Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #47

[possumheart]

When the QPS interviewed TMcH didn't they ask to see her phone and she told them she had deleted material from her iphone and email accounts and also deleted her email accounts altogether.

Respectfully snipped

Now why would she go and do a thing like that?

 

[sosocurious]

There was much electronic data that TMH would have wanted gone for sure.
Call me cynical
When GBC sat on the loo that morning to check his e-mails.
Just maybe there was one from GG wondering if Allison had changed her mind about attending the conference.

 

[Strangeworld]

Respectfully snipped

Now why would she go and do a thing like that?

:floorlaugh:

 

[possumheart]

There was much electronic data that TMH would have wanted gone for sure.
Call me cynical
When GBC sat on the loo that morning to check his e-mails.
Just maybe there was one from GG wondering if Allison had changed her mind about attending the conference.

I suspect that G deleted the contents of T's phone.

If G gave T a camera and, as she said, bought other people things ... What's to bet he gave her an iPhone? What's to bet, as he is good with things like that, which is how he met A ... What's to bet he was administrator on both A and T's iPhones and while he sat on the loo that morning he used find my phone? He would have had two choices available remotely... IF the email address to download apps was his own (one of his own, LOL) for those phones. One choice is to enable the contents of the phone to be deleted the next time it is turned on. The second choice is for the phone to say 'I am lost, call this number (enter number of your choice, remotely). He can see all the phones which he has put apps on using that email address on a map.
MOO
P.s. Doc, I am serious, I have carpal tunnel of the goddam elbow. Any advice? Have I been leaning left for too long? Or do I need to get an automatic? It's on my funnybone, feels awful. Ulnar nerve compression.

 

[DrWatson]

P.s. Doc, I am serious, I have carpal tunnel of the goddam elbow. Any advice? Have I been leaning left for too long? Or do I need to get an automatic? It's on my funnybone, feels awful. Ulnar nerve compression.

Hi Poss I can't comment on whether or not you've been leaning left for too long - I try not to talk politics :drumroll:

Sounds like golfer's elbow - tennis elbow is the other side of the elbow. So either give the golf a rest for a while, or take up golf so you've got something to blame and we can then legit call it golfer's elbow :loveyou:

 

[possumheart]

Hi Poss I can't comment on whether or not you've been leaning left for too long - I try not to talk politics :drumroll:

Sounds like golfer's elbow - tennis elbow is the other side of the elbow. So either give the golf a rest for a while, or take up golf so you've got something to blame and we can then legit call it golfer's elbow :loveyou:

Aha, thanks so much. Golder's elbow it is :blushing:

Now doesn't this sound like our case ... When stories go wrong.

http://www.dreamindemon.com/2013/09...h-niece-willow-long-claims-needed-put-misery/

If Willow was killed Saturday night, as Justin claims, how could she have possibly seen her daughter watching television Sunday morning before she lay down for a nap? When Effingham County State’s Attorney Bryan Kibler was asked about this, he gave a cryptic answer.

“What is a lie is not always clear,” he said

 

[lycheefarmer]

Lycheefarmer, what do you see as the facts for the case? If what we have been discussing on this thread seem way off for you, what do you think is the truth? It always helps if people have differing opinions to put all cards on the table, and not just put down what others believe.

Sorry for my delay in responding to your request "Strangeworld". It's been a busy week on the farm. Lychees wait for no man!

Honestly I don't really know many of the facts, and I suspect neither do the posters on this site. I suspect that I just take a more sceptical view of police, media and family relationships than many on this site. I will have a go. These are really just my jumbled thoughts as I look on from a sceptical distance.

1. Up until this point we have only heard one side of the story - the outline of the case against GBC. This is quite normal with criminal trials. It is up to him whether he ever decides to tell his story I guess...maybe we will never know. That's the way the system works. There doesn't seem to be any regard on this site for the principle of "presumed innocent" that is basic to our legal system - that is a fact. I have never seen a site like this where a person and his family have been so defamed, demonised and villified on the basis of one side of the story before anything has even been tested in court. Although the Courier Mail's treatment of the alleged killer of Daniel Morcom goes close - the coverage yesterday was appalling!

