The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 26th June - Trial Day 11, Week 3

[marlywings]

Point taken, Possum.

And it's also very close to the Tyamolum Scout camp - a place that is familiar to both of them. But that wouldn't really be a reason to think "OK - I'm going to top myself. I'll just swallow this packet of pills, then I might walk to the scout camp and jump into Kholo Creek." She would have had to walk over the bridge across Moggill Creek in the middle of Brookfield at the beginning of her walk.....

My thoughts on why Kholo are that "someone" was possibly aware of the way police operate when doing missing person searches. Police work to a manual, search close to where the person was last seen, once that area has been covered they expand the area. There was another map in one of the trial reports which I'll locate it later but this one was posted back in 2012.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7892782&postcount=19"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AU-Allison Baden-Clay,43,Brisbane QLD, 19April2012 MEDIA/TIMELINE LINKS,NO DISCUSSION[/ame]

 

[possumheart]

Oh no - she swam in Kholo for exercise and got the cats claw creeper in her hair. Because she knew GBC was going to put the hot rollers on for her the next morning!:tantrum:

Allison was terrified of swimming.

 

[alioop]

Forgive me as I'm an infrequent visitor to these forums but I can only assume that your status as "Verified Attorney" indicates you are indeed a practicing lawyer. Whilst I respect your opinion as a legal practitioner, I have to disagree with much of the content in the above post.

You find it hard to believe that someone who seemed "fine" only hours before is/was capable of attempting self harm but yet we see it literally every single day. How often do you hear of a high profile suicide where friends and family express their dismay at the fact that the victim displayed no outward signs that they were contemplating ending their life? So often it happens after a person has seemingly overcome previous obstacles, I do not speak lightly of this as members of my own family have committed suicide but the facts remain that someone who appears outwardly happy is more than capable of ending their life. I would bet my last dollar that this will be thoroughly addressed by the forensic psychiatrist when they are called to give evidence.

You are correct in saying there is no physiological evidence to suggest that Allison jumped but is it also fair to say there is also no physiological evidence that she was the victim of a homicide? Of course this doesn't exclude either scenario, indeed barring an accident one of the scenarios did in fact occur but in my mind there is tremendous doubt, at least from a legal point of view.

While I'm sure the prosecution would have expected the defence to call certain witnesses after the rejection of their no case submission last night, I can't imagine that they would have been delighted at the prospect and when GBC elected to give evidence there would have been a collective groan throughout the prosecution team. Byrne QC is not an idiot, he knows the prosecution case is extremely weak (as evidenced by the submission yesterday afternoon, which I don't believe was without merit) and there is not a chance that he would risk the strong position of the defence if he wasn't confident that GBC and other defence witnesses could further strengthen their position.

As I've said previously, I have a strong opinion on this matter but purely from an unbiased perspective I believe the prosecution are up the creek without a paddle at this point

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. We all share our opinions here, it makes for robust discussion. At the end of the day it's the jury's opinion that is the only one that determines the verdict. Ours matters not to the outcome of the case.

 

[DrWatson]

My thoughts on why Kholo are that "someone" was possibly aware of the way police operate when doing missing person searches. Police work to a manual, search close to where the person was last seen, once that area has been covered they expand the area. There was another map in one of the trial reports which I'll locate it later but this one was posted back in 2012.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AU-Allison Baden-Clay,43,Brisbane QLD, 19April2012 MEDIA/TIMELINE LINKS,NO DISCUSSION

Thanks for that Marly - it seems so long ago now, doesn't it? That "Hot Zone" I seem to recall was where the screams were supposedly heard by the people who live on Rafting Ground Rd (I've forgotten the name), and which were later found to be skylarking kids.

 

[John Dillinger]

I actually think he's innocent. I think they had a fight and she went and committed suicide.

 

[possumheart]

Hi all! Just home from hospital and in mega pain so won't be able to catch up tonight- can anyone give me a brief update on what's happened today??? Suspense is killing me!!!! Pretty please??

Gerard took the stand, burst into tears, and rabbited on about how fabulous he was as the husband of a depressed woman, how TM meant nothing to him, talked about what a great businessman he was, and proceeded to conduct the travel slide night from hell, with no slides until they shut him down until next week.

