GBC Trial General Discussion Thread #3

[Fuskier]

<respectfully snipped>

Re: how Allison came to rest where she did under Kholo bridge. Makara made mention earlier of a concrete slab that appears partially down the embankment & above where Allison was positioned. I have to say, after viewing some clear professional images taken by pro photographer t/as Gerry Rocks (unfortunate coincidence on the name, but legend all the same!), I'm inclined to agree with Makara's theory that someone moved Allison's body part way down the embankment & then rolled her from the concrete slab onto the bank below. (I feel awful describing this btw).

Link to images of Kholo & BC residence taken by Gerry Rocks Photography:
http://aussiecriminals.com.au/2014/06/23/in-perspective-a-visual-look-through-the-lens/[/B

ALL IMO... under manifestation of winter flu

OR alternative hypothesis: he (& accomplice) carried her down to the concrete slab, then one took the head/arms and the other took the feet and swung her down onto the mud where she landed with a thud. My opinion only.

 

[KG1]

Thanks KG1 Good post. The Fraser Island story should never have happened. Happened because no one took heed back at Ayres Rock. 1980 - ish.
Reckon I would trust my life with a dingo though, rather than a person such as was witnessed yesterday at Brisbane Queensland Court.
Despite what may be thought, dingos do actually value life and family.
The sleuthfulness is another matter.

Yes, bit of a laughing hyena act really. :facepalm:

 

[Freya1977]

OR alternative hypothesis: he (& accomplice) carried her down to the concrete slab, then one took the head/arms and the other took the feet and swung her down onto the mud where she landed with a thud. My opinion only.

Or the sleeves of the jumper, causing it to ride up and tangle around her arms and head. Would certainly explain her arms positioned up above her head. I feel like you're onto something there...

 

[marlywings]

The evidence the Crown is basing its case on

June 28, 2014 12:00AM


WHEN the weather turns cool, the leaves of the crepe myrtle wither and die. They drop from the trees and carpet the ground.

Cat’s claw creeper, an aggressive weed that crawls across gardens with talon-like tendrils, doesn’t seem to mind a change of season.

Its leaves blanketed the Baden-Clay garden, the vine trailing along the ground, up the carport supports and along tree trunks.

It was a lush garden, overgrown with greenery – chinese elm, fishbone fern and lillipilly. Eucalypts bordered the fence in the churchyard next door.

Their leaves broke away, fluttered on a breeze and blanketed the lawn, covered the rear patio and gathered along the carport.

It is the leaves that lay rotting in a Brookfield garden that the Crown will attempt to show are important pieces of forensic evidence in its case against Gerard Baden-Clay this week.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...sing-its-case-on/story-fnihsrf2-1226969405792

 

[Bekazzled]

Thank you so much for the warm welcome, guys! I really appreciate it. Sorry for the long posts &#8211; my boss always tells me whenever I write an article, &#8220;This isn&#8217;t Tolstoy&#8221; and I laugh, &#8220;But there&#8217;s so much to discuss!&#8221; And with GBC, boy is there a lot to discuss&#8230;

Wow, thanks marlywings for the reminder about TMCH&#8217;s settlement money! Of course GBC would want that too; and prior to the trial, I&#8217;m sure she was so enamoured that she would even have put this money into his account if he asked! I wonder now whether the false halo she saw above his head has turned into devil&#8217;s ears after his testimony. He has dismissed her utterly, marginalized her as worthless, basically.

A few people have questioned what the general vibe is: do we think he&#8217;ll be found guilty, or will he walk? If you don&#8217;t mind, let me explain the broad social and cultural climate of those who live in Brisbane. Remember, GBC&#8217;s jury of peers are going to be generally representative of this attitude &#8211; not GBC&#8217;s warped mind state.

BACKGROUND: Brisbane&#8217;s population is not enormous, resembling Vancouver&#8217;s total population. I lived in Vancouver for two years and lived in various places across the states (NY and LA mostly) and also lived in Melbourne for a brief time. Brisbane is known in Australia as &#8220;a big country town&#8221; &#8211; that is, the values of most people living here involve a kind of old-world politeness and a tough spiritedness in nature, but people are also very modern in terms of upholding the rights of individuals and awareness of modern issues (like the prevalence of anxiety and depression in society). Brisbane is sort of place where strangers going on walks will say hello to each other in passing and smile. (This shocked me after years of living in Vancouver and Melbourne, where people are polite, but not to the chatty-friendly extent of Brisbane.) A trip to the pharmacy or 7/11 means a nice chat with the person behind the counter. There is a sense of community here which I never found in any other city I&#8217;ve lived in.

