The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 1st July - Trial Day 13, Week 3

[redlightthroughpaper]

Yes I have tried to see it as the jury would too, and while I have my own opinion I'm not yet convinced that they have been shown enough.

The thing that makes me believe it wasn't suicide is where she was found, and with the car back at home no easy means to have gotten herself there.

Many of the other reasons people have suggested prove it isn't suicide are myths in my opinion.

I'm sorry about your mum.

I struggle with the bridge in both regards. I dont think it fits with suicide at all. But I dont think it fits with GBC committing murder at the house, while the kids were asleep, transporting her body to the bridge, getting her under it, on his own, leaving no trace of Kholo Creek or a physical altercation at the house to be found (and no sign of clean up either, as reported by police). Neither scenario makes sense to me.

 

[ford71]

I wonder what Keiren Perkins' views are on this? Guilty or an amazing set of unrealistic events all occuring one night?

After all, he is totally relevant to this trial.

What a goose. Destroy him prosecution.

 

[DrWatson]

Good points. I don't know.

Oddsocks - kudos to you for being open and able to hold a reasoned debate. As I've posted before, I deliberately put my mind into neutral/unbiased mode at the start of the trial, despite having pre-formed opinions from 2 years of following this case, and also from being very close to it in several ways.

But although I started this trial in unbiased impartial mode, the more I've heard from the BCs, from Olivia, and from the star of the show over two days, the more I find it difficult to give GBC the benefit of the doubt.

I do admire and welcome someone who can post a reality check - as in what the jury may be thinking assuming they haven't been following the case on WS for 2 years. That is always worth being reminded of.

This is all going to come down to how much credibility GBC has remaining after the prosecution have finished with him, how they deal with the defence's expert witnesses (neither of whom will have seen or treated Allison), and most of all, by the summing up addresses of both the defence and the prosecution - who get to go last.

Keep posting, Oddsocks - I'll keep arguing if I need to, but will agree with you where I can't argue

 

[Oddsocks]

Dr Watson what I can't understand then is if drowning is ruled out, where does it say that? I'm not trying to be argumentative but her autopsy report says "drowning has to be considered a possible cause of death given she was found near a creek"
"Injuries from a fall from height need to be considered"
"Death from drug toxicity cannot be excluded"
http://websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30810&d=1363404040

 

[Trooper]

bizzness calls.. yes , yes.. I have to see clients, spin stuff, whirl hither and yon, *pins on yellowjacket*, ....

again. a heartfelt thanks for the tweeting done by the ever snappy Dr Sleuth, Prime, Aimee, all of you who do it and do it so well.

I know when I return, there it all will be... Gerard attempting snippiness and getting knocked on his backside, over and over again..

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Can someone please post a list of important prosecution questions, that have not already been asked?
As our friend , Dr Watson just said, they might be reading here.
Our list , whilst in the break, could help the Prosecution ... to nail him.

Imo they should back him into a corner, so he comes out fighting.

I was a witness for the prosecution nearly 10 years ago, I couldn't be in the courtroom until my question time which took half the day. The questions and suggestions that were put to me by the defence were so outrageous, most people would be pretty shocked and alarmed, as I was. Luckily, I had the DPP on my side, and I can't say enough good things about them, particularly 2 people out for justice.

I've noticed in the Oscar Pistorius trial, they are very tame in comparison. I'm wondering how hard they will be on GBC? Please, please go rough on him.

If he's innocent, nothing but his pride is hurt and he can set people straight with the truth, if he's guilty, which I believe he is, he will continue to lie, lie, lie. jmho

 

[Janeumayer]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 27s

Gerard says Allison had put on weight and had low self esteem. He didn't want to pressure her. "It sounds pathetic," he says. #badenclay

Fuller asks Gerard if he remembers what happened on Allison's 40th birthday in 2008. #badenclay

Fuller: Did you write about it? You wrote a blog at times? Asks about November, 2008 entry. #badenclay

GOLD here comes the BLOG

:fireworks:​

 

[possumheart]

I struggle with the bridge in both regards. I dont think it fits with suicide at all. But I dont think it fits with GBC committing murder at the house, while the kids were asleep, transporting her body to the bridge, getting her under it, on his own, leaving no trace of Kholo Creek or a physical altercation at the house to be found (and no sign of clean up either, as reported by police). Neither scenario makes sense to me.

