Trial Discussion Thread #35 - 14.05.08 Day 28

[crasshopper]

April 7:
6:49pm: Pistorius' psychologist cradled his head in her hands, kissing top of his head. She has moved away now, leaving just the three siblings clutching each other

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/oscar-p...e-the-stand-20140407-368r1.html#ixzz31A8VERiN
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Should we start discussing blurring ethical boundaries or is it premature? All I know is I've been in counseling myself and my head was never in my counselor's hands (literally) and I was certainly never kissed by her. Not quite sure I got my money's worth now. :biggrin:

A bit much and I have to question why this is done in full view of the public? Certainly there is a room they can retire to.

 

[steveml]

IMO, both types were used ...note the colour of the cartridges A1 to A4 on the attachment below.

The figure circled in the toilet bowl - a 5th cartridge, is speculation on my part based on a poor image

I would be extremely surprised if this was overlooked by both expert witnesses. A fired cartridge contains a head-stamp that can be used to trace it back to the original bullet manufacturer. I would have expected Captain Mangena to do this as most of the manufacturers are cataloged. It's quite possible that he looked at the colour of the bullet fragments and the pattern made by the mushroom effect on impact, and presumed these were Black Talons.

 

[jay-jay]

Sure, I can try. But first, I think it's KM, not GM, correct?

When you ask someone how they can sleep at night, you're saying that their guilty conscience should be keeping them awake but is not. Just for example, if you said to your friend who was cheating on her husband, "I don't know how you sleep at night," you would be saying "how can you live with yourself knowing what you're doing behind his back and not be so overcome with guilt that you lay awake at night thinking about it."

Here, Oscar's comment suggests that KM has guilty knowledge that should be keeping her awake at night. Presumably, it would have something to do with his guilt or innocence.

jmo

Guilty knowledge of what though? IMO, there is nothing which justifies OP killing Reeva, therefore her friend need not be made to feel guilty by the killer about anything, no matter what she does or does not know. That, to me, is still blame passing and would be something along the lines "she (Reeva) made me do it and you (Kim) know why I had to do it" which is just ridiculous. Killing another person just because they've done something you don't like (flirted with another man, put the peas on the wrong side of the plate, etc, etc) can never be justified and a person does not have to kill that person just because they are annoyed or upset with them about something, regardless of what it is.

 

[soozieqtips]

Unless it's among his legal restrictions, he can speak to whomever he pleases unless what he says amounts to a crime. The prosecutor's office has already said they're not doing anything about it, so I guess it's not among his restrictions or a crime.

I don't know why he would have said those specific words to her. I only know that they aren't a threat and, to me, suggest innocence rather than guilt. Now if he'd said something like "better watch your back" or anything remotely similar, I'd understand the todo.

jmo

BBM - Maybe it wouldn't have hurt him to have spared a thought for someone other than himself for a change, and perhaps considered that Kim Myers wouldn't welcome her friend's killer approaching her like that. Something doesn't have to be a crime for it to be distasteful and thoughtless. Kim didn't murder Reeva, so her conscience is clear. I think it just shows (yet again) the type of bully OP is, even when he's in public.

 

[DebinGA]

A bit much and I have to question why this is done in full view of the public? Certainly there is a room they can retire to.

For one thing, the journos in court report every tear-jerking bit of it, so imo it's a planned sympathy garnering ploy by Team OP.

 

[44ALLAN]

All to do with her falling after the hip shot and as she goes down down comes her arm too in line for the second quick bullet. Add to that there are splinters in the hip wound, i.e. near door, and none in the head, away from door, so there is a certain logic.

And something niggling me but that I may have got wrong, is that if Reeva seated on the rack was hit in the right arm elbow height or thereabouts, how, if she were straight ahead of the door (or even worse slightly to the left) when looking into the loo as I seem to recall was Mangena's descriptive testimony, could the bullet exit with it causing bruising left to right across her breast/s which I thought was how Mangena visually described with his hands. Or have it all wrong ?

It's all fascinating but is it relevant !

He had a chance to leave through the bedroom door but he chose to go and get his gun.
He then walked/ran toward the alleged intruder confronting the danger and becoming the aggressor.
He then told this aggressor to leave and shot them with 4 bullets ( 3 hitting) before allowing them to do so.

