Trial Discussion Thread #10 - 14.03.19, Day 13

[james83]

A close neighbour and a very good friend of OP prob. will be a defense witness..
Christo Menelaou the guy who supposedly lent the ladder to OP..

http://drum.co.za/celebs/hes-heartbroken/

AT EIGHT minutes past three on the morning of Valentine’s Day Christo Menelaou woke with a start. He’d heard what sounded like three thunderclaps.

At his home in the Silver Woods Estate east of Pretoria he lay in bed waiting for the rain to start.

Almost an hour later he went to the bathroom.

When he opened the window and looked outside he couldn’t believe his eyes. His window looks out onto an empty plot and Olympic and Paralympic athlete Oscar Pistorius’ house.

The two men are close friends.

“His house used to be in pitch darkness at night, except for one light that was always on,” Christo (34) says. But that night all the lights were on and there were blue and red lights flashing outside the house.

..........

http://andrewazzopardi.org/2013/05/20/last-oscar-pistorius-love-pic-the-sun/

Christo, 34, added: “He cries a lot and says over and over, ‘I’m sorry.

.............

You Magazine 02 May 2013

View attachment 42117

3.08?, where does that fit in with events??????????????.

 

[Val1]

I wonder why the security guards didn't mention that other, Wednesday, call out in their evidence?

Did I not read somewhere that the head security guard got sacked shortly after the arrest? Smells like cover up to me, just like the old charges being suddenly re-instated just before the bail hearing against a certain police officer that had been dropped a year before.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

I enlarged the pic as big as I could on my ipad here - it was blurry but there did not seem to be any traces of creases behind the knees. A giveaway that jeans have been worn. Seems kind of odd though, that anyone would wash jeans with the belt still in the loops. Or is that just me?

It may actually be possible to find a picture of Reeva wearing those jeans, with a bit of searching. I will have a try later when I have a bit more time.

ETA Stretch jeans may not crease much after one wearing?

Good point.. I don't think that the jeans were washed with the belt and also if it was hang in bedroom balcony it would fall straight on the ground very farfetched to think that it would turn the corner and end up under the bathroom window..

 

[Val1]

3.08?, where does that fit in with events??????????????.

Perhaps it's explained in OP's own words in that attachment?

I'm sorry and grateful for everything you're doing.

 

[katydid23]

Hello Everyone

I've been reading and listening when I can, work takes it's toll on my trial listening life. I too was curious about the blood on the wall.

IMO is Roux is good at building bird cages in the sky and hoping the judge goes to live in one. Just came across a story with a link, sharing.

Thanks for the trial updates, yes I was reading.

________________________________________

Whats in the news here in the U.S.

Pretoria (AFP) - Oscar Pistorius shot his girlfriend first in the hip before hitting her fatally in the head through a locked toilet door, a police ballistics expert testified Wednesday at the Paralympian's murder trial in South Africa.

The ballistics report appears to support earlier testimony that Reeva Steenkamp had time to cry for help before she died and contradicts the defence team's version that she could not have screamed.

"The best probable explanation is the deceased was initially upright behind the closed door, she sustained a penetrating wound in the right side of the hip," the ballistics expert, Captain Chris Mangena, told the court.

More explanation at the link

http://news.yahoo.com/ballistics-expert-reconstructs-steenkamps-dying-moments-111557911.html

BBM

Ha....LOVE the way you worded that. So accurate and well said. Thanks. lol

 

[SMK]

I'm not sure if this has been posted already, but it makes interesting reading. Note it was written in 2011

Oscar Pistorius - Hero or Hooligan?

An extract:

There are a number of questions that have been left in our minds as a result of our unfortunate encounter with Oscar. Firstly, if he is such a ‘hero’ why was his default position one of extreme profanity, arrogance and disregard – even contempt - for others. Secondly, why did he believe being drunk excused his disgusting behaviour. Finally and I believe probably the most serious indictment against him from my perspective was related to why he felt the need to be abusive to women.

Wow, thanks for this great find! It is both illuminating and prophetic! :star:

 

[anagrammy]

One other thing I would like to see explained - the damage that reportedly left gashes in OP's legs, with the 'skin' surface torn off and pure white revealed beneath.

Me, too! Cricket bat?

 

[Cher352]

Did I not read somewhere that the head security guard got sacked shortly after the arrest? Smells like cover up to me, just like the old charges being suddenly re-instated just before the bail hearing against a certain police officer that had been dropped a year before.

IIRC..When he testified he said it was his "last day" working there.
Neither side that I remember questioned him as to whether he quit or was fired.

 

[steveml]

What about these facts aren't convincing?