Well I am sure you have read about one punch deaths and how quickly life can change. So after saying shi*, shi*, shi* 100 times quietly I can imagine adrenaline would help with the rest. And we can clearly see that Gerard's logic is based around his immediate needs, and whatever makes him look like the 'good guy'. He left traces of Brookfield at Kholo Creek, just not the reverse.

 

[Amee]

Dr Watson what I can't understand then is if drowning is ruled out, where does it say that? I'm not trying to be argumentative but her autopsy report says "drowning has to be considered a possible cause of death given she was found near a creek"
"Injuries from a fall from height need to be considered"
"Death from drug toxicity cannot be excluded"
http://websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30810&d=1363404040

A scientist appearing at the murder trial of Gerard Baden-Clay has given expert evidence that Allison, whose body was found on a creek bank, did not drown.

"My straight conclusion is that ... the subject concerned did not drown in Kholo Creek or anywhere," he said.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-24/scientist-tells-court-allison-baden-clay-did-not-drown/5545898

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-..._ExpertsaysAllisonBadenClaydidnotdrown_240614

 

[Janeumayer]

Do you think they're going to complain that he wasn't under oath when he wrote that, therefore it needs to be discounted?

Maybe it wasn't submitted as evidence? :dunno:

 

[Amee]

ALLISON Baden-Clay did not drown in the creek where her body was found, nor did she overdose on anti-depressant medication, her husband’s murder trial has heard.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...pert-tells-court/story-e6frg6nf-1226964818763

 

[marlywings]

Dr Watson what I can't understand then is if drowning is ruled out, where does it say that? I'm not trying to be argumentative but her autopsy report says "drowning has to be considered a possible cause of death given she was found near a creek"
"Injuries from a fall from height need to be considered"
"Death from drug toxicity cannot be excluded"
http://websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30810&d=1363404040

Trial day 1...

Crown prosecutor Todd Fuller, QC, has launched his opening address to the jury before a packed court room.

Crown Prosecutor Todd Fuller, QC, said Mrs Baden-Clay's tracksuit top was pulled up over her head, "consistent with her having been dragged".

Those injuries were not consistent with a fall from the bridge."

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...ay-1-week-1-20140609-39srt.html#ixzz36BXU3JPr

 

[Susan12]

Some questions I'd wonder...

Allison wasn't depressed was she, you told the police <police interview tape that morning> that she was doing better?

If you didn't want to be in a relationship with Toni why did you initiate contact with her some time after a break had been made and was in effect? Weren't you free of her then and the time for the greatest upset had passed?

If you were worried about Toni's state of mind why did you give her a date to be with her by that was so near to when you said it? That wouldn't have held her at bay for long and would have affected her if you never intended to meet it?

Why were you committed to Allison and not wanting to be with Toni if you didn't love Allison, weren't having sex with her and you admitted needing the affairs for sex?

Why did you need an affair with the second woman if the affair with Toni was only for the business and sex so now you had that covered?

If you needed to continue the affair for the business why did you immediately tell Allison you'd end it when she found out, wouldn't that have been a problem for the business?

Since you told Toni you wanted out of the relationship but couldn't afford a divorce and to leave it to you, how did you intend to work things out?

How'd you know what Allison was wearing that morning if you didn't see her since she was last in pajamas?

Why did you not call Allison's parents or best friend when you thought she was missing? What were the calls to your family really about?

Why did you call the police so soon after she didn't respond to your messages if you weren't too worried she was missing and had no reason to believe anything untoward had happened?

Was the toy box normally in the car, why was it in the car? (can the daughters say whether this is true or not?)

