as severe as for committing those crimes against a living person. What federal agency would oversee these 'living cemeteries'? Or would it be left to each state or to local authorities? Would medical personnel be required to oversee the facility? If so, would current malpractice insurance/laws apply? Would there need to be a two-step process for issuing death certificates, once when the personally is legally dead, and another for when the body finally gives up? I don't know, it seems a very complicated and ethically fraught notion to me--but you know, if you say "it's just *this* child, why can't she be maintained?" then how can you say 'no' to the next child? The next mother of young children? The next beloved uncle? Such a moral minefield.

This was the plot for one of Robin Cook's first thrillers- " Coma". Warehoused brain-dead people who supplied the organ market.
Truth is getting to be stranger than 1980's science fiction....

 

[krimekat]

In my state, coroners conduct inquiries into suspicious and violent deaths by doing autopsies but they don't autopsy ever death especially if it was in a hospital attended by a physician or in hospice care with oversight by a physician. The coroner is allowed to rely on the opinion of the attending physician and signs the death certificate.

in my IL County, Coroner is an elected position & usually held by a funeral director

no way qualified to perform an autopsy

what State do you live in?

 

[MyBelle]

The Coroner's office are legally required to investigate the cause of any sudden, unusual deaths and every death reported by a physician for inquiry. I take it that the hospital reported her death to be investigated.

"It's wrong for someone who made mistakes on your child to just call the
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jahi-mcmaths-family-faces-monday-life-support-deadline/

From the statements of the family, the hospital and the lawyer we know that Jahi is already considered a case for the coroner. I cannot imagine that in such a high profile case which is already been in court and may end up there again, they would not want to do everything right. There will be an autopsy. MOO.

Every death has to be reported to the coroner by the hospital. But only if the hospital requested an autopsy would one be done at County expense. Instead of requesting an autopsy, Jahi's mother has refused to pull the plug but she has requested the medical records. My assumption is that the family will conduct its own autopsy when the time comes.

Jahi's brain death was pronounced three days after her cardiac arrest and physicians knew the cause. So it doesn't meet the definition of "sudden" or "unexplained." Every death has to have an inquiry by the coroner but the inquiry doesn't have to include an autopsy conducted by the coroner. The coroner's office routinely relies on the attending physician's opinion, as well they should.