The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 19th June - Trial Day 7, Week 2

[LadyBird1]

You're right in terms of lack of heartbeat resulting in a lack of pumping blood. But blood in the veins (as opposed to arteries), particularly peripheral veins (just under the skin) can flow out if injured, for some time after death. It's darker blood, and will tend to pool or dribble, as opposed to the usual arterial "spurter" so well known by surgeons (!) and TV audiences

The amount of blood in the back of the Captiva was small, so could feasibly have come from a small tear in a peripheral vein or even the scalp, lip, a bang on the nose, eyebrow, chin, etc. This could quite feasibly have occurred after death - but very shortly after.

The fact that the blood in the car was only on the side and not in the middle could be due to EITHER the injury being of an extremity (foot or head), OR that the rest of the body was covered by something or was lying on something (eg a tarp).

But when all said and done, the amount of blood was really quite small. And as I have suggested on here before on a few occasions, and which was confirmed by the forensic scientist in the witness box today or yesterday, there is no way to "date" or "age" blood after that first hour or two, to say how long it's been there. That could be a flaw in the prosecution argument.

However, the hair, which appears to be stuck IN the blood, is another matter. And especially if it showed evidence of the hairdresser's the night before....

However, the hair, which appears to be stuck IN the blood, is another matter. And especially if it showed evidence of the hairdresser's the night before....

Smoking gun..... A single hair ....

 

[linette]

I think - and hope - he's gone. Remembering that unless we're actually there, we are only seeing the tweets, not the full context of the material being put in front of the jury; I think Prosecution is slowly but surely building a picture through a collection of circumstantial evidence that any REASONABLE person would have to conclude: ( insert sound of banging gavel here) Guilty

Have faith.

You are right Tishy. Any reasonable person would have to see what happened.

 

[nimrod_135]

Wow that Lloyd Rayney case has some striking similarities to this case!

http://www.supremecourt.wa.gov.au/_files/Judgment_Summary_Rayney.pdf

 

[Stick]

Sorry to jump ahead, but so far phone records have not been analysed during the trial.

I'm sure this has been discussed on previous threads but does anyone have thoughts on how Allison's phone bill showed a "Mobile WAP/Internet" session, picked up by the Fig Tree Pocket tower at 6.31am on the morning of her disappearance?

Is it possible that "someone" switched her phone on, and emails, messages etc were auto-uploaded, and that this alleged "someone" was disposing of her phone, while purportedly "out looking for her"?

I'm not super tech-savvy, but surely the timing indicates that someone accessed her phone at that particular time. But also not at her home (or Kholo Bridge) but near the Fig Tree Pocket tower?

Does anyone know if the range of the Fig Tree Pocket tower has been reported?

Sorry to rehash old news, but this is something I have been waiting to hear more about...

 

[Mountain Misst]

However, the hair, which appears to be stuck IN the blood, is another matter. And especially if it showed evidence of the hairdresser's the night before....

Smoking gun..... A single hair ....

LB1. I seem to remember that the hair sample didn't contain the root and so it couldn't be DNA tested to confirm that it was Allison's. DW would remember.

 

[Amee]

Both the vacuum & the hose...

Text copied from Constable Kieron Ash's statement....

29. Whilst still standing outside and at the bottom of the stairs, Gerard's father Nigel BADEN-CLAY then came down stairs and went underneath the house and came back out with a vacuum cleaner and a green garden hose and began to load these items into the rear boot of the Holden statesman. The Gerard also came downstairs and told me that he had arranged for his father to give him a hand doing some odd real estate jobs today and needed the hose vaccuum cleaner.

30. Sergeant JACKSON then appeared at the top of the stairs and informed me that he did not want any one else to leave the premises and not to allow Nigel BADEN-CLAY to continue putting things in the Holden Statesman. Sergeant JACKSON then called out to Nigel BADEN-CLAY and told him that he didn't want any one to leave and not to move any more items from the house.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Bail Hearing Documents *No Discussion*

He said, ‘The vacuum is in the car and so is a hose pipe, so if you’d like to just go and get them out of my Prado ... it would be a great help.’ :liar:

“I took the vacuum cleaner and the hose pipe and put them in the boot of my car. I was about to leave and go and do these little jobs and the police constable asked me to stay where I was and not to take the car.’’


Mr Fuller said police arrived at 7.30am and noticed three cars parked in the driveway

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ry-of-depression/story-fnihsrf2-1226952434491

 

[DunnoZo]

Both the vacuum & the hose...