2. The BC family has clearly decided to not seek to argue their case in the media. I have heard that they are intensely private! There is clear contradiction in the attitudes of people on this site towards this decision E.g. Olivia Walton is villified for reading a short statement to the media and criticised for apparently loving the limelight and regarded as an attention-seeker and yet the family is roundly criticised for not telling what they know in the media. Or here's a novel thought - maybe they don't actually know because they weren't involved. Imagine being criticised for not making a public statement about something you know nothing about. How did it go for the Chamberlain family when they decided to trust the media in the early days of their case?

3. In the immediate aftermath of ABC's disappearance we don't know the following;

When she left the house

Who removed GBC's phone from charge (there were 5 people in the house). If indeed the forensic evidence turns out not to be an "error".

Whether the children heard anything on that night

Whether GBC was asleep or not for the duration of the night (if he was how can he establish that? It's the ultimate argument from silence!)

Whether the police statements regarding actions/comments are accurate or will be challenged
(although we do know that the allegations re the Facetime call were untrue and did great damage to the public reputation of the BC family. A clear statement about this was never really publicised in the MSM and I don't recall hearing that the police have apologised to NBC for their "error"). <modsnip>

<modsnip>

I have often wondered how much of GBC's behaviour that posters on this site have labelled suspicious and indicating guilt may actually be odd but quite natural responses in the context of someone who has clearly emotionally left the relationship years before. I also imagine that if I was feeling guilty or chastised about unfaithfulness and if I genuinely feared that my wife had suicided or finally walked out because of my actions than I would have been experiencing a turmoil that made rational decisions highly unlikely. One fact I do not dispute is that clearly his whole life was falling apart!

Some other facts stand out to me;


There was no cause of death established by the autopsy.

Even if the botanical evidence ends up being sustained that does not prove how it got on ABC.

There is not a single piece of evidence placing GBC at the bridge. What was all the talk about the camera on the Kenmore Roundabout? Was that more about creating an illusion of guilt? Seems very strange to me that no evidence of that has ever been produced!

No accomplices have ever been identified (that we know of) and/or been charged.

I trust that the police have followed up on information that may not have suited their very quick assessment of guilt for GBC. It wouldn't be the first time that a crucial lead has been missed due to a particular lense being applied to a potential criminal case.

These are just my quick thoughts. They are not intended to be a complete list. I will probably not reply to comments about them as I don't intend to participate regularly on this forum due to lack of time.

 

[whitechapel]

Honestly I don't really know many of the facts, and I suspect neither do the posters on this site. <respectfully snipped>

Thanks for your input.

The official release of information in the courts has been limited to the minimum needed to successfully deny the two bail applications.

In my personal opinion, the digital footprint (camera surveillance, phone, internet, email and more) of (all) those suspected as being involved will have been forensically examined in detail and will play an important role in the case.

I have been impressed by the in-depth analytical analysis by members of this forum, which has allowed us all to consider the available information in much more detail and with a wider perspective than if we were doing it alone. Thanks to all members for sharing their views, experience and expertise.

Ultimately, as it should be, the courts will decide (won't be long now), and I am looking forward to Justice for Allison.

 

[Strangeworld]

Sorry for my delay in responding to your request "Strangeworld". It's been a busy week on the farm. Lychees wait for no man!

Honestly I don't really know many of the facts, and I suspect neither do the posters on this site. I suspect that I just take a more sceptical view of police, media and family relationships than many on this site. I will have a go. These are really just my jumbled thoughts as I look on from a sceptical distance.

