The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 2nd July - Trial Day 14, Week 3

[marlywings]

Together with the baby monitor it was another form of control over Allison.

That is the thing with the types of people such as "himself"...

They can't control themselves, however they make sure they have total control of everyone around them. He was controlling Allison, TM & who knows how many other women.

Thinking back...I've no doubt the children were de-briefed as a means of controlling them.

He even tried to control the jury & have them believe his charade & lies.

I think that jury will find him guilty far beyond any reasonable doubt.

 

[Consider]

we only have Gerards claim that he himself is having sex from Darwin to Sydney... it's quite possible . in fact, its highly probable, that Gerard has a severe sexual dysfunction.. from his own testimony, even though he starts off by saying he 'only wanted sex'.. he doesn't seem to be exactly up for it, if I may use that term .. he says Toni instigated it.. he says ,he had to get a days advance preparation for his assignation in Sydney with Ms Chrane. He says Toni always wanted it.. not him.. He implied he was always bullied into it.... it just landed on his doorstep, .. somehow he accidentally fell over and there it was..

And if Gerard is claiming to be all over it, all the time, .. is that a lie?? quite possibly.. considering his inability to grasp truth at any time.

GBC was quite sensitive/snarky indeed offended at being asked detail (despite giving tmi on his terms)

He seemed uncomfortable at feeling perhaps he should or was being made to describe the type of sex he and TM were having.

Honestly I couldn't see that he was being asked this.

It seemed to be his defensive response without provocation.

His testimony reflects this and highlights how uncomfortable he was - but he was bringing it upon himself. Nobody asked him to be more specific about your 'sexual relations Mr Clinton'. No one asked what 'act' occurred in Snowy versus yours and Allison's home, the office after hours, the sale and rental properties, versus in the cinema, local BP toilet (?), outside Maccas, cafés, the fish 'n' chip shop, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Frankly GBC being coy about HOW he did it doesn't match telling all today (and his newest, future (?) pals back in the clink) that there were MORE (haha you useless prosecution dropping the ball...) and CONCURRENTLY (ain't i da man!!! - screamed the loudest most insecure male in the room...)

His imaginary crowd applause goes wild......

He landed every detail about Allison re-emerging sexually.

It just doesn't add up that he was suddenly coy.

So yeah - long winded - I agree - perhaps he had some manly issues not just all the others we're well aware of.

jmo

 

[marlywings]

Personally I think it will all come down to who ties things together better in their closing statements.

As you have all kept up with the trial I have noticed many many many comments of yes that happened, when will we get to this, that's not what they said before etc.

To the jury this is all new information delivered at times in boring ways. Eg 100 (yes an exaggeration).people to say the cuts were not made by a razor.

They are human, there will have been times when their minds wandered. And in this trial there was no "Gotcha" moment, no movie like revelations of fingerprints or blood stained clothes. No sit up and take notice now moment.

So I believe it will come down very much to who can tie it all together without being so long winded they lose the jury in the process.

The same could be said of Max Sica trial. There was nothing to show that he killed the three Singh siblings. There were some footprints but nothing which proved beyond any doubt they belonged to Sica.

Yet he was found guilty.

 

[steadan]

I think it's time to bring his cheap bottle of plonk out of the back of the cupboard.
Not quite ready to pop the cork just yet, unlike GBC! Who was happy to do it with anyone, anywhere

:toastred

 

[Snails]

Some more to ponder-
http://samvak.tripod.com/faq29.html

"He keeps explaining to anyone who cares to listen that his other sexual partners are nothing to him, meaningless, that he is merely taking advantage of them and that they do not constitute a threat and should not be taken seriously by his spouse. In his mind a clear separation exists between the honest "woman of his life" (really, a saint) and the *advertiser censored* that he is having sex with.
With the exception of the meaningful women in his life, he tends to view all females in a bad light. His behaviour, thus, achieves a dual purpose: securing Narcissistic Supply, on the one hand – and re-enacting old, unresolved conflicts and traumas (abandonment by Primary Objects and the Oedipal conflict, for instance)."

 

[JK673]

The same could be said of Max Sica trial. There was nothing to show that he killed the three Singh siblings. There were some footprints but nothing which proved beyond any doubt they belonged to Sica.

Yet he was found guilty.

Yes....far less evidence - circumstantial or otherwise

 

[steadan]

I think it's time to bring his cheap bottle of plonk out of the back of the cupboard.
Not quite ready to pop the cork just yet, unlike GBC! Who was happy to do it with anyone, anywhere

:toastred

Anyone help me post a pic??

 

[itsthevibe]

I may be going against the majority here on saying I did not have a problem with the defence psychologist.

I don't think he helped their case because as I have said before the location she was found with no car is the sticking point for me with the suicide theory.

However my interpretation was that he commented on what he gleaned from her doctors' notes with regard to her depression.