Having said that, Brisbanites are intolerant of what they perceive to be lies. Most people here believe that &#8220;what you see is what you get&#8221;, and if someone is rude/stupid/ignorant, they will most likely be put in check. &#8220;I don&#8217;t tolerate fools&#8221; could be described as part of the larger Brisbanite personality.

Obviously, not everyone here fits this description, and not everyone is peachy-clean fresh and lovely (growls at GBC).

So &#8211; what do Brisbanites think are going to happen here? I&#8217;ve spoken to a lot of people, from family to friends to my doctor to the guy working at the bottle shop (liquor store) to receptionists at front counters. All in all, I&#8217;ve had discussions with about 40 people over the last two years, most of them in the last fortnight.

Not one person I&#8217;ve spoken to believes that GBC is innocent.

Of course, others I haven&#8217;t spoken to might very well believe in his innocence, but when you watch a news program on the case or an article in one of our magazines, the message is obvious: &#8220;We think he did it.&#8221; It doesn&#8217;t need to be said in the media, but the attention given to the case is overwhelming and there is an insinuation that he is guilty. This makes sense, given that The Crown believes he&#8217;s guilty.

There are concerns that jurors will believe he&#8217;s probably guilty, but will find not enough evidence to convict him. However, most people I&#8217;ve spoken to believe he will be found guilty. One older man said, &#8220;Eyewitness testimony is unreliable. People see different things depending on their memory&#8230;. One guy might say he saw a tall thin man in his 30s flee a crime scene, another person might describe the same guy as stout and in his 50s. Circumstantial evidence is more credible than eyewitness testimony.&#8221;

I believe jurors will be aware of the dangers of letting someone off based on &#8220;reasonable doubt&#8221;. The OJ Simpson case was huge over here, and Australians (like Americans) were disgusted that someone so evidently responsible for murder got away with it. I think there is a general fear that this may happen here and people don&#8217;t want this happening.

Queensland juries tend to be harsher in their judgments than American juries, if anecdotal evidence is any indication. The death of American Tina Watson in Queensland (2009) is an example (check out the Wikipedia entry if you don&#8217;t know of it). Tina&#8217;s husband Gabe Watson pleaded guilty to a lesser charge of manslaughter, and based on eyewitness testimony and circumstantial evidence that was not 100% solid, he was found guilty and sentenced to 4.5 years in jail in Queensland. The jurors believed, in spite of some inconsistencies in the case, that he was most likely guilty and charged him as such. (I also believed he was guilty; so did other Brisbanites I spoke to.) There was even a massive uproar here over the leniency of his sentence, with people fighting to keep him in jail longer and furiously insisting he should have been found guilty of murder, not manslaughter. Meanwhile, as GW sat in his cell, authorities in Alabama noted they wished to bring him home so as to try him for murder at a later date. He was then deported from Australia back to Alabama, which Australian authorities agreed to do so long as the death sentence would not be ultimate result if he was found guilty. The result was that the judge in Alabama did not think the evidence was sufficient for the case to even go to trial!

I think this is an indication of Queensland jury sentiment in general: there is much less leniency here than in America. So those who fear that GBC will walk &#8211; I believe the jury won&#8217;t allow it. Not only does Queensland have a track record on giving favour to the victim, people here are very protective of children and I think any juror will be thinking, &#8220;If he&#8217;s found not guilty, the kids will go to him.&#8221; I think this will be a bigger factor than concerns over GBC getting all of Allison&#8217;s money should he be found innocent, though of course this has also caused widespread disgust in itself.

 

[KG1]

If you mean that he could have confessed to police "I hit her and she died" or told them that she was trying to get away and fell and died, I don't think he would tell police that because it would be too shaming for him. And it would have still copped him jail time. Not quite sure I've understood what you meant though so please correct if I'm wrong.

I think most of the damning circumstances happened during and after he killed her and tried to dispose of her. So the scratches on his face, possible signs of a clean up (perhaps the vacuum), the blood in the car, the missing phone, the BC's behaviour. And then the suss behaviours like calling 000 so soon. I'm guess I just feel there isn't enough evidence from before she died that suggest premeditation over "sudden event/intent". Certainly I think there were prior circumstances that led the entire debacle to turn into a murderous/narcissistic rage.

