Trial Discussion Thread #19 - 14.04.07, Day 17

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BBM: Yes, one could say that. But, I submit to you, that's not why Nel put that picture into evidence.

And, I guess we can change relevance of it from being murder-day damage (as people had been saying...) to evidence that OP must not have been THAT afraid of intruders. And I suppose you can make the stretch that because OP didn't seal up his house like a maximum security prison with bars on the windows and barbed wire and Rottweilers that he must not have been THAT paranoid. Or that he didn't get a broken window fixed the very same day it broke as further evidence. But it is, I say, a stretch.

I had said that Nel had put such photos up to put an idea in people's and the judges' heads. That's all it takes, one picture, and people can fill in the blanks for themselves. I'd speculated that he either didn't know if there was a reasonable explanation for them and put them up anyway or he didn't know and didn't bother to find out. But if Nel knew there was a window pane in the garage then he must have known there's a good chance it was for the broken window and that it wasn't related to the murder. That's just blatant.

And I would disagree. The defense's case has been that OP was deathly afraid of intruders breaking into his home to kill him or cause harm to him. Why else would Roux have OP go through his life story today making sure to note all of the times that OP has reason to be fearful of others? I feel sure that Nel knew that the defense and OP would use those things in their defense, after all OP is claiming that he thought it was an intruder and that he knew of the statistics of crime in SA. Nel simply entered into evidence a picture of a broken window on the ground floor that casts doubt onto OP's claims of fear of intruders.

As soon as Nel is allowed to cross examine OP I am sure that he will address the broken window and why he admitted that picture into evidence. I also feel sure that Nel will say something to the effect of it showing that OP was not as afraid of an intruder as he has claimed as well.

During the cross examine, we will see why Nel entered it in as evidence.

MOO
 
I'm unclear on how posting a politically left website (Mother Jones, not an MSM article related to this case) insisting Paul Ryan is secretly saying racist things without actually saying them clears anything up.

The word 'urban' does not men black.

The word 'culture' does not mean black.

Unless Mother Jones insists it's racially loaded rhetoric. Then it is so. :banghead:

Let me clarify the beginning of this conversation. I made the point that OP/Roux needed to be cautious, so that the judge would not be put off, by his hyping the constant crime and fear in SA. And I said that because I worked in South Central LA, and it was often said by locals there, that whites missed the point entirely, and hyperinflated and misconstrued the crime statistics, in a biased and insensitive manner.
 
A broken ground floor window, balcony sliding doors left open, ladder left on the ground under/near said open doors, NO security bars across any windows, panic button unused, telling security when they call "everything is fine".........that does not add up to someone being afraid of an intruder coming into their home.
~snipped~

BBM - actually it shows someone extremely casual about security! It's always his actions that overrule his words. I hope Nel quizzes him on this to within an inch of his life. After all, he's the most important witness and should be questioned on all of these contradictory actions that negate his 'paranoid' fear of intruders. He may as well have put a WELCOME mat outside with arrows up to the open doors.
 
Yes, that was his first celebrity. Then in Peru he murdered the daughter of one of the nation's sporting heros, I don't remember exactly but maybe a championship winning racing driver is her father.

Last I heard of Joran was that he married and has a child and he is addicted to drugs. He will be extradited to the US after his 28 year prison term is served in full.

Oh, I thought you meant he was a sportsman or a TV personality or something like that. Just famous for being a murdering , OK.
 
From OP's bail application statement:

"I am acutely aware of violent crime being committed by intruders entering homes with a view to commit crime, including violent crime. I have received death threats before. I have also been a victim of violence and of burglaries before. For that reason I kept my firearm, a 9 mm Parabellum, underneath my bed when I went to bed at night.

I felt a sense of terror rushing over me. There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside. Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps.

It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet. I thought he or they must have entered through the unprotected window. As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself. I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger. I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps."


The parts that I have quoted directly from OP's bail application statement told Nel where the defense was going to go with their defense. The downstairs broken window shows that OP was not as afraid of intruders as he claims. Nel then in turn entered into evidence the picture of the broken downstairs window in order to bring that up to OP if/when OP took the stand. As a lawyer for the State, Nel would not have been doing his job if he did not enter that picture into evidence. It goes to show that OP is lying in regards to his fear of intruders.

link for bail application statement:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/210201629/Oscar-Pistorius-Bail-Application-Statement

MOO
 
Actually, your post a few pages back stated that people are using 'code words' and being racist by proxy. Code words imply that some secret handbook or list is being passed around with the secret code so that people can purposely say racist things publicly and get away with it. Unless someone can turn up a msm article with proof of this racial code word documentation, such comments should not be stated as fact of representation of certain people, political groups, or areas of the country, IMO.