Text copied from Constable Kieron Ash's statement....

29. Whilst still standing outside and at the bottom of the stairs, Gerard's father Nigel BADEN-CLAY then came down stairs and went underneath the house and came back out with a vacuum cleaner and a green garden hose and began to load these items into the rear boot of the Holden statesman. The Gerard also came downstairs and told me that he had arranged for his father to give him a hand doing some odd real estate jobs today and needed the hose vaccuum cleaner.

30. Sergeant JACKSON then appeared at the top of the stairs and informed me that he did not want any one else to leave the premises and not to allow Nigel BADEN-CLAY to continue putting things in the Holden Statesman. Sergeant JACKSON then called out to Nigel BADEN-CLAY and told him that he didn't want any one to leave and not to move any more items from the house.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Bail Hearing Documents *No Discussion*

Thanks Marly.
I wonder what G's schedule looked like that day if all the hoopla with the hole didn't happen. Did he really need dad's help with vacuuming? Was he so busy if business was bad? would he have gone underneath the house and come back out if the police were arriving? really? What's in the bag? There are so many things that have had opportunity to come up in court, but they seem near misses to me . Hope it gets pulled together in the end. Welcome back to all you oldies…(Squizz dying to ask if you happen to know any of the witnesses personally????) can I ask that? :coffeews:

 

[louisepiglet]

Both the vacuum & the hose...

Text copied from Constable Kieron Ash's statement....

29. Whilst still standing outside and at the bottom of the stairs, Gerard's father Nigel BADEN-CLAY then came down stairs and went underneath the house and came back out with a vacuum cleaner and a green garden hose and began to load these items into the rear boot of the Holden statesman. The Gerard also came downstairs and told me that he had arranged for his father to give him a hand doing some odd real estate jobs today and needed the hose vaccuum cleaner.

30. Sergeant JACKSON then appeared at the top of the stairs and informed me that he did not want any one else to leave the premises and not to allow Nigel BADEN-CLAY to continue putting things in the Holden Statesman. Sergeant JACKSON then called out to Nigel BADEN-CLAY and told him that he didn't want any one to leave and not to move any more items from the house.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Bail Hearing Documents *No Discussion*

Bet that got up NBC's nose. Who do these police think they are? Don't they know who I am?

 

[possumheart]

OH THE IRONY before the tragedy

You know .. all this business about 'family name' and Allison and Gerard wanting a boy and all this nonsense as if they are some kind of noble family is such utter and complete rubbish .. they were BARELY middle class .. actually in reality they were sliding down fast .. they couldn't afford the school their girls went to, Gerard who was in the industry but hadn't even bought them a family home .. they were in the hole financially and things were getting worse .. it was all a complete illusion .. but it was just so important to them .. sorry, but really?? Talk about appearances over reality. Honestly .. does it even really matter, is it so important to appear to have some kind of social success when in reality your life is a disaster?

How much did this need to 'keep up appearances' play into this tragedy .. I'd suggest a fair bit, is it why Allison didn't speak the truth of her marriage .. was she in denial, or did she know the truth, but didn't know how to tell others, or did she want to keep up appearances herself? Did Gerard go from zero to murder in one night, or had he been physically abusing her for years? What amount of emotional abuse (beyond humiliating her with numerous affairs) went on? How many secrets was Allison keeping, and what stopped her from reaching out for help to the people in her life? When she reached out to a professional she was handed a packet of pills with no attempt to dig into the cause for her distress, as if there is some kind of agreement never to open up a can of worms which could pull down a charade, what a shame.

People looking in from the outside think the leafy middle class suburbs are just as perfect as they seem, but what a social disaster. How many women suffer in silence in order to maintain an illusion? Where do they go for help? Do they tell their friends that they've been trying to impress since high school that things are a disaster, do they go down to centerlink and start finding their way around the social welfare system to support themselves and their kids if they leave or get dumped for a younger woman, do they dust off unused degrees obtained decades ago and hope to find a job with no experience, if in physical danger do they reach out to a women's shelter if they need a safe place?

I guess what I am saying is that this sad need to appear to be living the dream can be incredibly dangerous once you put it above the truth .. Allison's instincts were SCREAMING at her, yet she still didn't leave or reach out, and Gerard was just as miserable .. wanting to leave, but not feeling like he could either and this whole thing has ended in tragedy.

