Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[Mr Fossil]

Mr Fossil, I think you're under an illusion about how long Reeva survived. I have bolded the relevant part in two of your recent posts:




I know the forensics man referred to arterial spurts, but the word "spurt" was a clear mistake for "spatter". We have now had pretty good pics of the blood marks in question and none of them shows spurting arterial blood pattern. We also have pathologist Saayman's statement that vital functions would have ceased almost immediately upon the masssive brain injury and Dr Stipp's evidence that Reeva's eyes were already veiled when he examined her. There was a long and sometimes lively dispute about this between Viper and the other medics but Viper's view cannot seriously be challenged now that we can examine the pics ourselves and we have had Stipp's evidence.

One consoling result of this is that Reeva was spared the ultimate indignity of dying in her killer's arms. She was dead before he reached her.

The only evidence we now have for postulating Reeva's survival for several minutes is from OP himself - draw your own conclusions.

BTW this may show why no one was especially interested in taking Reeva urgently to hospital. It was obvious she was dead.

I don't think she lived long at all, and certainly not for 15+ minutes. I believe the second set of bangs were the gunshots and the first set were OP terrorising Reeva. The bash to the bath (which would have been loud too) probably fits in with the terrorising bangs. I couldn't make out definitively from the photo whether the bath had been hit more than once.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I think we can forget Frank.. no doubt he is currently on a dhow in the Mozambique Channel calling himself Mboya Mgoner. A man who says he heard nothing , knows nothing, saw nothing, isn't coming back.

You are so very funny, thank you. :floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[Budgie]

Along these lines, as well, is that Prof Saayman testified that Reeva's heart and liver were pale, "from blood loss".

Dr Stipp's eye findings are not actually contradictory to those of the blood splatter experts who states that she died on the stairs. If the shot to the head was 3:16 ish and Dr Stipp arrived at 3:26 (and to be fair he likely took some seconds introducing himself before he examined Reeva) there's ample time for her to bleed (pale heart and liver), followed by possibly weak and erratic cardiac activity accounting for the characteristic blood splatter on the stairs followed by full cardiac arrest. According to the wiki reference the corneal changes can occur after only a few minutes. The pupil changes (fixed and dilated) would have occurred after the head shot.

Didn't Dr. Stipp say her eye was cloudy also?
I'm not even remotely sure of what that means in medical terms but I do remember him saying it.

 

[Bazinga]

Maybe, the last call on the "lost" phone was to
Frank-the-caretaker???
Police had to prove Frank's house phone, but did they?

Did Reeva throw her jeans out of the bathroom window to alarm Frank??

Frankly, I think Frank should just be frank about what he heard, saw and did that night.

 

[katydid23]

I agree.
I try to give the benefit of the doubt on this one,but really if Frank does not testify for the defence it would be very hard not to read anything into it .
It just seems incredible that he couldn't have heard anything at all whilst being on the premises.
I did wonder whether the prosecution did any sound tests around his accommodation to see if he could be telling the truth and maybe they believe him. Although he heard enough to be around when the other people first arrived.

When my son still lived at home, he would often go to sleep with his iPod plugged into his ears. So he would hear NOTHING. You could pound and pound on his door,which he locked, as a once obnoxious teen. LOL

Maybe Frank had headphones and played video games or listened to music as he went to sleep?

 

[Murphys_Law]

As you might have noticed I have been lurking for almost the whole trial even though I have followed this case since the beginning. But it is Minor whose posts I remember most but I have never challenged them only because she is a verified attorney - until now. My mother died recently so I have been grieving. Therefore, I have just lurked and watched the trial. But some of the posts Minor has been making seem illogical to me. But I am not a lawyer. I have a background in psychology but have not sought to be verified. Therefore, I am more interested in the psychological aspects of this case. That is where I am coming from rather than a legal point of view.

I am very sorry for your loss Estelle.