Hi Brightbird, my post was in regard to his reasoning (other than a blatant lie), for denying that he killed Allison, on the stand. If either of what I posed happened, then in his mind's eye, he didn't kill her. If she was hit and fell and then hit her head and died, (although causation is there), he would think he could say 'I did not kill her' as it was the hitting of her head that killed her. Likewise a fall and hitting her head, when fleeing, in his mind would absolve him.
I am not for one moment saying he would have confessed to anything - not in his psyche. Deny, deny, deny is his mantra.
Hope you understand what I meant. I think I do, although maybe it is a little convoluted. Sorry.

 

[FigTree]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Susan12 View Post
I like your thinking. Allison might have confronted him about Toni being there the next day. He might have got worried that the two women might talk to each other at the conference and that Allison would find out he was seeing Toni again and/or that he'd said he would leave her. That might have prompted him to do this or he might have been going to do it re the money situation anyway but he upped the timeline because if Allison told others and left him the chance of him being the suspect after that would escalate.

Or Allison discovered he'd called Toni that afternoon and she was going to leave him.

or either he did tell Allison Toni was going to be at the Conference.
If she screamed at him - they would be away from others hearing.

or another thought...
GBC didn't tell Allison that TH was going to be at the Conference, and TH found out that he hadnt told Allison yet in that last phone call to him, so TH decided to tell Allison herself - because once more GBC had let her down after saying he would.

Source: Read More…

Mr Byrne said Baden-Clay did not tell his wife that Toni McHugh would be at the real estate conference the next day.

So did he tell her, or didn't he?
Either way he had cornered himself - and this was before the conference day.

 

[breno84]

I.M.O. only : The major flaw in GBC's "alibi" for the night of 19th, is his phone being put on the charger. I hope the prosecution goes really hard on this in cross examination.

He has now come up with the revelation that he gave his phone to Alison each evening and took it back each morning. I do not believe that for one minute. For heaven's sake - he was in REAL ESTATE ! Having worked in the industry myself, I can assure you it is not a 9 to 5 job. A lot of offers, negotiations etc. occur after hours. You need your phone 24/7. I do not think he would have agreed to that EVER !

So now he is expecting everyone to believe that he went to bed at 10 pm without his phone and PRESTO! he awakes the next morning at 6 to find HIS phone on the charger, but Alison and HER phone have vanished. Believable? I think not. I.M.O. only

Thanks everyone for the updates and thoughts, Has sure been a lot to digest.
This post stood out in particular to me because I had the strangest thing happen tonight (I say that because this case was on my mind after reading WS before heading off for work)

So we have a new guy at work, been there a short time and I haven't really had much to do with him since he works days, and myself nights.
Anyway, while our shifts overlap, we were working on the same job. About half an hour into my shift he approaches me and says.......

Him: 'Hey Breno84, were you working on this job last night?'
Me: (Expecting some smarty pants criticism) 'Yeah, last 2 nights, Why's that?'
Him: 'You're not missing an inspection lamp are you?'
Me: 'Actually yes I am....' (I was, and furious about it)
Him: 'Oh cool man! I found it under here (Points) I handed it in to the service office because I didn't know who owned it'
Me: 'Legend! I'll go grab it - thanks man!

So I walk into the service office and there is my lamp - ON THE CHARGER!!!
Spine tingling moment for me indeed.
(Just to clarify, we all use the same inspection lamps at work so they can be used on anyones charger)

The whole 'Allison put it there' defense is almost convincing in a way isn't it? It's the kind of seed of doubt thing that everyday people can relate to.
If she did indeed have his phone on/near her whilst allegedly watching the footy show, then fell asleep (Lets say close to 11ish) waking up at 1:48, she could have had a quick snoop at it, noticed the battery is getting down a bit, and thrown it on the charger before heading to bed.

What happens next is all GBC's story...
I really hate to play Devils advocate but I can see how a jury would possibly buy this. Bring on Monday, and the events of the 19th/20th under cross exam!

 

[Freya1977]

Hi Bekazzled, most of us in here are also from Brissy, many regulars are from the Brookfield area and surrounds

ETA: probably more accurate to say the majority of posters in Allison's forum are Aussie, while a great deal are also Brisbanites. We do have international Web sleuthers in here as well, of course.