• Four witnesses were awakened in the middle of the night and heard a man and woman arguing, terrified screaming followed by gunshots, ending in silence.
• OP admitted to firing four shots and killing a woman in his home at the exact time the witnesses heard the screaming and gunshots.
• OP's explanation is that witnesses did not hear the ACTUAL crime, but only heard him making noises that coincidentally replicated the sounds of the crime they didn't really hear.
• The security guard, Pieter Baba, called OP's house after it was reported shots came from the house. OP told Baba "everything's ok" and didn't tell Baba to call police or an ambulance.
• Neither OP or his friends who knew about the shooting called the police. They instructed Baba to call the police only after Baba showed up at OP's house in spite of OP telling him everything was ok.
• According to OP the shooting was caused by the ordinary event of RS getting up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom.

State has prima facie case for premeditated murder. OP must now provide evidence and convince the judge that shooting RS was not a violation of SA criminal code.

I can see your reasoning, but you can't win a case just by saying 'we clearly have a case for premeditated murder, therefore we do not require any further evidence'. Past case history tells us this is usually not sufficient. I feel that OP has done enough irresponsible damage to deserve a very long incarceration. I'm also not convinced that this was an accident. My comments are purely related towards the quality of the evidence presented since the ear-witness statements. Hence my reasoning that I don't feel we're much further than we were in the initial couple of days.

The first three points that you mentioned above rely precisely on the ear-witness statements, which reinforce my initial comment..'my current feeling towards the case is that we're not much further than we were after hearing the initial ear-witness statements.
The last point mentioned above refers to OP's statement, and regardless of whether we feel that he's lying or not, it remains circumstantial, and deserves to be proven one way or the other, otherwise we again are only relying on ear-witness testimony.

That leaves us with the remaining two points regarding OP's failure to call an ambulance. If we can prove what happened in the house, we can then go on to suggest that these actions were an attempt to deceive. If we can't it ends up as speculation. I'd rather have evidence to secure a prosecution, every time.

Despite feeling that OP should be charged accordingly for the killing, which many of us do, what extra evidence have we seen since the first few witnesses that help us to pull apart OP's story? I'm sure you must concede that we've seen very little.

 

[Interested Bystander]

3.08?, where does that fit in with events??????????????.

Probably means another problem with time pieces. Perhaps his watch/clock was slow.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Just to confirm you can not delete individual items from the history of an ipad, you can however delete a day's worth of history, so in other words we can say for sure that there is nothing dodgy/incriminating from the Ipad that has been deleted on the 13th since there is history on the 13th, but if the Ipad was used from midnight onwards that is of course a different day and could well have been deleted.
I can't believe we have heard the last of it, the ipad stuff today was pointless for the prosecution if we have.

Google for how to wipe an Ipad's history. Lots of input some better than others it seems.

Here is one but depending whether you put wipe or clear history brings up lots of options. No doubt something is left somewhere, isn't it always!

http://www.wikihow.com/Clear-the-History-on-an-iPad

 

[minor4th]

3.08?, where does that fit in with events??????????????.

Gunshots that killed Reeva

 

[katydid23]

My current feeling towards the case is that we're not much further than we were after hearing the initial ear-witness statements.

I'm not really seeing a convincing picture being built of a fracas between Reeva and OP, other than the initial testimony of the neighbours, and there
aren't many points that you can tick off against OP's original statement that are in conflict with his version of events.

I'm sure there's plenty more to be heard yet, but that's where I'm at for the moment.

I am not sure that the' fracas or no fracas' is the real issue here. I think it boils down to the believability that 1, he didn't bother to look and see where Reeva was before firing, and 2, that she didn't scream STOP after the first bullet hit her thigh. I think those are the issues that the defense has to grapple with, to walk away from this tragedy. imo :moo:

 

[BritsKate]

Just to make sure everyone is on the same page: When medical people refer to the right side or the left side of a patient, this is from the perspective of the patient himself.

So when placing Reeva in the toilet, keep in mind the right hip injury was HER right side.
-----------------------------------------------

I am a bit surprised there were NO footprints what with all that blood inside that toilet room. So does that mean he did not get next to her body in there and attempt to lift her, but rather he what? Dragged her out by her legs?

-----------------------------------------------

Re: Blood spatter on wall above headboard. I'm pretty sure Prosecution has no general obligation, unless asked by Defense, to explain what they did NOT find, only what they did find that is relevant. Otherwise, it could take days to say what all was not found. Maybe Roux will want to explain whose blood it is and why it is there?

I don't know the rules of court on what all Prosecution is allowed to submit into evidence. They also submitted the photos of the bedroom door with the holes and the damaged bottom panel but have made no further explanation for that.