ETA: And said he wasn't proud of his extramaritals and failed to justify them by trying to give them a context. For TM, the genesis was his attempts to counsel her.

 

[Neuromancer]

Something I just saw pointed out on another forum - in today's ramble, GBC described in some detail the pyjamas Allison was wearing when he "last saw her on the couch", yet he was also able to exactly describe for the police the next day the (different) walking outfit she was found in.

 

[Neuromancer]

Hi all! Just home from hospital and in mega pain so won't be able to catch up tonight- can anyone give me a brief update on what's happened today??? Suspense is killing me!!!! Pretty please??

Brief? :floorlaugh:
Brief??? :floorlaugh:

Glad you got thru the day ok IG - keep the painkillers up

But yeah what Possum said. His barrister told his story for him for a couple of hours. then they let Gerry baby loose for the rest of the day to tell us where he was when Princess Di died, where he was when Grant Hackett won something-or-other, and how incredibly fabulous he is, and how much Allison was a failure as a wife and mother. I think he got up to about 2009.

 

[marlywings]

Thanks for that Marly - it seems so long ago now, doesn't it? That "Hot Zone" I seem to recall was where the screams were supposedly heard by the people who live on Rafting Ground Rd (I've forgotten the name), and which were later found to be skylarking kids.

The skylarking kids was speculation...there was no report which confirmed that.

 

[Sowhodidit?]

Such a whizz band, hot shot leader. Olivia told me to call police, Dad told me to get a lawyer. It's Toni's fault I said I'd be seperated July 1 because she just wouldn't quit nagging (but it was over with her in October 2011, except I was still giving her the impression that we had a future as well as giving Allison that impression too, but it,s not my fault, they both wanted me and who could blame them? I'm a real catch you know!), it's Allison's fault I had an affair... etc.

This is gold 🌻

 

[JCB]

Actually you don't know that for a fact, that is your opinion.

If we are being drawn into semantics then yes, you are correct (however I never used the word fact). However Byrne QC would not have entertained the thought of making submissions as to no case to answer if he genuinely did not believe that the prosecution case was defective. Obviously I cannot and will not speak on his behalf but I'd be shocked if he wasn't chuffed at the defence position at the end of yesterday, and I've seen nothing damaging to the defence case today. In saying that, nothing has been said that enhances the defence case IMO but I feel that is a mere formality given the direction this trial has taken.

<modsnip>

I'm not saying he didn't do it, I am on the fence. Cause of death hasn't been given, the botanist was thorough but that doesn't point to foul play imo.
I'm just saying that comments here are quite snarky and that doesn't really leave a lot of room for having an open mind.

I was going to reply to this earlier but ran out of time.

<modsnip>

To those who are lamenting the fact that GBC is being allowed to speak at length about what they consider irrelevant matters (which would be challenged by both prosecution and Judge if they were truly irrelevant) consider this - Here is a man, a man on trial for a crime which if convicted, carries the distinct possibility of a sentence which will see him die in prison. One might make the argument that Allison was denied the most basic right of them all, the right to life but to disregard the right of the accused to a fair trial and to lead evidence on his behalf is terribly hypocritical.

As I've stated before, I have an opinion myself and for what it's worth I believe Allison has met with foul play. However if I was sitting on the jury at this point I could not say that Allison was the victim of a homicide beyond a reasonable doubt, much less that GBC was responsible for her death. Breaking it down to a few bullet points -

- No definitive cause of death (whether it be homicide, accident, suicide or natural causes)
- No crime scene
- No weapon
- Nothing that places GBC at the location of Allison's body

On this basis, I could not possibly convict and while I'm sure there will be a few dissenters at some point during deliberations, I personally believe a jury will come to the same conclusion <modsnip>

For those extolling GBC's apparent narcissistic "virtues", have you stopped to consider that whether someone who fulfils the DSM-IV criteria for NPD is capable of such elaborate concealment of both the murder scene and their whereabouts when disposing of Allison's body? Despite having some of the best investigators in the state being assigned to this case and basically unlimited monetary and technological resources at their disposal, they have been unable to locate a murder scene, weapon or place GBC at the bridge. Playing devil's advocate (although I hate that term), I don't believe that someone with NPD or even narcissistic tendencies would have the foresight to eliminate or conceal a wealth of potential forensic evidence as well as plan the disposal of the body in such a way that absolutely zero evidence was led that they were even in the remote vicinity.