The rest is totally irrelevant.
AIMVHOOC

 

[jay-jay]

I took the 'How can you sleep at night' comment to mean 'how can they (Reeva's family and friends) possibly not believe it was all just a tragic accident, and how can they possibly have me arrested, tried and imprisoned for it?' .. just that he wouldn't dare say it to Reeva's mother, so he said it to Kim instead when he had the opportunity.

 

[BritsKate]

A bit much and I have to question why this is done in full view of the public? Certainly there is a room they can retire to.

But wait! There's more:

April 7:
14:44 "He's sitting on the floor of the dock, his face being stroked by his psychologist," Crawford further says.

April 15:
Aimee Pistorius moved to the witness box to hug her brother, and quite mysteriously, Pistorius’s psychologist silently clapped her hands.


http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Oscar_Pistorius/Live/LIVE-UPDATES-Pistorius-trial-day-17-20140407

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...rosecution-ends-crossexamination-9261813.html

 

[patCee]

Colonel Mustard:

While well-meaning, in my opinion, Yvette Schalkwyk inadvertently became a role model for the worst stereotypes of those in direct helping professions. My assessment begins with her being "well-meaning" and goes downhill from there.

RSBM

I understand the views in your post, but the above stood out for me.

In the UK Social Workers and the Probation Service are completely separate but share some core values. Both professions are now almost over regulated and adhere strictly to 'best practice' where much of the work is prescribed with clear boundaries through regulations and policies.

This was always true of the Probation Service because, despite more individual autonomy than social workers, with few exceptions they work within a narrow focus dealing with adult offenders within the Criminal Justice System and answer to the courts in addition to management. In recent years there have been changes and although well qualified they are no longer required to be qualified social workers.

So in general there is little scope for the actions seen in court today, or even to take the stand in court, unless specifically ordered to do so by the court. Lawyers here would need to ask the court to order her attendance.

but......as I've said before there is always one.

 

[44ALLAN]

If RS was shot in hip and or arm, as per Wolmaran's view, close to the door. How quickly would the wounds have bled? There is no blood on the floor directly inside the toilet door.

View attachment 43373

View attachment 43374

Exactly

 

[steveml]

I don't know how anyone could believe that the State ballistics expert could completely screw up by not recognizing and researching what the exact type of bullets were left remaining in OPs gun, and what the exact type of the bullets that were removed from Reeva's dead body at her autopsy. Mangena did not make a misidentification of the bullets.

OP used a variant of the Ranger that had an actual black tipped bullet on the top. It was very hard for W to find any of them. That they had the black tip and were the next generation of the Black Talon it appears from W's testimony that gun enthusiasts (and lawmen) still refer to them as Black Talons. OP himself responded to Nel's questions about Black Talon ammunition without the slightest trouble, he never corrected Nel to say that he used Rangers with black bullets on top. He did not have to because the two are interchangeable.

The improved Ranger version of the Black Talon was lighter. But that translates in to increased speed, feet per second (FPS). The talons design was improved to also mushroom with a larger diameter, making them even more lethal and destructive than the first generation.

So, if the bullets are not Black Talons (identification of which should be easy, as you say) we can reach three conclusions.

1. Mangena completely screwed up.

or

2. Mangena knew they weren't Black Talons, but the PT went with it anyway because of the dramatic name and adverse public opinion that they correctly predicted would ensue.

3. Both 1 and 2.

 

[aoibhinn]

I think a child/adolescent specialist is appropriate for OP, as he has the same impulse control issues of a toddler. All the mothers of 2 yr. olds I know will tell you that a screaming child, if rewarded, will continue to bawl or scream every time to get something s/he wants or avoid something s/he doesn't want ... i.e. act exactly like the supposedly adult OP.

And I totally don't disagree with you on that point.

However, it makes me think that she has to be a 'friend of a friend' so to speak (or a Pistorian), as OPs predicament and counselling needs are a world away from her field of expertise.

April 7:
6:49pm: Pistorius' psychologist cradled his head in her hands, kissing top of his head.

Respectfully snipped for relevance.

Whether in public or private, I'm aghast. Did she cradle his head her lap, perchance? Touching your client, apart from a handhake, is crossing boundaries. At least where I come from.

