IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33

[elmorejames]

He's on FB. Friends with ZO. Resided in LA. Interesting to hear a new name and the comment about the phone records.

 

[Ixchel13]

Holy Spirit
On this day
Open their hearts and minds
To your wisdom
Close their eyes and ears to worldly possessions
Open their mouths with healing truth
Agape

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

3 years...

:candle: for Lauren

 

[Kadence]

3 years is a long time to be without a loved one and a long time to not know where they are and what happened to them. It's not right. So, I will ask again, because I believe you're reading - please, I beg of you, do the right thing and let the Spierers have their daughter back. Just tell them where she is, you knew how to disappear her under cover so surely you can figure out a way to make this happen. Please stop the pain.

Lauren, you're never forgotten and will always be in our hearts. Until you come home...

 

[doubtingthomas]

He's on FB. Friends with ZO. Resided in LA. Interesting to hear a new name and the comment about the phone records.

He is also friends on FB with HT, AR and AW. He list AW as his brother. AW is listed on CR's witness list. Sounds like maybe he was at the party at 5N or at T&C which is why they are requesting phone records. Just speculating.

 

[kpeacock]

Or perhaps a witness to the altercation at SW?

Sent from my VS930 4G using Tapatalk

 

[Ros]

He is also friends on FB with HT, AR and AW. He list AW as his brother. AW is listed on CR's witness list. Sounds like maybe he was at the party at 5N or at T&C which is why they are requesting phone records. Just speculating.

AR, the female friend of LS? He is also friends with her friend SG.

Do we know the name of the other male friend who received the early morning call? I would think that person would be on the witness lists.

 

[VeryVeritas]

http://www.lohud.com/story/news/loca...uggle/9837123/

Snipped from the above report:

"There are only two facts: A young woman got pretty intoxicated and she just walked away, and they can't make that into something it's not," lawyer Greg Garrison told the judge, arguing, successfully, that his client Mike Beth be dismissed as a defendant in the Spierers' wrongful death lawsuit. "She just walked away."

So did he mean "She just walked away" from MB's apt like MB originally said or she just walked away in general? Would have been nice to ask that question.

There is no proof whatsoever after the unconscious face down alley fall that Lauren WALKED again. It purely based on MB's and JR's inconsistent and contradictory statements. IF THEY did something with her and/or her body then in a criminal court you would need to prove that they DID do something. No evidence, no crime, these guys know that very well and their lawyers probably do to. In a civil case you have a slightly less burden of proof. How can MB be absolved from the case if he is central to it? That right there is a huge problem for the Plaintiffs.

As far as I am concerned, the people at 5N are responsible because all known evidence points to 5N and stops at 5N. That is preponderance to me, the highly paid defense Lawyer for JR may convince a jury otherwise.

And, if they disposed of her body to cover up anything at all, or even just out of sheer panic, to me they are at the very least also guilty of 3rd degree murder (aka manslaughter).

Just because you can cover up your crimes, clean evidence, spin stories, hire the best lawyer, and have a paid PR team, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Somewhere there are some posts with even more direct quotes from Chapman. In addition to the ones that Holly just posted, there are some other discrepancies that may not be a huge deal, but are worth pointing out - especially since some of the comments here suggest that the reason for the discrepancies is that they were all drunk. Like:

- Chapman also said that MB was home all night writing his papers and that he had not had any alcohol or drugs. I don't have time to look up the link because I'm on my way out (and have posted way too much here today anyway!), but it's been quoted here several times. Try searching "stone cold sober" as I'm pretty sure those were the exact words he used. (FTR, The lawsuit docs state that Beth was over at JR's and was drinking)

These should all be simple questions:

-Was MB at home writing papers all night, as his lawyer (and mom, supposedly) took the time to explicitly state to the media/ public? Or was he out?
- Did he not touch alcohol or drugs, or was he drinking?
- Was he at home when Lauren and Corey got there and promptly put Corey to bed ? Or was he out and came home to what he thought were 'robbers'?
- Did she leave wanting to party and MB turned down the invitation? Or was she severely intoxicated to the point that MB was worried about her getting home and needed to find help?
- Did Lauren leave while he was upstairs? Or did he watch her walk out the door? Or did MB take her over to JR's?
- Which apt was he in the last time he saw Lauren?
- Who was there?
- What time did she leave his place?


