Trial Discussion Thread #39 - 14.05.14 Day 32

[MsMarple]

Were there subtle clues in judge Masipa's use of the phrase, "He shouldn't be punished TWICE." ????

Maybe the judge meant “punishment” more akin to the notion of suffering. In other words, if OP is suffering from a mental illness that's increasing in intensity it would be yet more punishment to make him sit in jail while waiting for a bed. If she doesn't view him as dangerous she could be concerned for his mental health.

Just a stray thought.

 

[sleuth-d-]

I think it's really important to stress that the defence case may well turn on a dime depending on what, if any, his diagnosis is too.

maybe. if they note the narcissism/pathological lying the dime will certainly be spinning.

is it rock/hard place time again?

jail time/long-term psychiatric hospital residency.

 

[soozieqtips]

That's just not how the human mind works, G.bng. You can't just switch off your critical judgement for a few weeks and then switch it on again later. The judge will already have reached many conclusions about the relative value of the different witnesses she has heard and there is no reason for her not to have a provisional view that OP is going to be found guilty.
What is a little surprising is her allusion to being punished twice as this (a) seems to let the cat out of the bag that he is going down and (b) seems to imply that psychiatric evaluation is a punishment.
However, everyone in the world except perhaps OP already knows he's going to get a custodial sentence and I think the psychiatric evaluation will feel like a punishment to OP who does not believe and has not claimed that he is suffering from any syndrome and doesn't even think he should be on trial at all.

Good post, and I totally agree. It's somewhat naive to assume the judge has no feelings one way or another at the moment. Of course she does. She's sat through endless witness testimony, heard the numerous lies OP has told under oath, heard him discrediting perfectly credible witnesses in order to bolster his own lies, and watched as he categorically denied the Tasha's incident. There is no way she hasn't got some idea in her head already about which way this is going to go, and I don't believe she needs 'removing from the bench' simply for formulating her own impressions as the trial's progressed.

 

[lithgow1]

Hmm, was he checking flight schedules?

Maybe - perhaps this is where he literally opts for 'flight' rather than 'fight'.

 

[soozieqtips]

.. and from another link connected to that .. isn't it lovely to see OP looking so relaxed and happy in court (8 May) .. awwww ..

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-05-08-pistorius-trial-week-seven-day-three/#.U3NNunY8dEs

ETA .. pass the green bucket someone, please ..

Wow. That is really the image of a broken and desperate man!

 

[jay-jay]

Maybe - perhaps this is where he literally opts for 'flight' rather than 'fight'.

:floorlaugh:

.. thanks lithgow, needed that!

 

[Greater Than]

It was pretty clear from Nels' reading of the law yesterday that the judge would have no choice but to order this. Roux's argument really didn't make all that much sense to me.

I would think the head of the evaluating team will be the one who decides exactly what is required for a proper evaluation to be performed. If it requires a portion of overnight observation of OP, I suspect a bed will be found.

There are certain psychiatric treatment programs nowadays in the U.S. that are conducted on an "intensive outpatient" basis. The patient attends all day long but does go home to sleep at night.

I do not know what type of outpatient hours would be required for a forensic eval. I do know that some of the tests are quite long, with a hundred or more questions and they take hours to complete.

Hopefully the evaluating team will get more accurate and more extensive information than Dr. Vorster got.

I'd like to see an overnight observation where they make a noise in the bathroom and document his reaction.

 

[Val1]

bbm. if that is indeed the strategy, it will require the highest of highwire balancing acts.

it didn't look to me as though roux was arguing because he didn't think there was anything wrong with op, it looked like he was extremely worried about what would be discovered under a 30 day assessment.

bbm - Ha, there is that too, OP is definitely a loose wire .... otoh, if he doesn't go for it, the odds at this point look like OP would be looking at a minimum of 15yrs plus the gun and ammo times, so I think Roux was willing to take the chance. Win big or go home.

 

[Val1]

I'd like to see an overnight observation where they make a noise in the bathroom and document his reaction.

I doubt that would work... kinda like when the defence team tried to re-inact the screams/raised voices for the neighbours.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Is that really OP sketching something? What is that he is drawing? It does not look like a gun to my eyes. At first it appeared to be anatomical, but probably not. What is it?

odd that a sketch is photographed... pad in full view. no photos for eight weeks prior to this afaik...

are we now allowed to see all the notes he has made on the same pad, i am sure the photographer has taken plenty? who is deciding which photos are acceptable to publish?

 

[LaLaw2000]

Let me get this right.

The Defence opposed this application and lost.

But a loss is actually a win?

:weaklink:

Edit: OP will not want an independent psychiatric analysis done because he will fail.
Its easy to get a psychiatrist to say whatever you like when you pay them enough.

At first I thought it might be an attempt of 'reverse psychology' on Rouz' part to get Nel to bring the application. 'Reverse Psychology' would then require Roux to oppose it. IMO, OP thinks he has this GAD down pat and it would be used in his favor at sentencing. If OP is indeed a narcissist, and I believe he is, then he feels as if he can fool any psychiatrist or psychologist into believing he has no mental disorder other than GAD.