Who really cares what car you drive, what suburb you live in, whether or not your picture perfect marriage turned out to be a joke, put your kids in public school if you can't afford the private one (it might save them from trying to fit an image that's all an illusion themselves one day) find a way, be happy, or at least be honest and safe.

Quoting his great-grandfather Robert Baden-Powell, the famed founder of the Scout movement, he told the senior class of 2008 and their parents that success equated to happiness.

"What is success?" he said.

"We were put into this world of wonders and beauty with a special ability to appreciate them, and also in being able to help other people instead of over reaching them and, through it all, to enjoy life ... and to be happy.

"That is what I count as success, to be happy."

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/from-role-model-to-accused-murderer-20120615-20fa5.html#ixzz358WgI8Ug

 

[Mrs G Norris]

OH THE IRONY before the tragedy

Love how he never misses an opportunity to drop that name :floorlaugh:

 

[louisepiglet]

If I was a juror I would be very interested in the plant matter in her hair that came from their property. The poor woman had just had her hair done. No way she would have left this stuff in her hair if it had got their by accident (say by brushing against a shrub or tripping).
To me this means she was not in a position to remove it. But her body was found at Kholo Creek. How did she get there. 14kms is a long distance to walk. Along with those fingernail scratches I think I would be inclined toward guilty. Here's hoping anyway.

 

[BJsleuth]

My question refers to the picture with the blood with the right angled measuring stick. In the corner of that measuring stick there is a recession in the wall of the car with a ring type structure in it. Can anyone tell me what exactly this is please.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-20/back-seat-of-baden-clay-holden-captiva-with-stains/4584092

This pic?

 

[squizzey1]

Thanks Marly.
I wonder what G's schedule looked like that day if all the hoopla with the hole didn't happen. Did he really need dad's help with vacuuming? Was he so busy if business was bad? would he have gone underneath the house and come back out if the police were arriving? really? What's in the bag? There are so many things that have had opportunity to come up in court, but they seem near misses to me . Hope it gets pulled together in the end. Welcome back to all you oldies…(Squizz dying to ask if you happen to know any of the witnesses personally????) can I ask that? :coffeews:

yes I do, but not terribly well and wont say which one/ones if that's fair:fence:

 

[louisepiglet]

Mrs G Norris, the girls school Brookfield State Primary School is a government school not a private one.

I might be wrong here but I think I remember reading that the girls had attended a private school but had been moved to the public school. But my memory lately has been VERY poor. Menopause sucks.

 

[DrWatson]

LB1. I seem to remember that the hair sample didn't contain the root and so it couldn't be DNA tested to confirm that it was Allison's. DW would remember.

Morning MM

From Todd Fuller's opening address:

"He said a hair attached to the blood stain was later confirmed with DNA as belonging to Ms Baden-Clay."

 

[Amee]

Thanks Marly.
I wonder what G's schedule looked like that day if all the hoopla with the hole didn't happen. Did he really need dad's help with vacuuming? Was he so busy if business was bad? would he have gone underneath the house and come back out if the police were arriving? really? What's in the bag? There are so many things that have had opportunity to come up in court, but they seem near misses to me . Hope it gets pulled together in the end. Welcome back to all you oldies…(Squizz dying to ask if you happen to know any of the witnesses personally????) can I ask that? :coffeews:

GBC said the property (he cut his hand) in was going to be launched today (Fri)
He also told Con Simmons , house was washed and cleaned and the....
It was photographed yesterday.(Thurs)

This is in transcript of interview with Con Simmons

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171094&page=10

 

[squizzey1]

I might be wrong here but I think I remember reading that the girls had attended a private school but had been moved to the public school. But my memory lately has been VERY poor. Menopause sucks.

never been to a private school , my granddaughter is in same class as the middle one and has been for some years

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Mrs G Norris, the girls school Brookfield State Primary School is a government school not a private one.

Ah yes .. they were only planning to send the girls to a school they couldn't afford .. :banghead:

ALLISON Baden-Clay's family is raising money to send her daughters to Ipswich Girl's Grammar School where Allison was educated.

Allison's family has thrown its arms around her daughters HBC, SBC and EBC as her murder remains a mystery.

Her Ipswich cousin Leah Moore said the family had united to raise money for the girls.