So why are there no clear answers, even when it comes from the accounts of one single POI? (MB)

Ok, I'm done for now Goodnight, all!

Those are a lot of details to fabricate if he had not even talked with his client yet? But MB doesn't get confronted with any of this, he gets released from the civil case?? Aren't the Spierer's lawyers or LE aware of these huge gaps in MB's statements?

 

[VeryVeritas]

Why did even Rohn need to lawyer up? All that he [officially] did, as I understand it, was walk Lauren to the pre-game party at JR's; and shortly thereafter he supposedly returned to Smallwood and stayed there for the rest of the night. The fact that someone in the group with as little apparent culpability as Rohn would lawyer up, along with the fact no one has cracked and come forward after three years, along with the fact that a body must of somehow gotten hidden really well: this all leads me to suspect, as EAO has hinted at, that this group might have all been running some sort of, um, business together. Just speculating. It casts a different light on ZO punching CR. I mean, couldn't four guys have put Lauren to bed, and thrown CR out of the building? Maybe the punch wasn't about Lauren at all. Maybe it was a disagreement about, you know, business. Again, just speculating.

I agree with you that from the very beginning it was obvious that ZO nor his crew cared about Lauren during that altercation. It was about something else. ZO was never prosecuted for clearly assaulting and battering CR with CR not fighting back. Very curious. LE has never explained why ZO was not prosecuted. There has not been any public disclosure from CR or ZO(or his crew) about the true nature of the altercation. People speculated that it was about Lauren, but the video proves they did nothing but ignore her. LE went after this video rabidly. But that's about the only thing they went after with such ferocity it seems.

 

[VeryVeritas]

The Spierers continue to suspect Mike Beth, Corey Rossman and Jason Rosenbaum had something to do with Lauren's disappearance and are withholding information...



http://www.lohud.com/story/news/loc...e-third-anniversary-parents-struggle/9837123/

For the record, I independently arrived at the same conclusion as the Spierer's as have other WS'rs. Some of us have been here from the beginning and others more recent. The smoking gun is at 5N. Many attempts to obfuscate that continue, there is no alternate theory with any evidence to support it. The problem is that there is not enough evidence to prove criminal wrongdoing. I had hoped that with FBI involvement there would be some traction. What we are seeing play out is a defect in our society that because a girl parties with guys she is fair game and can be dumped like trash. Hopefully someone with some conscience and piece of solid credible evidence will blow the lid off this case. It won't bring Lauren back. It is about the kind of world we create. I don't want a world where they can just do this and go on as if nothing happened.

 

[VeryVeritas]

[/B]

BBM. The fake ID has always bothered me. I would think that if she had been able to hold on to one card, it would have been her key card. Also, just speaking for myself, but if I go out without a purse and have several cards (ie ID, credit card or whatever) I tuck them somewhere together... its strange to me that she dropped two cards but not the third. I don't necessarily think it means anything, but IA with you that its strange.
One thing your post made me think of (JMO, IMO etc) is that if Lauren had her key card and her student ID visible when she arrived at JR's/5N, JR (or someone else) could have given it to someone to get rid of, and then later discovered her fake ID and decided to just say Lauren left it there. (like if she dropped the fake id at CR and MB's, but hung on to her student id and key card until JR's the fake id might not have been found until later)

Holly, I have never seen a link that says Lauren's FAKE ID was found nor her SW KEYCARD. These 2 items were very curiously noted in one of JR's public statements that he had seen them before she "walked out". These particular items have been extremely troubling to me because everything else in her possession including the wallet she normally kept these things in was left behind. It makes no sense that these things would be in her hands after losing everything else - that does not fit! This means that someone else had them, took them, or they were on her person when she fell face down. Personally I do not see anything that shows she ever walked again.
So JR noting these 2 items is highly suspicious to me.