 

[Brightbird]

Hi Brightbird, my post was in regard to his reasoning (other than a blatant lie), for denying that he killed Allison, on the stand. If either of what I posed happened, then in his mind's eye, he didn't kill her. If she was hit and fell and then hit her head and died, (although causation is there), he would think he could say 'I did not kill her' as it was the hitting of her head that killed her. Likewise a fall and hitting her head, when fleeing, in his mind would absolve him.
I am not for one moment saying he would have confessed to anything - not in his psyche. Deny, deny, deny is his mantra.
Hope you understand what I meant. I think I do, although maybe it is a little convoluted. Sorry.

Ah I see. Gotcha! I agree completely

 

[Makara]

Yes - though I would say after 2 hours most cars have returned to standing/non operating temperature, as well as the fluids - such as water and oils. Its variable - but it is obvious if checked.

A road driven and washed car returned and then left standing in a driveway cant un-tell that story in 30 minutes.

If the car engine was still warm and someone wanted to hide the fact that it had been used recently then the engine would have to be driven again to cover that.
Not just idling, or moved in the driveway, it would have to get to operating normal temperature and on the road.
That would cover the cleanliness (to some extent maybe) - and might cover up things like there was no dew on it (if it was a cold night), and cover why the motor was warm (if they were trying to hide that fact).

(Brain Interruption: thought... the car was taken to be cleaned elsewhere?).

<Respectfully snipped>

BBM: To the showground across the road from his house perhaps? It would have been dark. There would obviously be a hose there of some description. Any mud and debris from the car wouldn't be noticed as much and the paths and driveway of his house wouldn't look like they'd been recently hosed.

I still wonder why GBC phoned the showground maintenance man at 12:25pm on Friday 20 April. Immediately after this he made a series of calls, to a couple of solicitors and a couple to his father.

 

[Freya1977]

Thanks everyone for the updates and thoughts, Has sure been a lot to digest.
This post stood out in particular to me because I had the strangest thing happen tonight (I say that because this case was on my mind after reading WS before heading off for work)

So we have a new guy at work, been there a short time and I haven't really had much to do with him since he works days, and myself nights.
Anyway, while our shifts overlap, we were working on the same job. About half an hour into my shift he approaches me and says.......

Him: 'Hey Breno84, were you working on this job last night?'
Me: (Expecting some smarty pants criticism) 'Yeah, last 2 nights, Why's that?'
Him: 'You're not missing an inspection lamp are you?'
Me: 'Actually yes I am....' (I was, and furious about it)
Him: 'Oh cool man! I found it under here (Points) I handed it in to the service office because I didn't know who owned it'
Me: 'Legend! I'll go grab it - thanks man!

So I walk into the service office and there is my lamp - ON THE CHARGER!!!
Spine tingling moment for me indeed.
(Just to clarify, we all use the same inspection lamps at work so they can be used on anyones charger)

The whole 'Allison put it there' defense is almost convincing in a way isn't it? It's the kind of seed of doubt thing that everyday people can relate to.
If she did indeed have his phone on/near her whilst allegedly watching the footy show, then fell asleep (Lets say close to 11ish) waking up at 1:48, she could have had a quick snoop at it, noticed the battery is getting down a bit, and thrown it on the charger before heading to bed.

What happens next is all GBC's story...
I really hate to play Devils advocate but I can see how a jury would possibly buy this. Bring on Monday, and the events of the 19th/20th under cross exam!

I think the most likely scenario with the phone is that Allison would look at his phone, but not actually keep it. I don't think he'd relinquish control of his phone except for her to have a check and then give it back.

I don't believe she was putting his phone on charge at almost 2:00am when she had a big day the next day......or was already at Kholo Creek

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

 

[kiwijayne]

<Respectfully snipped>

BBM: To the showground across the road from his house perhaps? It would have been dark. There would obviously be a hose there of some description. Any mud and debris from the car wouldn't be noticed as much and the paths and driveway of his house wouldn't look like they'd been recently hosed.

I still wonder why GBC phoned the showground maintenance man at 12:25pm on Friday 20 April. Immediately after this he made a series of calls, to a couple of solicitors and a couple to his father.

Brookfield Showground is locked off at night and you can't get a vehicle in there. It is down the road from his house.

Another possibility would be a house for sale he knows is vacant and he could use a hose there. Without raising suspicion. He could have even gone to a friends house maybe in Brookfield?

I can ask the maintenance guy I see him regularly there.