"Allison's dream was to send the girls to Ipswich Girl's Grammar School so that's our aim, to ensure they do," Ms Moore said.

http://www.qt.com.au/news/allison-always-wanted-ipswich-for-her-girls/1394320/

 

[Humdinger]

I keep wondering what I'd think if I were on the jury... It's really hard because I already believed him guilty.

I try to put that aside and look at
*Scratches
*Blood in car
*Plant matter in hair

I think that's enough because those 3 facts are irrefutable IMO and they are damning IMO.

But then I wonder if, as a juror, and knowing nothing else, how would I see it?

Closing statements will be interesting!

 

[Consider]

You know .. all this business about 'family name' and Allison and Gerard wanting a boy and all this nonsense as if they are some kind of noble family is such utter and complete rubbish .. they were BARELY middle class .. actually in reality they were sliding down fast .. they couldn't afford the school their girls went to, Gerard who was in the industry but hadn't even bought them a family home .. they were in the hole financially and things were getting worse .. it was all a complete illusion .. but it was just so important to them .. sorry, but really?? Talk about appearances over reality. Honestly .. does it even really matter, is it so important to appear to have some kind of social success when in reality your life is a disaster?

How much did this need to 'keep up appearances' play into this tragedy .. I'd suggest a fair bit, is it why Allison didn't speak the truth of her marriage .. was she in denial, or did she know the truth, but didn't know how to tell others, or did she want to keep up appearances herself? Did Gerard go from zero to murder in one night, or had he been physically abusing her for years? What amount of emotional abuse (beyond humiliating her with numerous affairs) went on? How many secrets was Allison keeping, and what stopped her from reaching out for help to the people in her life? When she reached out to a professional she was handed a packet of pills with no attempt to dig into the cause for her distress, as if there is some kind of agreement never to open up a can of worms which could pull down a charade, what a shame.

People looking in from the outside think the leafy middle class suburbs are just as perfect as they seem, but what a social disaster. How many women suffer in silence in order to maintain an illusion? Where do they go for help? Do they tell their friends that they've been trying to impress since high school that things are a disaster, do they go down to centerlink and start finding their way around the social welfare system to support themselves and their kids if they leave or get dumped for a younger woman, do they dust off unused degrees obtained decades ago and hope to find a job with no experience, if in physical danger do they reach out to a women's shelter if they need a safe place?

I guess what I am saying is that this sad need to appear to be living the dream can be incredibly dangerous once you put it above the truth .. Allison's instincts were SCREAMING at her, yet she still didn't leave or reach out, and Gerard was just as miserable .. wanting to leave, but not feeling like he could either and this whole thing has ended in tragedy.

Who really cares what car you drive, what suburb you live in, whether or not your picture perfect marriage turned out to be a joke, put your kids in public school if you can't afford the private one (it might save them from trying to fit an image that's all an illusion themselves one day) find a way, be happy, or at least be honest and safe.

So true.
Sadly my exact experience and my ex grew up having once lived in Brookfield.
In my case my father-in-law (very old school, pretentious voice with no financial success of his own) to this day lives with my 50yr old ex (and my "pretty, firm and 10 year younger replacement).

NBC was too involved in his son's life and and unfair expectations re the family name I suspect.

In my circumstances - refuge helped, centrelink too, lawyers invoices soaked up settlement so no deposit for a roof over our heads of our own, we rent.

He 'forgot' these past few years to make seeing the kids a priority beyond a few hours each year - so that and having control of the remote control, being allowed to express their opinions and not seeing me be 'hurt' by him anymore is priceless freedom we never dared dream of. Heehee.

There are no friends or family to reach out to though. He eneded those a decade ago and sadly some people thought we were 'successful' (and so,are naturally fairly pleased I/we came unstuck I suspect) with our 'appearance' (we were not successful on any level in hindsight but certainly had the look of it!).

The double degree as you say needed dusting off and isn't worth it's stamp today. The future? Who knows - I trust no one and men? Forget about it.

But after tears and managing thoughts without any form of medication I continue to stand up in court and fight off all his new challenges.

Keeping us housed, fed, healthy and happy until all adults and truly free of him is priority.

If my daughter were forced to spend alternate weeks alone with him - I don't know that leaving would have been an intelligent decision. I stayed to protect her from ever being left for even an hour in his sole care - emotional and psychological damage are hard to prove when a man 'appears' to have so much to offer as opposed to an old, suddenly single mum...

We left, months later Allison went missing. I relate to aspects of her life reported but more to what I suspect never will be.