If you have some link that shows her FAKE ID was found, I would like to know.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I wonder if JR used the word "bruise" to describe Lauren's supposed eye injury. To me bruise sounds like it was black and blue. I remember an episode of Moonlighting where the badguy was discovered to be lying, because he had someone with a fake injury being black and blue right away, whereas, it really takes a day for such an injury to go from pink to blue.

This is the first I'm hearing of a "Bruise". Previously linked statements from JR had him quoted as saying "Black Eye". Which is even more specific than bruise. Back maybe 1.5 to 2 years ago I had done some checking and found that there are 2 possibilities; 1) He saw her after she was dead OR 2) Her injuries were extremely serious - as in potentially fatal (this is the only way I found that a Black eye is Black in a short time interval while a person is alive)

Either way, it puts him in a culpable position.

 

[VeryVeritas]

As a law student you would equally know that what a lawyer says is not evidence of anything. It is common for lawyers to come up with different accounts, it is all a PR exercise and means nothing, because it is the lawyer who is saying it, not the client. They are presenting alternative scenarios to a narrative. That they choose not to explain that to you, the audience, should be readily apparent to any first year law student.

As a law student you would also know that the only time a lawyer is dragged in front of a disciplinary committee is if the client makes a complaint.

An alternative scenario that places their client where they were not, doing something they weren't and seeing things that didn't happen is known as:

A LIE

Are you saying that Lawyers can ethically and legally put out false/fraudulent statements on behalf of their client's whereabouts and actions during a missing person / homicide investigation?

Seems to me there is no point in Licensing lawyers if they can do things like that. Also they should not be admitted to the BAR.

 

[Ros]

Holly, I have never seen a link that says Lauren's FAKE ID was found nor her SW KEYCARD. These 2 items were very curiously noted in one of JR's public statements that he had seen them before she "walked out". These particular items have been extremely troubling to me because everything else in her possession including the wallet she normally kept these things in was left behind. It makes no sense that these things would be in her hands after losing everything else - that does not fit! This means that someone else had them, took them, or they were on her person when she fell face down. Personally I do not see anything that shows she ever walked again.
So JR noting these 2 items is highly suspicious to me.

If you have some link that shows her FAKE ID was found, I would like to know.

There has been speculation that her fake ID must have been found in order for it to have been used as evidence against Kilroy's. Are the records of that case open to the public?

 

[Ros]

An alternative scenario that places their client where they were not, doing something they weren't and seeing things that didn't happen is known as:

A LIE

Are you saying that Lawyers can ethically and legally put out false/fraudulent statements on behalf of their client's whereabouts and actions during a missing person / homicide investigation?

Seems to me there is no point in Licensing lawyers if they can do things like that. Also they should not be admitted to the BAR.

Unless there is clear evidence to the contrary, we should not presume that the lawyers are violating the Indiana Rules of Professional Conduct, including:

"Rule 4.1. Truthfulness in Statements to Others
In the course of representing a client a lawyer shall not knowingly:
(a) make a false statement of material fact or law to a third person; or
(b) fail to disclose a material fact to a third person when disclosure is necessary to avoid assisting a criminal or fraudulent act by a client, unless disclosure is prohibited by Rule 1.6."

Note the word "knowingly." If their clients lied to them, the attorneys could pass on the incorrect information. Also note that it only covers "material facts," not insignificant, trivial or otherwise unimportant details.

 

[VeryVeritas]

<snipped> Respectfully, I've never once said that. This is your often repeated line. I said that we have statements from their lawyers, who were hired to represent their clients and speak on their behalf. That is what the lawyers were doing when they gave statements to the media.

As I was clear to point out, we do not know what the POI have said in statements directly to LE. And yes, those statements are obviously important. But so are the statements that they made to witnesses, in interviews with private investigators, and through their lawyers. We are not in court. We are discussing a case based on information we have access to. The information we have that is attributed to the POI is filled with contradictory statements.

Meriam-Webster: ATTORNEY
one who is legally appointed to transact business on another's behalf [Lawyer] "Attorney." Merriam-Webster.com. Merriam-Webster, n.d. Web. 4 June 2014. <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/attorney>.