And his comments on suicide were all general statements none of which he specifically applied to Allison except when the prosecution asked him to.

All due respect to all medical people - but all the knowledge in the world cannot predict some things.

Yes, i agree with some of the points - but I did feel he was somewhat biased and displayed lack of knowledge by saying that the fact she had written in her diary that she lacked confidence and felt not good enough was some sort of indicator of depression. I feel he was overdoing it and also showed no understanding of the fact that millions of women throughout the world may feel lacking in confidence and 'not good enough' for short, long or intermittent periods of their lives and it has no definite connection to them being depressed.

To me, it seemed he was drawing a long bow - he was asked the question by Danny Boyle something along the lines of "So there was no record in the appointments with Relationships Australia of her being clinically depressed?" the question spoke specifically to the notes and records made by the psychologist in the appointments, but Schramm jumped in immediately and said "Yes, there were the comments in her diary".

I felt he was abit too keen to 'not rule in or out' certain things and remembering that the defence are trying to cast 'reasonable doubt' over things i did think the testimony was a concern.

In saying that I agree that the distance to Kholo and no evidence of her taking her vehicle to get there, does come into it though.

 

[marlywings]

Mr Baden-Clay Snr told the court of the moment he learnt Allison's body had been located.

"The police came to Gerard's office, I happened to be in Gerard's office at the time, and the police came to Gerard's office to tell him," he said.

"But we had actually heard before that because it was actually on the internet before the police got to his office.

"We were aware a body had been found under the Kohlo Creek Bridge."

http://m.noosanews.com.au/news/murder-trial-gerard-baden-clay-second-week/2290111/

I remember NBC stating he'd read online a body had been found. I also remember locals on WS saying police were out at Kholo & we all wondered why. I might go back & check all that some time but I'm fairly sure it was locals who first stated a body had been found.

So he possibly read it on WS.

 

[volunteer]

What I don't understand is why no suggestion of travel from Brookfield to Kholo Creek has been mentioned in the trial. ? There was a lot of police work going on at the Kenmore roundabout, etc, but nothing about that was mentioned in the trial. I agree that the back way - through Rafting Ground Road - would be the obvious route, and quicker. Also no mention of the B-C affiliation with scout property at Kholo Creek. ??? Can anyone say why not?

From memory, I think the scout camp was mentioned by Mr. Fuller, but GBC replied that he was not familiar with it. Perhaps someone else can correct me.

You would think Baden Powell's g. grandson would know every scout camp in Qld.!

 

[steadan]

I think it's time to bring his cheap bottle of plonk out of the back of the cupboard.
Not quite ready to pop the cork just yet, unlike GBC! Who was happy to do it with anyone, anywhere

:toastred:

:toastred: :toastred:

 

[MadDoc]

Mr Baden-Clay Snr told the court of the moment he learnt Allison's body had been located.

"The police came to Gerard's office, I happened to be in Gerard's office at the time, and the police came to Gerard's office to tell him," he said.

"But we had actually heard before that because it was actually on the internet before the police got to his office.

"We were aware a body had been found under the Kohlo Creek Bridge."

http://m.noosanews.com.au/news/murder-trial-gerard-baden-clay-second-week/2290111/

Notice the insituations and digs against the police.

The police failed to notify him before the information made its way onto the internet.

The police gave information about his affair to the media.

The police interrogated him.

It's Good Guy Gerard versus the Big Bad Police.

 

[Consider]

What I don't understand is why no suggestion of travel from Brookfield to Kholo Creek has been mentioned in the trial. ? There was a lot of police work going on at the Kenmore roundabout, etc, but nothing about that was mentioned in the trial. I agree that the back way - through Rafting Ground Road - would be the obvious route, and quicker. Also no mention of the B-C affiliation with scout property at Kholo Creek. ??? Can anyone say why not?

GBC testified he wasn't familiar with the scout property....
Despite his name, likely references from the public about his association and it's nearby proximity and despite being the worlds greatest local real estate agent.

Go figure!!!!!

 

[JCB]

Now that the prosecution and defence arguments have concluded, I'm going to put forward a theory that at first most will dismiss but bear with me.

Hypothermia.

Obviously not a common cause of death in QLD, much less in April but nevertheless I feel it is worthy of investigation.

From my admittedly limited research, hypothermia starts to become an issue around 60 degrees Fahrenheit (15.5 degrees Celsius). On the evening of the 19th of April/morning of the 20th the minimum temperature observed at Brisbane airport was 17 degrees however as most Brisbanites know, temperatures are routinely much, much colder in the western suburbs and Ipswich.

Finding detailed climate information for a date more than 2 years ago is difficult outside of the major weather stations but with a little bit of trawling through the bowels of the internet it appears that the minimums in the general vicinity of where Allison's body was found were anywhere between 13-16 degrees that night, with most around the 15 degree mark (there are lots of colder pockets/frost hollows in the area so it's difficult to determine exactly).