1. Up until this point we have only heard one side of the story - the outline of the case against GBC. This is quite normal with criminal trials. It is up to him whether he ever decides to tell his story I guess...maybe we will never know. That's the way the system works. There doesn't seem to be any regard on this site for the principle of "presumed innocent" that is basic to our legal system - that is a fact. I have never seen a site like this where a person and his family have been so defamed, demonised and villified on the basis of one side of the story before anything has even been tested in court. Although the Courier Mail's treatment of the alleged killer of Daniel Morcom goes close - the coverage yesterday was appalling!

2. The BC family has clearly decided to not seek to argue their case in the media. I have heard that they are intensely private! There is clear contradiction in the attitudes of people on this site towards this decision E.g. Olivia Walton is villified for reading a short statement to the media and criticised for apparently loving the limelight and regarded as an attention-seeker and yet the family is roundly criticised for not telling what they know in the media. Or here's a novel thought - maybe they don't actually know because they weren't involved. Imagine being criticised for not making a public statement about something you know nothing about. How did it go for the Chamberlain family when they decided to trust the media in the early days of their case?

3. In the immediate aftermath of ABC's disappearance we don't know the following;

When she left the house

Who removed GBC's phone from charge (there were 5 people in the house). If indeed the forensic evidence turns out not to be an "error".

Whether the children heard anything on that night

Whether GBC was asleep or not for the duration of the night (if he was how can he establish that? It's the ultimate argument from silence!)

Whether the police statements regarding actions/comments are accurate or will be challenged
(although we do know that the allegations re the Facetime call were untrue and did great damage to the public reputation of the BC family. A clear statement about this was never really publicised in the MSM and I don't recall hearing that the police have apologised to NBC for their "error"). <modsnip>


<modsnip>.

I have often wondered how much of GBC's behaviour that posters on this site have labelled suspicious and indicating guilt may actually be odd but quite natural responses in the context of someone who has clearly emotionally left the relationship years before. I also imagine that if I was feeling guilty or chastised about unfaithfulness and if I genuinely feared that my wife had suicided or finally walked out because of my actions than I would have been experiencing a turmoil that made rational decisions highly unlikely. One fact I do not dispute is that clearly his whole life was falling apart!

Some other facts stand out to me;


There was no cause of death established by the autopsy.

Even if the botanical evidence ends up being sustained that does not prove how it got on ABC.

There is not a single piece of evidence placing GBC at the bridge. What was all the talk about the camera on the Kenmore Roundabout? Was that more about creating an illusion of guilt? Seems very strange to me that no evidence of that has ever been produced!

No accomplices have ever been identified (that we know of) and/or been charged.

I trust that the police have followed up on information that may not have suited their very quick assessment of guilt for GBC. It wouldn't be the first time that a crucial lead has been missed due to a particular lense being applied to a potential criminal case.

These are just my quick thoughts. They are not intended to be a complete list. I will probably not reply to comments about them as I don't intend to participate regularly on this forum due to lack of time.

Thanks lycheefarmer for your response. Much appreciated. I disagree with what you have said, particularly in relation to the cooperation aspect of GBC and the family regarding statements, but that's the nature of WS :seeya:

 

[possumheart]

Respectful snipped

... the sceptic in me wonders why the police would distort the truth in such a serious way. Unless of course careers were on the line or there was a Masonic coverup happening ...

I trust that the police have followed up on information that may not have suited their very quick assessment of guilt for GBC. It wouldn't be the first time that a crucial lead has been missed due to a particular lense being applied to a potential criminal case.

This has been a very high profile case from day one. I acknowledge that lack of resources and pressure from above for closure have a propensity to taint cases, this is not my perception of this case until I see evidence otherwise. The Baden-clay family had the highest support and assurance possible.

