GBC Trial General Discussion Thread #1

[Aunty]

He said his son took the Captiva to go looking for his wife around 7.10am.

“He would have been away about half an hour I think,” he said.

He said his son left the house with his girls in the Prado he usually drove around 6.30pm

why use the Captiva to look for Allison when he usually drives the Prado? I wonder if the heaters were set to high, 30mins driving around would help dry off anything damp inside

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...ing-wife-allison/story-fnii5v70-1226951597398

We now know that
Allison arrived home first that night, because she greeted the girls when they got home.
So, The Prado was parked behind the Captive that night.
But, GBC took the Captiva after his father arrived.??
If he was so worried about finding Allison, why spend time moving the cars?
Or had they already been moved in the middle of the night, when GBC was asleep? Hmmm

 

[ozazure]

Odd stuff one thinks about when one does ironing, ......

Why was Gerard so utterly determined to stay in this marriage?? he tells people this.. counsellor, office staff, Alison, the kids, ....even told the police this yarn.. .

He tells Toni he cant divorce just yet as he cant afford it. He actually couldn't afford to stay married either, so huge were his debts.. He had the ever waiting and ever adoring Toni , who could be fobbed off and manipulated for ever, really. All her deadlines didn't seem to carry much power..

What was the reason for hanging in there?? till it reached murder, I mean.. he could have got out, he could have walked away.. I cant figure out who his real audience was..

When his last resort, presumably Flegg, since no one else has come forward as one of Gerards potential lenders after Flegg , knocked him back, what made him continue with the façade, the play, the scripted stuff, re my business, my wife, etc..??

Interesting to ponder! You have to wonder about his family of origin, what his expectations were of Allison when it came to his financial mismanagement and infidelity, was she meant to just stoically put up with it? I think her inability to do so, which likely manifested as depression and attending counselling and demanding reasonable things like Toni be fired, were not his script of preference. They were meant to play happy families and if they couldn't, his next role was playing the part of the repentant loving hubby.

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

Marlywings are we allowed to substitute profanity with the words 'Koppers logs'?

If so... What a bunch of Koppers logs.

:floorlaugh: My Avatar must have subliminal messages going on then..

Quick refresh though about said KL's (koppers Logs for the uninitiated)
Was it the Prado that nudged the Koppers Logs? Having a Vague moment here.. He did have a bingle with the Prado at some point in the week or 2 before Allison went missing didn't he? I just noticed a ding in one of the pictures in the last thread I think, and it reminded me. Irrelevant probably, but just jogged my memory of there being talk of a prang with the Prado at some point.

 

[ozazure]

I have always thought that Alison was fully aware that Toni would be at the conference.. things in that business are not secret, as Gerard found out only too well.. scuttlebutt is passed around, and Alison was right there in the office to pick up these things... possibly that's why she had her hair done.. possibly that's why she arranged to go with Kate Rankin.. a bit of backup, so to speak..

I don't buy for one single second Toni's story that she felt Alison deserved to know that she, Toni would be there.. like it's Look After Alison Day for Toni?? I don't think so... she didn't want Alison cramping her style.. which.. naturally ,Alison would have quite unconsciously....

I am not deliberately stalking your posts Trooper, I just like the way you think LOL I don't think Allison was likely intimidated by Toni, it was the other way around. Allison was made of tough stuff to go work where her husband had conducted his affair. She was going with a colleague who she seemed friendly with, she had won the last round, publicly at least. I just reread the bail documents and she said she felt sick upon hearing she was going. Why did she want Allison to know she was going? To avoid a confrontation I imagine.

Can anyone recall what document the gym/lady of leisure and subsequent phone calls to gbc was in? I just scanned through Toni's and cant see it.

 

[wewillgetyou]

Just a quick post - I went to court today as well. My observations in point form for ease of posting and so I can just put them as I remember, not in any specific order ( sorry )

* if you want to go and sit in on the trial - go early and line up. It's a mad house !

* the interviews shown today of the girls taken in June were at the Surfers Paradise police station. They were interviewed by 2 women child protection officers. They were just lovely with the girls.

* an interview shown at the indooroopilly police station in April was by 2 male interviewers. Very gentle questioning.

* lots of supporters for Alison today. More arrived after lunch for both sides and at one stage it looked like the public gallery was going to be filled with just relatives. ( of both sides )

* I thought Mrs BC was trying to appear happy but looked terrible. Eyes puffy under her makeup.