Just my opinion of course, no offence intended to any posters <modsnip>

 

[DrWatson]

I actually think he's innocent. I think they had a fight and she went and committed suicide.

<modsnip> But it would be very interesting for you to share the reasoning behind your conclusions? Check my post just a little way up this thread, and I'm just wondering how some of those points fit in with your conclusion?

Just HOW did she commit suicide? It certainly wasn't by overdose of anything. And it wasn't by drowning. And it wasn't by massive head or other injury from jumping off a bridge. And how did she get to Kholo Creek anyway?

Your theory about a fight may indeed be close to the truth. But the suicide bit is a very dodgy conclusion to make on no evidence. In fact there is ample evidence that she DIDN'T commit suicide.

Would you care to share your thoughts, as they are just as valid as anyone else's?

 

[JK673]

My thoughts on why Kholo are that "someone" was possibly aware of the way police operate when doing missing person searches. Police work to a manual, search close to where the person was last seen, once that area has been covered they expand the area. There was another map in one of the trial reports which I'll locate it later but this one was posted back in 2012.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AU-Allison Baden-Clay,43,Brisbane QLD, 19April2012 MEDIA/TIMELINE LINKS,NO DISCUSSION

I honestly do not think GBC is that smart....someone else on the other hand.....I think would be...

 

[marlywings]

Thanks for that Marly - it seems so long ago now, doesn't it? That "Hot Zone" I seem to recall was where the screams were supposedly heard by the people who live on Rafting Ground Rd (I've forgotten the name), and which were later found to be skylarking kids.

April 29, 2012

Mr Truter, who went to police last Saturday after seeing news reports of the disappearance, lives in a house near Rafting Ground Rd, a half-hour walk from Mrs Baden-Clay's Brookfield Rd house.

The screams were heard about 10pm Thursday, April 19, about the same time Mrs Baden-Clay's husband, Gerard, told police he last saw his wife at their rented home.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/scream-in-the-night-alarms-residents/story-e6frep2f-1226341666902

 

[Liadan]

IppyGAL - hope you get well soon! Monday is a new day and you have the entire weekend to catchup so don't worry at all! Take you pain meds - there is never a good reason for experiencing pain!

 

[marlywings]

I honestly do not think GBC is that smart....someone else on the other hand.....I think would be...

Yes I agree....

 

[Makara]

and when GBC elected to give evidence there would have been a collective groan throughout the prosecution team. Byrne QC is not an idiot, he knows the prosecution case is extremely weak (as evidenced by the submission yesterday afternoon, which I don't believe was without merit) and there is not a chance that he would risk the strong position of the defence if he wasn't confident that GBC and other defence witnesses could further strengthen their position.

(

Respectfully snipped.

BBM. JCB I do believe that the collective groan you refer to didn't come from the prosecution at all. It came from those poor jury members who had to listen to hours of drivel from Byrne QC and GBC. Seriously, how did that strengthen the case for the defence? It didn't! GBC's ramblings made him sound like the complete idiot that he is. The fact that he is also a murderer will be proved beyond reasonable doubt within the next week or so.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Hi all! Just home from hospital and in mega pain so won't be able to catch up tonight- can anyone give me a brief update on what's happened today??? Suspense is killing me!!!! Pretty please??

I hope you feel better after a good nights sleep. :hug: Painkillers?


GBC has taken the stand, painting a picture of a long suffering husband with a depressive wife who had panic attacks and couldn't drive, he's a father who did everything except breast feed his babies, yes he said that, anywhoo, all about himself and his flight centre shares, his plans to become the director which didn't happen, then Century 21 etc, so we're stuck back in 2003/4 so far.

Stay tuned, lol, more to this episode on Monday 30 June, when GBC takes the stand once again.

 

[Jo04]

Only just catching up with today's court proceedings. Only up to when the defence attorney was saying that Toni was volatile and they're bringing in a psychiatrist and a toxicologist? And my gosh he's got a lot self importance to take the stand ( still haven't got to his testimony yet) never thought he would! Sorry couldn't keep my self from posting....so surprised!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Liadan]

Hi Ws'ers going to take a break now - but I want to thank you all and tell you that I feel so lucky to be part of a group who support and want to secure JUSTICE FOR ALLISON!