Premier Campbell Newman said the government was prepared to help police in any way it could in the search.
"Of course the government is prepared to do everything it can to assist the (police) commissioner, his office, and the SES to help sort out what's gone on here," Mr Newman told reporters on Saturday.
"I'm very sad for the family and friends. Obviously, it's incredibly distressing."
He said it had been appropriate for local state member Bruce Flegg to meet the family on Friday.
"I know he is a very caring man and he wanted to show his support and see if he could do anything for the family," Mr Newman said.

Baden-Clay hired a lawyer on Friday.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2012/10/10/09/41/search-for-missing-brisbane-mum-continues

Thank you for the opportunity to reconsider some of my perceptions. Please correct me if the state member also met with the Dickie family.

 

[Couldbe]

I did not personally know Allison, GBC, their children ... nor either of their Parents or families; nor have a friend (like yourself) who can speak for the BC family.
.... I entered these discussions with an open mind on the circumstances surrounding this crime.
.... I believe that you (through your connection with a friend, and your distrust of the police) are supporting a bias towards the innocence of GBC and any involvement of his family.

Lycheefarmer, you say:
"Honestly I don't really know many of the facts, and I suspect neither do the posters on this site. I suspect that I just take a more sceptical view of police, media and family relationships than many on this site."

I say: .... If I was an actual witness in this case, I certainly wouldn't be elaborating on those critical facts on here.

You also say:
<modsnip>

"The BC family has clearly decided to not seek to argue their case in the media. I have heard that they are intensely private! There is clear contradiction in the attitudes of people on this site towards this decision E.g. Olivia Walton is villified for reading a short statement to the media and criticised for apparently loving the limelight and regarded as an attention-seeker and yet the family is roundly criticised for not telling what they know in the media. Or here's a novel thought - maybe they don't actually know because they weren't involved. Imagine being criticised for not making a public statement about something you know nothing about."

I say: For whatever reason, GBC and his family tried to hide away from the Media in their home, GBC saying that he had three small children to look after. At that early stage, when everyone was searching to find Allison alive (or her body) .... that was a prime opportunity for GBC to make an appeal to everyone, through the media, to help find Allison (plenty of family support there). Who would have stopped him?
.... He surely should have had a strong enough belief in his 'innocence' and could face up to strangers and tell them so.
.... His parents, as mature and worldly, and successful in business and dealing with the public - seem to have left it Olivia to try and handle things.
.... Olivia seemed to bumble around giving explanations for things the true facts of which she obviously didn't have a good grasp of either.

(Quote from bail docs) - Lawfully intercepted telephone calls on one of the defendants phone lines supports that the defendant used his parents to assist him in covertly contacting TMH on his behalf.
Not quite sure why they would have done this!

You say:-
"In the immediate aftermath of ABC's disappearance we don't know the following;
When she left the house
Who removed GBC's phone from charge (there were 5 people in the house). If indeed the forensic evidence turns out not to be an "error".
Whether the children heard anything on that night
Whether GBC was asleep or not for the duration of the night (if he was how can he establish that? It's the ultimate argument from silence!)
Whether the police statements regarding actions/comments are accurate or will be challenged"

.... You are quite right - there are many facts that we are not privy to, but I believe answers to some of your questions will be revealed during the trial.

You say: "One fact I do not dispute is that clearly his whole life was falling apart!"

.... Serious financial pressure was needing a solution. Attempts to secure more loans from friends, family and acquaintenances had failed him.
.... Requests for access to Superannuation may not have been granted either.
.... Another solution to the financial crisis would have to be investigated; and is most likely still in abeyance.

Another fact that you would not dispute is that Allison was trying very hard to get her marriage back on track (GBC also said in the transcript of his interview with Detectives, that he had wanted to try hard to make his marriage work). However it is a fact that there were three of them in it, and deceit (lack of trust) on his part wasn't one of the required ingredients.

Lycheefarmer ..... if you have managed to get back here and see this post ..... hope your crop of lychees make it my way .... love them!
I respect that you have your own opinions and a 'healthy scepticism'. We on Websleuths have gone through the complete gamut of emotions as the information on Allison emerged. Of course, nowhere near the level of Allisons family .... or GBC himself and his family.
NOWHERE NEAR OVER YET NOR EVER!