* Olivia's husband was in the courtroom.

* the BC clan didn't arrive until quite late this morning, walking in not long before proceedings started.

* Nigel Nigel Nigel :banghead:..... My guess is he will be saying a lot of "I don't recall" How convenient he doesn't have a police statement to jog his memory.

* when he corrected the Prosecutor for the name pronunciation I could not believe my ears. What a hide !

* when he mentioned about going to the BC house and Alison having the curtains drawn and lying on the couch I saw some of her friends look in shock at each other then shake their heads quietly chuckling. My impression of that was they thought he was making it up.

* He made sure to make mention if Allisons 'depression' very early in the questioning.

* the prosecutor asking him the questions wasn't Danny Boyle. In fact Danny Boyle only returned to the room about half way through the questioning.

He asked the questions clearly and with no break between. Nigel didn't really have time to think when giving an answer. A couple of times he asked him to repeat a question and in my opinion only was he was madly trying to give himself time to think of an answer.

Occasionally he took time to think before he would answer the question.

The prosecutor gave him alllll the time he wanted to answer questions and just let him ramble on when he wanted to ( let him dig a nice deep hole for himself )

Nigel couldn't recall if Olivia and the children were present at their house for the play / swim/ BBQ on the evening of the 19th. Further in the questioning the prosecutor said something to the effect of that afternoon were the children of OW all playing with the BC children and he said yes !

It was 'Robs' house that Gerard wanted prepared for the Saturday. Nigel was going to vacuum and water the plants on the Friday. He offered to help Gerrard with anything on the Friday while GBC was with the police and this is what GBC asked him to do.

The evening of the 18th of April both Nigel and Elaine babysat whilst GBC and Allison went out for a quick coffee. The girls were already in bed when they arrived. When they arrived back home the 4 of them sat around talking about the new nephew that had been born that day in Canada.

Bwana was well spoken with a South African accent.

That's all I can remember for the moment. May add more tomorrow as I think of it. Apologies for any grammar or spelling errors , I'm really tired :blushing:

 

[Zim]

From all accounts, the surname his son Gerard was christened with would have been CLAY (changed to Baden-Clay much later)!

Not quite.
Nigel changed his surname from Clay to Baden-Clay in 1969 just before his marriage to Elaine.

 

[Zim]

I wonder if he had the three children re baptised as Baden-Clay's when he changed it by deed poll.. and his and Elaine as well..


Otherwise how would God know who was knocking on St Peters Gate??

God... ' hmm.. no Baden Clays here on the list.. I have 5 Clays.. ..hmm'

Trooper, Nige changed his name before he married Elaine in 1969. All offspring are Baden-Clay.
I doubt any of them will be knocking at any Pearly gates (except perhaps Adam)

 

[Snails]

I am not deliberately stalking your posts Trooper, I just like the way you think LOL I don't think Allison was likely intimidated by Toni, it was the other way around. Allison was made of tough stuff to go work where her husband had conducted his affair. She was going with a colleague who she seemed friendly with, she had won the last round, publicly at least. I just reread the bail documents and she said she felt sick upon hearing she was going. Why did she want Allison to know she was going? To avoid a confrontation I imagine.



Can anyone recall what document the gym/lady of leisure and subsequent phone calls to gbc was in? I just scanned through Toni's and cant see it.

I have just been through T McH's statements again for a refresher and I think it was in statement #4.



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[Snails]

I am not deliberately stalking your posts Trooper, I just like the way you think LOL I don't think Allison was likely intimidated by Toni, it was the other way around. Allison was made of tough stuff to go work where her husband had conducted his affair. She was going with a colleague who she seemed friendly with, she had won the last round, publicly at least. I just reread the bail documents and she said she felt sick upon hearing she was going. Why did she want Allison to know she was going? To avoid a confrontation I imagine.



Can anyone recall what document the gym/lady of leisure and subsequent phone calls to gbc was in? I just scanned through Toni's and cant see it.

In fact, I'm reading ALL the statements again as there is so much information in there. Highly recommended.


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[alioop]

Okay. The prosecution hasn't exactly set the world on fire yet, and unless they have a massive trick up their sleeve, then this is what it will come down to (and it may be enough depending on the strength of the witnesses):

(1) The scratches. Let's face it - this is the most obvious physical evidence, captured via camera and therefore indelible. Once the prosecution call up their experts about how these could NOT be caused by a razor, then screams heard/unheard by neighbours in the night cease to matter as much.