I'm not sure where in there it says that you can make FALSE and MISLEADING STATEMENTS on behalf of your client during a criminal investigation. Perhaps that's something you only learn in Law School? Or is it the gutter?

 

[Ros]

She hasn't been found for three years. If, as many speculate, she was hidden by one or more of the residents of 5N, why hide her so well that she could not be found?

Anyone know how much time would have to elapse before there would be no evidence of rape, roofies, other illegal drugs, etc. in her remains? I would be very surprised if anything that could convict someone would be left by that time. Why not send an anonymous tip and give her parents some peace?

 

[VeryVeritas]

A point of logic: someone not being on camera *would* be proof they were not there, *if and only if* there exists a camera pointed at the location in question. However, from walking around Tenth & College myself, and walking to Tenth & College from the corner of 11th and College Ave., just recently, it seems to me, if one walks from the infamous corner down to Tenth & College, and sits down on the SE steps of Tenth & College, he or she has never crossed the eye line of any cameras. (It seems to me, one has to enter the arcade, or walk around the North, South, or West sides of the building to get on camera.) I'm thinking of going back down there and taking pictures of all the relevant cameras to post here. (Has anyone done that?) I'm a little worried that whatever security they have there will start noticing me. But, hey, back off security: I'm a web sleuth!

[After reading EOA's last comment, I see he's already pointed out the same logical point, without the empirical assertion.]

Well you see human behavior isn't always logical, but it is usually predictable. People are creatures of habit. You see one of the many problems with JR's crafted account of LS being at his place and leaving very shortly thereafter is the direction he says she left without any explanation for that supposed direction. Her habit (as previously discussed on WS's) was to walk through that Alley, not to round the corner at 11th & College.
It's one of several things that point to JR's story being fabricated.

There are witness accounts that place LS and CR at 10th and college shortly before the final Alley Cam. We went over the times in detail and the pace of their walking between locations. Clearly they were slowing down the further North they went. The pace was fairly swift between Kilroy's and SW, but markedly slower after leaving SW. To the best of my recollection this left somewhere between 3 and 7 minutes for them to be at 10th & College. While there is no known video capture of them there, this time frame is just barely adequate to account for knocking on ZC's door and the head slam on the concrete steps.

 

[VeryVeritas]

RE: MB.
Originally I believed his story, that he was at home writing a paper, got roped into dealing with Lauren, and brought her over to JR's, either because CR was unable or unwilling to deal with her. As time has gone on, MB has changed his story (through his lawyer) drastically. First he was at home working on a paper when lauren and CR arrived, then he was at JR's when he suspected his home was being robbed and discovered Lauren and CR both in the house. First he walked Lauren to JR's and then left, then he stayed at JR's for an hour after bringing Lauren over. These aren't small differences, they aren't things that might slip your mind.

In one situation, you're at home writing a paper when your roommate comes home visibly *advertiser censored**** up, you take him upstairs, deal with him, come back down, the girl he was with still wants to party (this phrase seems to get lost in the shuffle. Lauren couldn't stand a short time previously, but now suddenly wants "to party"?), you take the girl to your neighbors and go home.
In another situation, you're at your neighbors, something happens that makes you think there has been a break in at your apartment. Rush home (alone? I'd think that if he was with JR, thought strangers were in his apartment, JR would come with him to help), find Lauren, bring her to JR's, stay for an hour while JR makes various phone calls, etc.

IMO these changes matter, why would MB change his story to such a degree? Was there something in his original story that he had reason to believe could be disproven?

I got out my whamo zammo legal protractor and checked the degree by which MB's original statements through his PAID HIRED LICENSED LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE regarding Lauren differs from known facts and JR's statements on her condition by not just 2 or 3 degrees, but more like 180 degrees. That is a very serious contradiction. What would the intent be of making such a statement if it were in fact, FALSE Because when you get 180 degrees from the truth....yeah! Just my most humble opinion, but if MB is innocent in every way, why would he need his Lawyer to make that (sort of like she was asking for it) stuff up?