 

[catswhiskers]

This is Gold for the Prosecution.
Gerard has shown the jury , for 2 days on the stand, that he has an amazing memory !
So, it is quite obvious, that when he can't remember something, he is Manipulating and Telling Lies.
Great stuff. :seeya:

It would be interesting to see how often GBC actually said he couldn't remember particular important deets over his first couple of days in the stand - certainly none spring to mind right now. But all those minute details he used to embellish his memories of past events - an amazing memory indeed.
We could suggest that the prosecution throws in a bit of trivia - like a word association exercise using the likes of Kieran Perkins, Lady Di or Toblerone when GBC's memory needs a jog. :waitasec:

 

[toe]

Question: What did Allison have for dinner on the 19th since she wasn't around at NBC's and did she have a cuppa and TimTams to watch the Footy Show?

There are always a few cups and crumbs in the sink in the morning.

Allison was given permission to have a coffee when she finished her hair appointment.

 

[Consider]

Okay sorry I must have missed that post so I went back and found it. Yes those causes of death are unlikely, but no one has put forward a likely cod. Drowning or falling wasn't ruled out, however unlikely.
Don't get me wrong, I see that everything put together is damning, but for what it's worth one has to lie when keeping up appearances.
For me there is the what if he isn't lying now, which creates reasonable doubt.
I understand that some of you guys have been here for 2 years and have made up your minds that he is definitely guilty. I just trying to see it from the perspective of the jury, which is hard in itself because we don't get to see reactions.
Possible plausible alternatives I have no idea really. I guess jealous mistress, suicide and misadventure. While I'm rambling I fully believe that someone can commit suicide while appearing happy and functioning. And to the people that say she wouldn't leave her girls, it happens, as my mum left me and my siblings.


That being said, I'm sorry for Allison and her family, and especially her children and I hope they find peace, whatever the outcome. :heartbeat::heartbeat:

Struggling to find the best words to offer you (publicly) with the loss of your mum. <modsnip>

Everyone on WS seems to come from a place of 'compassion' (and can be rather passionate about it !)

 

[Mumma Bear]

Caroline Overington &#8207;@overingtonc 42s

There is also one more message or call from Toni, but Gerard says 'I can't comment on that. I don't know anything about that' #badenclay

This would be another one to add to Fig Tree's awesome list of 'don't remembers' but no one else has tweeted it - I'm thinking it's a misunderstanding by Caroline Overington over the calls from Toni's ex to Toni.

Same tweeter who invented the terms sex-car and sex-house. Associate Editor of the Women's Weekly. Nuf said.

 

[DrWatson]

Dr Watson what I can't understand then is if drowning is ruled out, where does it say that? I'm not trying to be argumentative but her autopsy report says "drowning has to be considered a possible cause of death given she was found near a creek"
"Injuries from a fall from height need to be considered"
"Death from drug toxicity cannot be excluded"
http://websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30810&d=1363404040

Nathan Milne, who conducted the autopsy, was being his usual very thorough and cautious self. Of course drowning had to be considered - at the time of the autopsy. But subsequent tissue examination by Dr Jacob John confirmed that drowning was NOT the cause of death - he testified in the first few days of the trial. Remember that the autopsy was only the early stages of trying to determine the cause of death - all sorts of subsequent tests had to be done, from DNA to diatoms, from toxicology to odontology - the list goes on.

So Milne was merely showing in his report - and his testimony -that he was remaining open to all POSSIBLE causes of death at the time that he did the autopsy.

 

[Amee]

GERARD Baden-Clay admitted under cross-examination he deceived those closest to him for years, and promised his mistress he&#8217;d leave his wife for her, weeks before Allison Baden-Clay disappeared.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-on-their-future/story-e6frg6nf-1226973533265

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Ha! Cool as a cucumber! Same as yesterday! (Yep, I did notice) Appetite whetted.

At lunch time I will have goulash and noodles, hmm. As a German, I don't love sandwich, sorry!