15 degrees is going to be chilly but not harmful to a healthy, non elderly person who is suitably dressed, however this is measured at some distance above the ground and Allison was found on the ground.

The terrestrial temperature (the temperature immediately above the ground) is usually measurably cooler than the recorded air temperature. Depending on other variables, primarily wind, the difference can be significant. This is why we see frosts when the air temperature is well above freezing. On a windless night, the terrestrial temperature is routinely 5-8 degrees cooler from my observations. Where it is windy, the difference is usually much smaller, maybe 1-3 degrees.

Allison was found lying/slumped on the ground. Assuming 15 degrees (and it may well have been a couple of degrees cooler at that exact location) with a terrestrial temp of 6 degrees lower (as there was virtually no wind recorded at Amberley during the relevant period), she has now been exposed to single digit temperatures for at least part of the evening/early morning. This slips under the 50 degree Fahrenheit mark which seems to be significant when assessing the risk of hypothermia but again a healthy adult should survive the night, albeit uncomfortably.

However what if Alison's clothing had become wet for some reason? Wet clothing MASSIVELY increases the risk of hypothermia, something that I've personally experienced when climbing in colder climates. Dry clothing, no worry in the world but as soon as your clothing becomes the slightest bit damp, things can get serious very quickly. There were localised showers in the area at the time, she could have been dripping in sweat after running vigorously, there may well have been a dew, she could have collected the moisture as she was brushing through foliage or indeed she could have become soaked if she had jumped or fallen in the water for whatever reason.

9-10 degree temperatures with wet clothing is not a good recipe. I haven't come across any detailed research on this exact scenario, most deal with total immersion of the body in water but a person will generally die within a couple of hours of being in 9 degree water. Although obviously wet clothing isn't quite as serious as total immersion, you can start to understand the seriousness.

On top of this it appears that antidepressants/sedatives and the like can adversely affect the ability of a person to ward off hypothermia.

One of the paradoxical reactions to hypothermia is the compulsion to undress oneself. Often perished mountaineers are found in various stages of undress, could it possibly be that Allison was attempting to remove her jumper for this very reason? Could she have sought the refuge of the bridge in a confused attempt to seek shelter?

A number of suppositions have to be made for this to be a plausible scenario (Allison would have had to have been at ground level for an extended period, either injured or exhausted) but it's something that I would have explored further. And perhaps it was and was debunked early on in the piece, nevertheless it's possible in my opinion, albeit not likely.

 

[royster]

Anyone else feel highly emotional after these last few weeks?
I feel all sorts of wrong and uptight. I can only imagine the feelings of the Dickies.
Bring on a guilty verdict.

 

[JK673]

GBC testified he wasn't familiar with the scout property....
Despite his name, likely references from the public about his association and it's nearby proximity and despite being the worlds greatest local real estate agent.

Go figure!!!!!

The whole family has spent so much time telling people he is the great grandson of Scout founder and yet he has no idea there was a scout camp??? And no idea what Crime Scene meant? In this day and age that is soooooo obvious he is lying or he is dumber than I thought.....which I thought could not be possible.....

 

[Consider]

I wonder why he felt the need to point out the change in routine himself? It's not the only time he has offered extra info without prompting - makes him look even dodgier.

IMHO GBC offers extra info as a nervous/boastful pre-emptive strike.

The areas GBC is most concerned will bring him unstuck and that he truly does know more about - but is expecting to be found out about - are the ones he throws in extra info about - to attempt to throw every one off.

jmo

 

[Really?]

Just woke up ..... Arg ..... What is roux going on about. I have enca up

Oops. Wrong bread sorry

 

[possumheart]

:toastred: :toastred:

I haven't laughed so hard in years, thank you steaden, you are a gem.

 

[laserdisc10]

I wonder why he felt the need to point out the change in routine himself? It's not the only time he has offered extra info without prompting - makes him look even dodgier.

First thing which occurs to me is that he needed to establish before the girls that the big, weeping gouges on his face had been caused by shaving

One of the girls said he came into her room with foam on his face, saying in effect she could remember that happening only once before

His little captive witnesses - his daughters. He was setting the scene for when the police arrived. He knew he'd have to come up with something to explain his face. So when the girls began stumbling sleepily through the house, he was there, explaining he'd cut himself while shaving

And the daughters did duly report to police that he'd cut himself shaving because of the old razor

He must have cursed Allison solidly for those gouges, pacing up and down and wondering how the hell he could cover them up. He could have claimed that while out searching for Allison, he saw a flash of colour near a bush and while bending down to see what it was, a couple of jagged branches got him. But he's a dill and came up with the shaving lie. Which led to where he is now