 

[Cherwell]

Guilty knowledge of what though? IMO, there is nothing which justifies OP killing Reeva, therefore her friend need not be made to feel guilty by the killer about anything, no matter what she does or does not know. That, to me, is still blame passing and would be something along the lines "she (Reeva) made me do it and you (Kim) know why I had to do it" which is just ridiculous. Killing another person just because they've done something you don't like (flirted with another man, put the peas on the wrong side of the plate, etc, etc) can never be justified and a person does not have to kill that person just because they are annoyed or upset with them about something, regardless of what it is.

Yes, as I said earlier I think it's anger. Now if it's true that his killing of Reeva was the culmination of an escalating argument, he probably blames her friends for, I don't know, turning her against him, or encouraging her to stand up to him, or even leave him, or whatever interpretation he's put on it. Because it won't have been his fault, oh no.

 

[Cymbaline]

Has he been asked about it though? I didn't think it had been mentioned in court at all, although I may have missed something.



And presumably that would be a gun for which he had no licence or permit, otherwise there would be nothing illegal about having the ammunition. Am I right?

He first opened his bedroom door then he went and opened the front door. He ran back up to his room. On the way in to his room he tried to force open the door. He explains to the Judge that the door to his bedroom is a double door. The main door locks with a key and the other door has a latch at the top and bottom. He “ran in to the door and it didn’t break open.” So he reached down and unlatched the latch and it opened. Here is how the door was found by crime scene investigators.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/04/08/oscar-trial-day-18-oscar/




Doesn't that sound logical?

 

[Lochlynsmom]

BIB That would be described as "peri-menopausal"



I haven't had many ops, thank goodness, but being asked for the date of one's last period does seem to be pretty routine whenever anything vaguely medical happens.

I am behind so not sure if this was addressed but I believe that is to confirm that there isn't a chance you are pregnant.

 

[Gryffindor]

So, if the bullets are not Black Talons (identification of which should be easy, as you say) we can reach three conclusions.

1. Mangena completely screwed up.

or

2. Mangena knew they weren't Black Talons, but the PT went with it anyway because of the dramatic name and adverse public opinion that they correctly predicted would ensue.

3. Both 1 and 2.

Hmmmm. Intriguing point there, Steve . . .

 

[BritsKate]

I took the 'How can you sleep at night' comment to mean 'how can they (Reeva's family and friends) possibly not believe it was all just a tragic accident, and how can they possibly have me arrested, tried and imprisoned for it?' .. just that he wouldn't dare say it to Reeva's mother, so he said it to Kim instead when he had the opportunity.

I had a friend when I was 16 who was raped and murdered by two boys she went to school with (we went to different high schools). Knowing what they were accused of doing to someone I loved - the defendants could have asked me if I wanted a happy meal and I probably would have fled the courtroom screaming and crying. In those circumstances, how does one not take it as sinister? How is one not disturbed by it? 20+ years later, I still get goosebumps even referencing her killers.

(Both boys, 16 at the time of Charlene's murder were sentenced to LWOP. Their appeals have been denied.)

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...qkpAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pCwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6801,7671452

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...qIaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wywEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6892,1814575

 

[BritsKate]

And I totally don't disagree with you on that point.

However, it makes me think that she has to be a 'friend of a friend' so to speak (or a Pistorian), as OPs predicament and counselling needs are a world away from her field of expertise.



Respectfully snipped for relevance.

Whether in public or private, I'm aghast. Did she cradle his head her lap, perchance? Touching your client, apart from a handhake, is crossing boundaries. At least where I come from.

RBBM

IIRC, it was his aunt who cradled his head in her lap. He's cradled and stroked a lot by several people leading me to post yesterday that he's afforded some very strange soothing or comforting gestures for a 27 year old man but that's just my opinion.

 

[DebinGA]

Whether in public or private, I'm aghast. Did she cradle his head her lap, perchance? Touching your client, apart from a handhake, is crossing boundaries. At least where I come from.

RSBM

I think Oscar, Lore, and the Standers had "histrionic" lessons from the same acting teacher.

 

[DebinGA]

RBBM

IIRC, it was his aunt who cradled his head in her lap. He's cradled and stroked a lot by several people leading me to post yesterday that he's afforded some very strange soothing or comforting gestures for a 27 year old man but that's just my opinion.

It's creepy imo.