You again just misrepresented or misunderstood what I said. I believe we are just on parallel wavelengths and it will not be resolved with you admonishing me. This is the last I will discuss the topic.

:banghead:
 
Oh, I thought you meant he was a sportsman or a TV personality or something like that. Just famous for being a murdering , OK.

Well his father was a lawyer and a wealthy one at that. Many suspect that was part of the reason why nothing came of his possible involvement in Natalie's death/disappearance.
 
And I would disagree. The defense's case has been that OP was deathly afraid of intruders breaking into his home to kill him or cause harm to him. Why else would Roux have OP go through his life story today making sure to note all of the times that OP has reason to be fearful of others? I feel sure that Nel knew that the defense and OP would use those things in their defense, after all OP is claiming that he thought it was an intruder and that he knew of the statistics of crime in SA. Nel simply entered into evidence a picture of a broken window on the ground floor that casts doubt onto OP's claims of fear of intruders.

As soon as Nel is allowed to cross examine OP I am sure that he will address the broken window and why he admitted that picture into evidence. I also feel sure that Nel will say something to the effect of it showing that OP was not as afraid of an intruder as he has claimed as well.

During the cross examine, we will see why Nel entered it in as evidence.

MOO

Hey, maybe Nel will choose to go there, now that there's an explanation for the window.


And if that's the case, then it's pretty flimsy. OP's entire story doesn't unravel because he didn't get broke window fixed right away...
 
Hey, maybe Nel will choose to go there, now that there's an explanation for the window.


And if that's the case, then it's pretty flimsy. OP's entire story doesn't unravel because he didn't get broke window fixed right away...

No but added into the long list of other things that do not add up in OP's story it makes a complete picture.

I see that in order to believe OP's story bits and pieces are taken out and explained away. However when looked at as a whole, the story simply falls apart. That will be OP's downfall IMO. The judge is not going to take things bit by bit but as a whole. If this was a jury trial then OP might stand a chance of walking. I don't see how the defense pandering to the judge will work in their favor.

MOO
 
BBM: Yes, one could say that. But, I submit to you, that's not why Nel put that picture into evidence.

And, I guess we can change relevance of it from being murder-day damage (as people had been saying...) to evidence that OP must not have been THAT afraid of intruders. And I suppose you can make the stretch that because OP didn't seal up his house like a maximum security prison with bars on the windows and barbed wire and Rottweilers that he must not have been THAT paranoid. Or that he didn't get a broken window fixed the very same day it broke as further evidence. But it is, I say, a stretch.

I had said that Nel had put such photos up to put an idea in people's and the judges' heads. That's all it takes, one picture, and people can fill in the blanks for themselves. I'd speculated that he either didn't know if there was a reasonable explanation for them and put them up anyway or he didn't know and didn't bother to find out. But if Nel knew there was a window pane in the garage then he must have known there's a good chance it was for the broken window and that it wasn't related to the murder. That's just blatant.

I think many people wanted the broken window to be important.

The reality is, it isn't. I let it go when it wasn't brought up in prosecution.

I'm also assuming the air-rifle has nothing to do with the case.

If the air-rifle was involved in the case it would certainly have been examined as an exhibit by an expert witness (ballistics) when prosecution had their opportunity.
 
I'm still laughing about the professor's testimony! Was he really a witness for the Defense? :floorlaugh:

The remaining "experts" are probably peeing themselves right now. JMO :wink:
 
No but added into the long list of other things that do not add up in OP's story it makes a complete picture.

I see that in order to believe OP's story bits and pieces are taken out and explained away. However when looked at as a whole, the story simply falls apart. That will be OP's downfall IMO. The judge is not going to take things bit by bit but as a whole. If this was a jury trial then OP might stand a chance of walking. I don't see how the defense pandering to the judge will work in their favor.

MOO
Yep. Nothing is going to be taken in isolation. Why would it be? It's all the things together that point to OP not being as security conscious as he should have been if he expects the judge to believe he lived in constant fear. And if he lived in constant fear, that's because anyone could have got into the house thanks to him!
 
I get the feeling Nel is going to make a point of highlighting Reeva's importance on this planet to counter most of OP's long yarn about his life or at least I hope he does.
 