RBBM

I believe that's exactly what occurred. I think he dragged her just enough to get her out of the toilet and then picked her up. To me, looking at the crime scene photos, there is a massive pool of blood right by the toilet; followed by what appears to be a blood 'swipe' (as if its her hair); and then there's another pool of blood right by the toilet doorway. I've wondered if the smaller pool - down lower - could have been from one of the other injuries. First pic shows the swipe; second shows the pooled blood by the door. Apologies for the graphic nature.

http://resources2.news.com.au/image...d-bathroom-where-reeva-steenkamp-was-shot.jpg

http://static1.businessinsider.com/...20-/screen shot 2013-05-31 at 11.12.24 am.png

 

[minor4th]

A close neighbour and a very good friend of OP prob. will be a defense witness..
Christo Menelaou the guy who supposedly lent the ladder to OP..

http://drum.co.za/celebs/hes-heartbroken/

AT EIGHT minutes past three on the morning of Valentine’s Day Christo Menelaou woke with a start. He’d heard what sounded like three thunderclaps.

At his home in the Silver Woods Estate east of Pretoria he lay in bed waiting for the rain to start.

Almost an hour later he went to the bathroom.

When he opened the window and looked outside he couldn’t believe his eyes. His window looks out onto an empty plot and Olympic and Paralympic athlete Oscar Pistorius’ house.

The two men are close friends.

“His house used to be in pitch darkness at night, except for one light that was always on,” Christo (34) says. But that night all the lights were on and there were blue and red lights flashing outside the house.

..........

http://andrewazzopardi.org/2013/05/20/last-oscar-pistorius-love-pic-the-sun/

Christo, 34, added: “He cries a lot and says over and over, ‘I’m sorry.

.............

You Magazine 02 May 2013

View attachment 42117

That is such a cute picture from the article! (But 4 days before her death )

 

[minor4th]

My current feeling towards the case is that we're not much further than we were after hearing the initial ear-witness statements.

I'm not really seeing a convincing picture being built of a fracas between Reeva and OP, other than the initial testimony of the neighbours, and there
aren't many points that you can tick off against OP's original statement that are in conflict with his version of events.

I'm sure there's plenty more to be heard yet, but that's where I'm at for the moment.

I agree with this. There has only been speculation about an argument between them, and that is not enough IMO

 

[steveml]

I am not sure that the' fracas or no fracas' is the real issue here. I think it boils down to the believability that 1, he didn't bother to look and see where Reeva was before firing, and 2, that she didn't scream STOP after the first bullet hit her thigh. I think those are the issues that the defense has to grapple with, to walk away from this tragedy. imo :moo:

If the case boils down to simple believability then Nel needn't have called any witnesses. He would just rely on an emotion based testimony. One cannot claim that a person intended to shoot someone else, without some form of culpability. The judge will convict or acquit based on law, not on emotion.

 

[katydid23]

If the case boils down to simple believability then Nel needn't have called any witnesses. He would just rely on an emotion based testimony. One cannot claim that a person intended to shoot someone else, without some form of culpability. The judge will convict or acquit based on law, not on emotion.

Believability is not based entirely upon emotion, imo. I am basing it upon common sense. If I hear scary noises in the middle of the night, the FIRST thing I do is check where my husband and kids are, to make sure it is not them making the noise. That is basic common sense, not emotion based.

And IF I accidentally began shooting one of my family members, I assume they would begin screaming out in pain and fear, and would not be totally silent, as OP would like us to believe. Again, common sense, not emotionally based, imo.

I don't have to believe with certainty that they fought loudly that night, to believe he is lying when he gives us that ridiculous story of phantom intruders.It could have happened differently. Maybe she went to use the bathroom and he grabbed her cell, to see who was texting her? And he saw something that angered him and went after her?

 

[Val1]

Probably means another problem with time pieces. Perhaps his watch/clock was slow.

It could even have been a warning first shot by perhaps the airgun(wonder if you can tell when it was fired last?) leading to RS locking herself in the toilet room and trying to attract attention by waving her jeans out the window. Then the door being beaten with the bat and when that didn't work to get her out of the toilet room the need arose to shut her up asap and then count on "I always win" to take care of the mess. But yea, maybe it was just slow... :banghead:

 

[minor4th]

Shows OP lied about his story about going back and screaming out the window then putting on his prosthetic legs before returning to break down the door and pull RS out of the toilet area.

He hit the door with the bat and pulled RS out on his stumps just like the police demonstrated with the cricket bat. If he would have went back to put on his prosthetic legs he would have left footprints in the toilet area near the body. OP left no footprints in the blood in the bathroom.

This explains the blood in the bedroom. He went back into the bedroom after dragging RS out of the toilet area. It also explains the pools of blood in the bathroom outside the toilet area. He pulled her out of the toilet area on his stumps, left her there and called Stander instead of the police or an ambulance.

What reason could he possibly have for lying about putting his prostheses on before attempting to kick down the door and then breaking it through with a cricket bat?

I don't think your conclusion flows from the "no evidence of footprints" - his prosthetics had socks on them and it's probably that Reeva's body being dragged would obstruct any clear sock prints.