 

[DrWatson]

Who removed GBC's phone from charge (there were 5 people in the house). If indeed the forensic evidence turns out not to be an "error".
Whether the children heard anything on that night

Just on those points - you're assuming that the girls WERE home that night. I've heard people say they were, and people say they weren't. A very good friend, who was one of Allison's very good friends, is adamant that they were round at the BC Seniors' place for a sleepover with their cousins, and that Olivia brought them round in the morning to get ready for school which is just over the road from the house.

So your assumption that "there were 5 people in the house that night" may not be correct. And if Allison had already been murdered by the time the phone got taken off, and more importantly, put back on the charger, then that leaves just one.

Bottom line is we really don't know if the girls were home that night - I tend to think they weren't. If we have neighbours of GBC and Allison testifying they heard screams, you'd think that the girls would have quite a story to tell.

We may find out more about that this week with the possible evidence from the girls - may be presented to the judge on the 24th - Monday.

 

[Elspeth]

Just on those points - you're assuming that the girls WERE home that night. I've heard people say they were, and people say they weren't. A very good friend, who was one of Allison's very good friends, is adamant that they were round at the BC Seniors' place for a sleepover with their cousins, and that Olivia brought them round in the morning to get ready for school which is just over the road from the house.

So your assumption that "there were 5 people in the house that night" may not be correct. And if Allison had already been murdered by the time the phone got taken off, and more importantly, put back on the charger, then that leaves just one.

Bottom line is we really don't know if the girls were home that night - I tend to think they weren't. If we have neighbours of GBC and Allison testifying they heard screams, you'd think that the girls would have quite a story to tell.

We may find out more about that this week with the possible evidence from the girls - may be presented to the judge on the 24th - Monday.

I don't think the girls were home that night...certainly not earlier in the night anyway...I recall in a witness statement of TMcH where she had rung GBC between 5 and 5.30pm ?and he was buying sausages for a barbecue as the girls were at his parents house ...TMcH said she had continued speaking with him and when he arrived someone told him the girls were in the pool...If this time is accurate by the time they came out of the pool and had the barbecue, the time would have to be well after 7pm...so I guess it would depend if someone collected them after this...

 

[ozazure]

Didn't Allison tell the hairdresser she had the night off? I feel the girls weren't there and any confusion arises from the fact they were brought back in the morning before school.

(hit enter too soon)

And the likely alibi lie he told in his text messages - that probably causes some confusion too. He knew from the moment he sent those he'd be needing the kids and his family to lie. If not pre-arranged with them.

 

[Seeking]

Didn't Allison tell the hairdresser she had the night off? I feel the girls weren't there and any confusion arises from the fact they were brought back in the morning before school.

(hit enter too soon)

And the likely alibi lie he told in his text messages - that probably causes some confusion too. He knew from the moment he sent those he'd be needing the kids and his family to lie. If not pre-arranged with them.

If there is proof that the girls definitely did not sleep at home the night Alison went missing, then the texts GBC sent in the morning to Alison suggesting that the children were up, lunches made etc. can easily be proven to be manipulative lies. All my humble opinion.

 

[ozazure]

If there is proof that the girls definitely did not sleep at home the night Alison went missing, then the texts GBC sent in the morning to Alison suggesting that the children were up, lunches made etc. can easily be proven to be manipulative lies. All my humble opinion.

fingers crossed! Hopefully the statement to the hairdresser went beyond having the night off and she told her the girls were staying overnight too, which will add to the weight of the friend's statement and whatever Toni might have said on record. From the sounds of it the girls made unofficial statements that morning too about their whereabouts. He really was used to his lies being accepted to think that he could get away with this kind of sloppy alibi building. I think the changing initial story was a result of this fast and easy lying, maybe he saw the WTF in the police's eyes when he supposedly slept through her not returning from a night walk and switched it up to an early morning one. Will be very interesting to see all these details teased out.