From OP's bail application statement:

"I am acutely aware of violent crime being committed by intruders entering homes with a view to commit crime, including violent crime. I have received death threats before. I have also been a victim of violence and of burglaries before. For that reason I kept my firearm, a 9 mm Parabellum, underneath my bed when I went to bed at night.

I felt a sense of terror rushing over me. There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside. Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps.

It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet. I thought he or they must have entered through the unprotected window. As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself. I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger. I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps."


The parts that I have quoted directly from OP's bail application statement told Nel where the defense was going to go with their defense. The downstairs broken window shows that OP was not as afraid of intruders as he claims. Nel then in turn entered into evidence the picture of the broken downstairs window in order to bring that up to OP if/when OP took the stand. As a lawyer for the State, Nel would not have been doing his job if he did not enter that picture into evidence. It goes to show that OP is lying in regards to his fear of intruders.

link for bail application statement:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/210201629/Oscar-Pistorius-Bail-Application-Statement

MOO

Yeah, I don't think not getting a window fixed right away is evidence of lying. Just don't. I need more than that, and so far we have more evidence than not that he had issues with feeling safe. Who knows, maybe the window had been broken for only a couple days and his contractor could only get it done on the 14th or 15th?

That may be evidence of procrastination, but not that he's lying about his own fears, of which there is evidence he has. My MIL is a very paranoid woman. She's an old Polish woman so it's kind of cultural. But she is the most cautiously fearful person I have ever known. Can't feed my daughter gluten around her, she freaks out, always looking outside, making sure nothing's going on. What, I don't know. Keeps pepper spray all over the house since she lives alone. But she doesn't have bars up all over the house, no guard dogs, save for a golden, in the summer she opens up every window in the house because she doesn't want AC because she's afraid of allergies and such.

We don't know why exactly people do what they do or why they feel what they feel. Maybe they know, deep inside, their fears are irrational. Maybe they convince themselves they can't be afraid of everything all the time, and make the decision to live their lives, fear be damned. But it doesn't mean they don't go away. Things like that can imprint on your soul.

We're not in Oscar's head. We don't know for a fact he doesn't have fears. Everyone has fears. To say that this window is evidence of his lies is just too thin IMO. If that's where Nel's going with it, then God bless him for trying. But to believe the the whole thing is untrue because he has a crack in his window. No, gonna need a little more than that. We've heard from ST about him waking her up, fearing intruders. We've seen that tweet about going recon mode on his washing machine. Why is it so hard to believe he may actually have the issues he says he does?
 
Hmmm... I looked at the SA prisons last year and it seemed to me that they mirror those of Latin America, like Peru and Brasil. Not good at all. Basic like a prison should be when a life sentence is 25-35 years and then the murderer is set free.

OP reminds me of Joran Van Der Sloot, currently in a max security prison in Peru. He was a celebrity but now he is just another convict serving his time in a deplorable prison, the only luxury is the food and things that people bring. There are lots of convicts in these prisons who have a similar disability to OP. there is a huge prison right there in Pretoria, so his family will bring him treats frequently I'm sure.
Actually, if you know the story of the Waterkloof 4, the boys were recently paroled, 2 of them landed back in jail a week later when cell videos emerged of them drinking, using cell phones, listening to music and having a grand old time in their cell. Even I was surprised to see they had a pc, telly and a host of luxuries while supposedly serving time for murder.
 
I think many people wanted the broken window to be important.

The reality is, it isn't. I let it go when it wasn't brought up in prosecution.

I'm also assuming the air-rifle has nothing to do with the case.

If the air-rifle was involved in the case it would certainly have been examined as an exhibit by an expert witness (ballistics) when prosecution had their opportunity.

Completely. And I suspect this isn't the last piece of evidence that will disappoint people...
 
Hey, maybe Nel will choose to go there, now that there's an explanation for the window.

And if that's the case, then it's pretty flimsy. OP's entire story doesn't unravel because he didn't get broke window fixed right away...

Sure it would be flimsy if that's all there was, but it isn't. It's just one of a number of factors that prove the point. Such as leaving ladders under his windows.
 
I'm not being sexist but maybe OP thought about the broken window the same way as I do. It's not any easier to get into that house with the window like it is than if it was a full window. An open window, yes. A hole in a window, no. All burglars could do is blow through it and make noises.

Now if someone can explain to me how this window is easier to get in than a second floor open window, I may come around to another way of thinking.

Until such time, I really think it's being overplayed because it didn't have the required result that some wanted it to have in the case.
 
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