(2) The blood in the car. How much? It seems as though the interviews with the girls may prove crucial in setting up this line of argument (ie new car, none of us had ever been in the back, nothing special was ever kept in the back etc). That said, the evidence presented at the committal hearing wasn't overly compelling. Maybe they have better experts to speak now?

(3) The botanical material in Allison's hair. You know what? It may well come down to this. This ccould clinch it. I take back everything I ever said about those nerdy science types at school.

Thoughts, peeps?

I agree Radster, Ok so the prosecution are just presenting one witness after another and it doesn't seem like there are any gotcha moments but they are slowly building their case. The jury will have plenty of time to think about the evidence and look through the transcripts of each witness. Closing arguments will also pull the prosecutions case together and direct their focus on how they should view the evidence.

So far it appears from the girls evidence that Allison was at home when they went to bed, watching TV and GBC was there too. Allison ended up dead under a bridge 14kms away and that the cause of death was determined not to be from natural causes. Female screams were heard that night and her blood and hair were found in the boot area of the new captiva. GBC rang his family and the police way too early for a missing person presumed to be slightly late from a walk, then as soon as his father arrives he goes off somewhere in the captiva for 30 mins. Then when the police look in it later there are toys in the back that the girls say had not been in there and were going to be collected. He has fresh scratch like marks on his face that are very suspicious and I doubt if the defence will find anyone to say they are made by that razor. Allison has foliage from the carport area in her hair and clothes, having had her hair freshly done that evening. GBC had the means, opportunity and motive to kill his wife. That the girls may not have heard anything that night is not going to get him off. Kids can sleep very soundly. I am not buying into speculation that he drugged them.

Still lots of evidence to come. Nigel should not be discussing his evidence with anyone as he is in the middle of it, but thats impossible to monitor. I think the jury would be wary of his evidence given that he is the accused's father.

So suggest everyone sit back and stay calm. As to what is on tomorrow, it is legal argument so it could be anything about the conduct of the case. Could be to do with the media or evidence.

 

[marlywings]

I am not deliberately stalking your posts Trooper, I just like the way you think LOL I don't think Allison was likely intimidated by Toni, it was the other way around. Allison was made of tough stuff to go work where her husband had conducted his affair. She was going with a colleague who she seemed friendly with, she had won the last round, publicly at least. I just reread the bail documents and she said she felt sick upon hearing she was going. Why did she want Allison to know she was going? To avoid a confrontation I imagine.

Can anyone recall what document the gym/lady of leisure and subsequent phone calls to gbc was in? I just scanned through Toni's and cant see it.

December 16, 2012

FACE to face in a suburban gym, Allison Baden-Clay and her husband's mistress Toni McHugh stared mutely at each other.

The pair had rarely crossed paths before the chance encounter, which came just weeks after Mrs Baden-Clay found out about her husband's affair. Court documents, lodged as part of accused killer Gerard Baden-Clay's failed bail application on Friday, reveal how both women were lost for words.

"Nothing was said, we just looked at one another," Ms McHugh says in one of four signed police statements.

After the encounter, both women vented their anger on Baden-Clay in text messages.

"I may have used the term that Allison was a lady of leisure in the text message," Ms McHugh told police.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/wi...ndooroopilly-gym/story-e6freuy9-1226537628016

 

[Fuskier]

Just a quick post - I went to court today as well. My observations in point form for ease of posting and so I can just put them as I remember, not in any specific order ( sorry )

<respectfully snipped>

That's all I can remember for the moment. May add more tomorrow as I think of it. Apologies for any grammar or spelling errors , I'm really tired :blushing:

A big thank you for coming here to post after such a tiring day WeWillGetYou.:seeya: Some well earned rest is in order methinks.

 

[marlywings]

I have just been through T McH's statements again for a refresher and I think it was in statement #4.



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Full text about "lady of leisure".

27. In relation to paragraph 25, one of the only times that Allison and I was confronted by each other, was at the Indooroopilly Workout Gym at 138 Witton Road, Indooroopilly. This encounter occurred about two weeks after Gerard and I broke up. I was with a Personal Trainer in conversation and Allison was at the counter with her smallest child E. Nothing was said, we just looked at one another, I froze and tried to continue the conversation with the trainer as long as possible, hoping she would leave. We then both sent abusive text messages to Gerard within minutes of each other. I know this as Gerard told me. I may have used the term that Allison was a lady of leisure in the text message. I cannot recall the rest of what I said. That may have been all I actually said. I don't know what Allison said to Gerard in her message. Gerard never showed me or told me what she had said, just that she had sent him an abusive text message.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9048162&postcount=17"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Bail Hearing Documents *No Discussion*[/ame]

 

[Champagne4lulu]

I have a theory on the reported sounds the neighbours heard vs the kids not hearing anything.