 

[Couldbe]

Didn't Allison tell the hairdresser she had the night off? I feel the girls weren't there and any confusion arises from the fact they were brought back in the morning before school.

(hit enter too soon)

And the likely alibi lie he told in his text messages - that probably causes some confusion too. He knew from the moment he sent those he'd be needing the kids and his family to lie. If not pre-arranged with them.

With the children attending school that morning, the Police would surely have been very interested in anything that they may have said to their teachers. In view of the activities that morning (Police arrived when Olivia was escorting them down the stairs to take them there) they would have displayed some concern at school; causing the teachers to ask some questions; to which they would have been given answers.
The Police, upon interviewing at school, would have been alerted very early on to any contradictions. Hence, more reason for the early declaring the home as a crime scene! JMO

 

[Fuskier]

fingers crossed! <respectfully snipped>

He really was used to his lies being accepted to think that he could get away with this kind of sloppy alibi building. I think the changing initial story was a result of this fast and easy lying, maybe he saw the WTF in the police's eyes when he supposedly slept through her not returning from a night walk and switched it up to an early morning one. Will be very interesting to see all these details teased out.

Agreed. hoh: :waitasec: Tell it to the Judge :judge:

 

[Mountain Misst]

'Recording of evidence' is in my diary as being the next event - tomorrow 24th Feb. Is this just a legal pow wow with the magistrate?

 

[Couldbe]

Lycheefarmer, you stated: "There is not a single piece of evidence placing GBC at the bridge. What was all the talk about the camera on the Kenmore Roundabout?"
In response: the following has been reported:

'Among the dozens of affidavits gathered as part of the police investigation into the murder of Mrs Baden-Clay and released in the wake of Mr Baden-Clay's second failed bail application Friday, was one from Mr Flegg who gave a statement to police on May 6.'

"Mr Flegg said that a couple of days before he gave his May statement:
"I do remember that he called me a couple of days ago and asked me about the media report about the Kenmore roundabout and whether there is a camera there. I am not sure even now if there was a camera there.
"I told him I didn't know and could ask, I have not since asked or looked at all, and have not spoken to him about it since."
Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...r-for-money-20121215-2bgji.html#ixzz2u6sPWonP

JMO:
1. The Police would have been able to check CCTV cameras at the intersection of the Western Freeway and Moggill Road at Indooroopilly, and establish if any particular vehicles of interest travelled through there ... in relation to the timeframe they were observing.

If they discovered that a particular vehicle of interest had continued on to the roundabout (recorded in the CCTV camera), there may have been evidence of another vehicle of interest at the roundabout 'around' the same time; prompting them to look at whether both vehicles were seen to return through the roundabout at a later time (or maybe only one of them)..... my point being that if one of the drivers was GBC, he may have returned to his residence via Rafting Ground Rd; while the other driver returned through the Kenmore roundabout to go home.


.... In addition to this possibility, the CCTV cameras at the intersection of the Western Freeway and Moggill Road at Indooroopilly may not have provided anything of interest, BUT

2. At that Kenmore roundabout, there are two entrances to the parking areas for the shopping centre. It may be that two vehicles were seen on the CCTV camera there (one arriving earlier than the other) had parked in there, and then when the other vehicle arrived, it momentarily stopped at the roundabout (while travelling through it) to pick up the driver of the other vehicle....hence the timing by Police of negotiating the roundabout ... with/without stopping to pick up someone who may have been waiting there.
....... if there was evidence of a vehicle stopping to pick up someone, then that other person could be implicated;
....... if there was no evidence of a vehicle stopping to pick up someone, then implication of that other person may not be so easy.

....... this same aspect could apply on a return trip through the same roundabout, when the other driver alighted to drive back home in their vehicle which had been parked in the shopping area.