I had wondered about your whereabouts, and missed your insightful commentary especially with respect to the psychological aspects.

 

[Jake18]

Didn't Dr. Stipp say her eye was cloudy also?
I'm not even remotely sure of what that means in medical terms but I do remember him saying it.

Sorry, I'm not very clear sometimes. That's what I meant by the corneal changes.

 

[crasshopper]

As you might have noticed I have been lurking for almost the whole trial even though I have followed this case since the beginning. But it is Minor whose posts I remember most but I have never challenged them only because she is a verified attorney - until now.

My mother died recently so I have been grieving. Therefore, I have just lurked and watched the trial.

rbsm

So, so very sorry for your loss.

I'm certain a detente is in order and do hope it occurs.

 

[Estelle]

On the edge:

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/in-one-mo...-lurking-behind-the-smile-20131129-2yh2k.html

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-...enced-to-18-years-for-fiancees-murder/5251168

I have also followed this case and it reminds me of this one as they are similar controlling, narcissistic and jealous men. Simon Gittany got 26 years with a non-parole period of 18 years. I am hoping for at least the same with OP.

 

[Jake18]

As you might have noticed I have been lurking for almost the whole trial even though I have followed this case since the beginning. But it is Minor whose posts I remember most but I have never challenged them only because she is a verified attorney - until now. My mother died recently so I have been grieving. Therefore, I have just lurked and watched the trial. But some of the posts Minor has been making seem illogical to me. But I am not a lawyer. I have a background in psychology but have not sought to be verified. Therefore, I am more interested in the psychological aspects of this case. That is where I am coming from rather than a legal point of view.

Condolences on your loss.

What approach to you think the DT will take with regard to OP's psychological defence? I'm sure there will be something and I'm looking forward to it, I find that sort of thing interesting.

 

[Budgie]

I really wouldn't worry about it. If there was any suspicious circumstance, or the slightest thing that benefited either side, they'd be using it to their advantage without a doubt.

He probably wasn't in the house that evening. He could well have been getting merrily sloshed or stoned somewhere, and came back to the house that morning. He may have gone away for the evening to give Reeva and OP more privacy. We're unlikely to hear anything from the court in any case.

I agree.
I try to give the benefit of the doubt on this one,but really if Frank does not testify for the defence it would be very hard not to read anything into it .
It just seems incredible that he couldn't have heard anything at all whilst being on the premises.
I did wonder whether the prosecution did any sound tests around his accommodation to see if he could be telling the truth and maybe they believe him. Although he heard enough to be around when the other people first arrived.

Aside from the deceased and the accused he effectively and without doubt or suspicion based on what he told police, was and still is the first and only witness on the scene. Why hasn't he been called to the stand? Forget the bloody neighbours and what they heard or didn't hear. He said he was asleep in the house!
For goodness sake, this is looking like a kangaroo court rather than a court of actual law. And the court system allowed live coverage for the world to watch...what did they expect after this piece of news came out that there was actually someone else in the house....a whip round from all viewers on how well they are proceeding with this seven week debacle.
Get Oscar back on the damn stand if they have this much time to waste.

 

[Cherwell]

There was testimony already, that on the tragic day she died, Reeva came and went from OP's home by herself. She arrived before he did that day. Then went to market and returned. So she obviously knew how to use the alarm remote.

And if she was spending time alone there, she would have been told how to hit PANIC button A beautiful young lady knows things like that because she is always aware of safety precautions.

I think that was another falsehood set forth by OP. And the assessor caught him out. anic:

We are forgetting Frank here. I've said more than once that I understood there was a housekeeper on the premises, who could have let Reeva in. If Frank was in, the alarm needn't have been on.

 

[Cherwell]

Very poor generally (though there are new ones being built) due to the overcrowding and age of the building. Having read this up during the last few days it seems the overcrowding is dire and many prisons hold twice the intended capacity. Depending where they are and their age, they are dirty, filled with murderers and addicts and are very dangerous places. If OP is found guilty, he will almost certainly appeal and be allowed bail during this process. However, if his appeal fails IMO a newish prison with better facilities will be found for him, unlike some other poor Jo who gets dumped in a dive.