Let's say after the oldest girl gets her drink of water, ABC goes down stairs to speak to GBC. They start chatting about possibly the conference and things get heated. Maybe physical. This could explain the screams and shouts.

The tv is still on upstairs so possibly drowns out this noise. This teamed with kids abilities of being able to sleep through unimaginable noise, AND possibly the location/wind/acoustics mean they do not hear anything that wakes them.

Things continue to escalate, the neighbours hear more yelling, screams. Scraps the dog loses his mind and, the rest is as the prosecution has alluded to.

That's how I see it possibly tying together?!?

Off that topic, I'm trying to keep an open mind. But if I was on that jury, I'd be having doubts on his guilt so far. I hope, and deep down believe, that they have more consequential stuff to bring up, but overall it feels like both sides are being a bit soft and not really jumping on anyone or anything.

Perhaps I've watched too many movies and not enough real life cases but this seems very blasé. I thought it might be a bit more aggressive and empassioned?

 

[Champagne4lulu]

And another thing on why she ended up in her workout gear... In the past if I've had to get up super early to work out in the morning (which ABC would have had to do because if the conference), I would sometimes put my workout gear on and sleep in that. Or perhaps she decided to go for a walk that night as she had to leave early the next morning?

Come to think of it, I seem to remember early on that her friends and family said she was not a walker. Or was I imagining that?

 

[KG1]

I wonder if he had the three children re baptised as Baden-Clay's when he changed it by deed poll.. and his and Elaine as well..


Otherwise how would God know who was knocking on St Peters Gate??

God... ' hmm.. no Baden Clays here on the list.. I have 5 Clays.. ..hmm'

Trooper, Trooper, Trooper!:loveyou::loveyou::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[Seeking]

I am not deliberately stalking your posts Trooper, I just like the way you think LOL I don't think Allison was likely intimidated by Toni, it was the other way around. Allison was made of tough stuff to go work where her husband had conducted his affair. She was going with a colleague who she seemed friendly with, she had won the last round, publicly at least. I just reread the bail documents and she said she felt sick upon hearing she was going. Why did she want Allison to know she was going? To avoid a confrontation I imagine.

Can anyone recall what document the gym/lady of leisure and subsequent phone calls to gbc was in? I just scanned through Toni's and cant see it.

I feel that TM would have felt "sick at the thought of encountering Allison at the conference", because deep down she would have truly felt shame in knowing that her relationship with GBC wasn't right as he was still married to Allison. Seeing Allison would have reminded her of the wrong. By not encountering Allison she could in some ways avoid the feelings of shame. She could just play the game of justifying that the relationship was right. This is all my humble opinion. No matter how much people try and justify their actions it is impossible for people to not feel shame when they are doing something they know isn't right.

 

[Thinking]

Re Wednesday night 18 April, it seems a bit odd for Allison and G to call grandparents over to babysit so they can go out for coffee, which then only lasts half an hour or so (according to NBC? If kids are in bed anyway, why not just have coffee and chat at home rather than going to all that trouble for a half hour coffee somewhere out. Maybe irrelevant, just seems a bit weird to me.

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

Re Wednesday night 18 April, it seems a bit odd for Allison and G to call grandparents over to babysit so they can go out for coffee, which then only lasts half an hour or so (according to NBC? If kids are in bed anyway, why not just have coffee and chat at home rather than going to all that trouble for a half hour coffee somewhere out. Maybe irrelevant, just seems a bit weird to me.

It had me wondering if this is when one of their 15 minute(not sure if I got that right) chats/discussions occured that was part of their marriage counselling. Maybe they went somewhere to do this as they did not want to do it with kids in earshot?

 

[they'll get you]

Wendy Mollah seemed a special friend to Allison, why wasn't she asked if Allison walked night or morning or if she did at all? She knew about gerRed's sowing the wild seed and she had the guts to front up. That lady's got spine. Why wasn't she asked more questions about Allison feelings thoughts and fears.
It's now too late, she's off the stand.