GAD would seem to be the least damaging disorder and would allow the court to apply it at sentencing, thus maybe getting less sentenced time. OP does not want to be seen as someone with anything other than the anxiety disorder.

OP is such a narcissist that he really thinks he should not be incarcerated like the criminal I believe him to be. He truly doesn't see himself as one who has committed a crime, IMO. He feels he deserves special treatment.

I may not be a psychiatrist or a psychologist, but I worked around criminals for years. Criminals always attempt to justify the crime in any way they can. OP has justified the murder (IMO, it was murder) in his mind. I further believe OP has dreams of getting through this and making a comeback in his career. Narcissism at it's finest.

BBM:

I just hope that money, notoriety, and fame will have no influence in the diagnosis of these psychiatrists and psychologists. They are just as human as we are and can be influenced and do make mistakes as well. I hope they have integrity in capitol letters.

*Is there anything such as a pre-sentencing report in SA courts?

Sorry for the length of this post. I have followed everyday but have been rather quiet!

MOO

 

[lithgow1]

:floorlaugh:

.. thanks lithgow, needed that!

My pleasure jay-jay. I did think some of your recent posts displayed some pessimism or resignation so am pleased to give you a smile. I think it's all good really. I'd prefer the assessments to take place with him under supervision but I think the state will do their best to ensure that it's not just done according to the Pistorius clan's wishes. IMO M'lday would not take this step only to let it then be half-as...ed.

A question: is the aunt who is the forensic psychologist married to the uncle or a blood relative? I think it would be a bit of a concern if she is living with him and able to 'help' him but maybe that's unavoidable and again, I have every confidence that Nel will attempt to make the assessment stringent and comprehensive.

 

[Viper]

Wow. That is really the image of a broken and desperate man!

Yea, but this was OP this morning. Childish, pensive, unshaven.

 

[sleuth-d-]

AnneMarie is the ex wife of the surgeon who amputated his legs, she barged into the bail hearing, saying she had a dream where OPs late mother talked to her, saying OP needed a psychiatric assessment.

Wierd huh! It's come true.

it would be weird, in any other trial. with this one it fits in just fine.

 

[Interested Bystander]

How is he being punished twice? He hasn't been punished at all yet????

I think she is just confirming that he is going to get a prison sentence, assuming he is not found to be nuts. MOO

 

[asanque]

The fact that the judge on her own has introduced mental defect as a possible defense is a huge win for the defense. Like it or not.

Of course its a possible defence, but the Defence team has not used this as part of their case.

It would be pretty amazing for OP to change his defence for the 4th time and would be a huge stretch for the judge.

Let alone the fact that this defence may lead to OP being committed to a mental institution rather than a jail. (Edit: i.e. a last ditch defence when nothing else is looking likely to work)

Given the prosecution team's push to get him properly assessed, they must be confident that an independent analysis of OP will not benefit the defence in any way (and will also reduce the possibility of appeal).

 

[Cherwell]

I think she is just confirming that he is going to get a prison sentence whatever. MOO

Which he will be allowed to serve at home, if it goes like everything else has. :banghead:

 

[Gryffindor]

odd that a sketch is photographed... pad in full view. no photos for eight weeks prior to this afaik...

are we now allowed to see all the notes he has made on the same pad, i am sure the photographer has taken plenty? who is deciding which photos are acceptable to publish?

Not published per se just tweeted from a court journo's Twitter account. Chance and opportunity, I imagine.

 

[Giles]

Does anyone think that this might have helped OP from a Public Relations point of view? For the next month or more, people and the media are going to be talking about his mental health and how it feeds into his version. There's going to be less focus on whether he deliberately killed Reeva.

 

[DILLIGAF]

Well very interesting Judge Masipa approved the application with a caveat that it would be more appropriate for an evaluation to be done on an outpatient basis, which is what I suggested Nel should have asked for all along.

IMO this is a win for the defense, they did not offer a new defense, but the judge has granted them a new defense dependent upon the findings of the evaluations. It seems as if there will be 3 psychiatrists and possibly 1 or 2 psychologists and that this was all agreed to in chambers before court.

The judge indicated that if Voster’s diagnosis is correct that it bolsters the accused version of that morning and it is something the court will have to take into consideration.


I'm not a trial watcher (have never watched one) other than bits and pieces of the Arias trial but this is certainly very interesting on many levels.

imo it's a loss for the defence, and they DID offer a new defence just by calling Prof V as a witness.

Roux will be kicking himself as the defence cannot now pick and choose who will do the assessment and they have NO control over what Oscar will say to those assessing him.
Oscar is a loose cannon and will only incriminate himself further imho. He just can't help himself, as his testimony showed. He was terrible in the box.

I don't expect Roux will call his next Psych expert when the trial resumes either. I suspect the he has unwittingly lost in two ways. First, there will be no possible defence of diminished responsibility and second, there will be no appeal on the basis of diminished responsibility.

Today I realised that Oscar is definitely going to jail in the very near future, and for a decent amount of time.