 

[Makara]

Brookfield Showground is locked off at night and you can't get a vehicle in there. It is down the road from his house.

Another possibility would be a house for sale he knows is vacant and he could use a hose there. Without raising suspicion. He could have even gone to a friends house maybe in Brookfield?

I can ask the maintenance guy I see him regularly there.

Thanks Kiwijayne that would be great. I'm thinking the reason for the call to the maintenance man was to perhaps to return a key that GBC may have borrowed at an earlier stage, or even months prior.

 

[Makara]

I think GBC has shot himself in the foot with the phone charger BS. He may well have left his phone laying around so that Allison could pick it up at any time to look at it but for her to confiscate it from him each night and not return it until the following morning is utter crap!

Think about this. For the first time in a month's worth of phone records GBC phones TM at 2:43pm at her office on Thursday 19 April. Yep, the day before Allison was reported missing. He'd phoned Allison at 2:41pm, probably to see where she was. We now know that TM had also phoned GBC later that same day no less than three times. I believe that GBC and TM did meet that night while the girls were at Nigelaine's and Allison was at the hairdresser. One of the girls did say that Daddy picked them up from their grandparents' and took them home. Did Allison discover that GBC wasn't at Nigelaine's as he said he'd be, but had stepped out for a while to attend to business? Allison may have even gone to Nigelaine's after the hairdresser and found that GBC wasn't there. She went home, leaving the girls there to enjoy time with their cousins until Daddy came back to bring them home. She had a fair idea of where he was.

Allison phoned her home landline at 6:26pm on the Thursday night, 19 April. That call lasted 0.01sec. Obviously nobody was home and she got message bank instead. She phoned GBC's mobile at 6:27pm, a 0:21sec call. The next and final call from Allison's phone was at 8:28pm to OW. That call lasted for 1:01secs. Short and sweet! Was Allison asking OW what time GBC came to pick up the girls etc? Were they all lying to her, covering up GBC's nasty little infidelity? I believe so.

When GBC arrived home and the girls were in bed Allison confronted him. He knew what was coming because his family had already tipped him off that Allison had been looking for him. He was furious, she was furious and that fury erupted into murder.

 

[Onlyone]

I just had another thought what if he planned to do it that night at Mt Coot tha? Then chickened out.

The children where in bed(I guess) and the BC's where there babysitting. They could say he was there all night or nicked out to get a coffee(if he was seen) and cover for him. He could then say the next morning(since she walked in the morning)do the same as he did that Friday. Ring and report her missing.

He could then say she had been abducted on the walk and dumped at Mt Coot tha.

He didn't have enough time to get to Mt Cootha, talk and drive back. Unless, he used the Gap Creek road, which is a much less traveled route at night. Maybe you have something there!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

You will not believe this !
http://ewn.co.za/2014/06/27/Oscar-Pistorius-Panel-member-suffers-heart-attack

:banghead:

OMG, is that possible?!

 

[kiwijayne]

He didn't have enough time to get to Mt Cootha, talk and drive back. Unless, he used the Gap Creek road, which is a much less traveled route at night. Maybe you have something there!

Gap Creek Rd would take you longer it has those wierd speed trap areas etc. But we only have GBC and his families word they where gone 30 mins.

 

[Aliwonders]

If Allison was alive at nearly 2am (putting his phone on the charger) the chance of her being seen somewhere between her home and Kolo Creek surely increases. How busy is this road. People will be out on the road from 6am on getting to work. Between 11 and 4 I would imagine the traffic will be much lighter. (What is the traffic like at Kolo Creek at those hours. ) Anyone enlighten us about this?? If people are going to have a domestic incident it would more likely occur from 8pm - 11pm Before bedtime. How long would it take to walk to Kolo Creek from her home??

 

[DunnoZo]

Thanks Kiwijayne that would be great. I'm thinking the reason for the call to the maintenance man was to perhaps to return a key that GBC may have borrowed at an earlier stage, or even months prior.

The timing of this call really has me intrigued. The call took place right after his legal conversation.. The main gate may be locked, but how about the entrances around the corner closer to Brookfield Produce?

side note, drove by BF's house. It is perched high , almost directly overlooking the whole valley of the show ground. I believe a scream could have been heard from far away, but for BF to ask someone on the phone if they heard it, it would have had to be much closer by. I wish he was asked if it was a distant scream. Could have been some loving neighbours hitting the sack, imo