But suppose he is found guilty on the firearms charges and given a custodial sentence for those? What are the chances of his appealing those? I can't see that being allowed.

 

[Bazinga]

Here we have OP saying he was a vulnerable, disabled guy, trapped in his bedroom. But there was actually a male employee right downstairs. Surprises the heck out of me that he didn't call Frank's cell and warn him about the intruders, and ask for some back up.

And why would OP call an old man who lived blocks away, for help lifting Reeva? He had Frank, his man servant, already on the premises. That blows my mind that Nel hasn't questioned the DT about that.

It really is odd and there is more to it than we have heard yet. imo

Wouldn't Frank be the perfect witness for Roux to dispel the rumors that OP and RS were arguing loudly that night? Why wasn't he put up there to debunk that?

Yep! The third person at the property not testifying for the defence speaks volumes. I think he is doing a huge favour to OP just in staying silent.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

When my son still lived at home, he would often go to sleep with his iPod plugged into his ears. So he would hear NOTHING. You could pound and pound on his door,which he locked, as a once obnoxious teen. LOL

Maybe Frank had headphones and played video games or listened to music as he went to sleep?

Yes thats a good point ,my kids do that as well so it certainly is possible.
I keep forgetting that the prosecution will also have a lot more information and thoughts so things that I am confused about will not be confusing to them .
At this point I am really wanting to hear Nel's closing arguments and of course to be balanced I will listen to the rest of the defence as well.
I am not sure what they could bring that would be a big game changer but I guess I will just have to wait and see.

 

[Cherwell]

Totally agree with you .. it just doesn't fit with Reeva only just plucking up the courage to say "I love you" in her Valentines Card. I very much doubt they were engaged, and the story sounds like yet another fabrication to me in order to bolster up this picture of them being a couple happily in love and that he couldn't possibly have killed her in a fit of pique. :facepalm:

Not very important, but there seems to be a general assumption that Reeva had not said ILY before the Valentine card. There is no way at all that we can know this. I don't infer it from the wording of the card. Valentines Day is a good day to say ILY - whether it's been said before or not.

 

[Jake18]

Man, if the news articles are to be believed, Frank lives in his own quarters next to the kitchen!

This really changes the whole dynamic of OP's story to me!

Articles are saying he was asleep through the whole ordeal (i.e. during 1.5 hours where there were male/female screaming, gunshots, cricket bats as loud as gunshots, OP crying, etc). He would have been the perfect witness for OP...

Frank, as we all likely suspect, would know a lot! I'm loathe to criticise him too much though for not testifying/making a statement without "walking a mile in his shoes". I'd speculate that there was a huge power imbalance in the relationship he had with OP - who was not only a national hero but from an old and wealthy family. Is it unlikely/impossible that he felt intimidated? I'd say no.

 

[Really?]

Estelle....I too am very sorry for your loss.....I lost my Dad in March who lived next door to me.

I have found the Trial and the wonderful Websleuthers here to be a great distraction. Chin up.

 

[katydid23]

We are forgetting Frank here. I've said more than once that I understood there was a housekeeper on the premises, who could have let Reeva in. If Frank was in, the alarm needn't have been on.

But it confuses me. Because why would she live there for a week to watch the dogs, if Frank was always there? Why didn't he watch the dogs?

 

[Cherwell]

When my son still lived at home, he would often go to sleep with his iPod plugged into his ears. So he would hear NOTHING. You could pound and pound on his door,which he locked, as a once obnoxious teen. LOL

Maybe Frank had headphones and played video games or listened to music as he went to sleep?

Surely it's glaringly obvious why Frank "heard nothing, saw nothing, knows nothing". :silenced: :lipssealed: :shutup:

:shakehead: