The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 2nd July - Trial Day 14, Week 3

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Mr Fuller: She protected you, protecting your image?

Mr Baden-Clay: She was protecting us.

Mr Fuller: Because your image was quite important to your business?

Mr Baden-Clay: Yes.

http://m.noosanews.com.au/news/baden-clay-had-wife-and-mistress-same-conference/2305340/

The whole exchange makes me sick, even more than his bloomin' sex life. :puke: It shows contempt. He's clever, oh so clever. :banghead:

Somehow, I think GBC is enjoying all this. If he gets away with it, his almighty ego will know no bounds. jmo :(
 
I hope this jury interference by channel 9 doesn't mean a mistrial.

Very unlikely to result in a mistrial but could potentially be grounds for appeal should there be a conviction. Having said that, something else that happened yesterday may be far more injurious to the Crown case in the event of conviction and appeal (in my opinion) but obviously won't elaborate further at this stage.

Are the Jury sequestered? They don't go home each day?

No, QLD jurors get to go home.
 
Methinks Michael Byrne QC, as good as he may be, simply did NOT understand the significance of the sertraline levels, liver concentrations, and post-mortem redistribution.

But we did... ;) And so did the prosecution.


I have to say that Todd Fuller was STUNNING today! He blew any doubt of this defence witness muddying the prosecution theories of what happened to Allison totally out of the water!! I think he had more idea about the science at this point than the actual toxicologist. It was truly and completely impressive. The way he argued his points was like someone who was a learned scientist in the area and who had been studying this area for many years. I was totally shocked by his confidence and depth of knowledge. He won my vote overwhelmingly today! This was a defence witness and Byrne was not coping with the jargon or the gravity of the information. Even the judge was more clued in than the defence barristers! A bit of a wakeup call for GBC I think!
 
Me too - I'm intrigued and so wishing you could share! :)

I gather WS are being a bit naughty and tongue in cheek and playing on a rumour (fact?) about sexual shenanigans in Brookfield : rumours aren't allowed : having a laugh is.

jmo

That's my take. Can I reference the 70s movie "Dads' Party" for research?

Let's see
 
Is it possible that the prosecution can offer a plea deal now before the jury decides. Perhaps offer a reduced sentence?

Remember there have been legal arguments which haven't been published, (not about pleas as such but all sorts of things about how things are going to proceed, the possibilities, the jury, the process etc) I have been in the court for the legal arguments today, and last Wednesday which went for a couple of hours. Can't say much more than that.

I'm not sure how it works, but is there a Verified Expert - Alioop? lurking somewhere?

I don't know if it has to involve changing a plea, or whether the jury can find him not guilty of murder, but guilty of unlawful killing, or manslaughter? I'm sure there is a process, don't know if it is the same in every state, it definitely is different in different countries. I also don't know the difference between 'unlawful killing' as opposed to 'manslaughter'. Is there a difference between the two, and what is the difference compared to murder?

Even though the charges are for Murder, does that give the jury the right to say they believe he is guilty of manslaughter or unlawful killing instead? Surely there has to be some provision for that.

However, there is one thing I do know, the sentence for something like this wouldnt be that much lesser for unlawful killing than it would be for murder, especially because of the interfering with a corpse.

Alioop? are you there?

Personally, I believe there will be further legal argument about these things and a lot more, before Monday, and I believe that somehow, after due legal process, he will be found guilty of (at least) unlawful killing and interfering with a corpse.

Perhaps someone can do some research but I would also suggest that attendance at Fridays legal arguments could reveal more. I don't know if it will, but I just feel that if there is any possibility then this is the only chance to work out this aspect of things, and part of the way things have gone during these legal arguments is a surprising degree of openness and transparency about what is going to happen, and gaining agreement between Judge, Prosecutor and Defence.
 
Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 26m

Gerard says yes, there were "a number" of people he went to for sex "and we've talked about some of them". #badenclay

Wait, what? Some being Toni, Jacqui, and Michelle, so who else was there? If those 3 were all there were, wouldn't he have said "we've talked about all of them"..????


Yup a slight admission that didn't get missed by the prosecution! GBC had admitted to being deceitful so now he can bring more deceit to the table in the form of more infidelities.... how does that matter?
 
I have to say that Todd Fuller was STUNNING today! He blew any doubt of this defence witness muddying the prosecution theories of what happened to Allison totally out of the water!! I think he had more idea about the science at this point than the actual toxicologist. It was truly and completely impressive. The way he argued his points was like someone who was a learned scientist in the area and who had been studying this area for many years. I was totally shocked by his confidence and depth of knowledge. He won my vote overwhelmingly today! This was a defence witness and Byrne was not coping with the jargon or the gravity of the information. Even the judge was more clued in than the defence barristers! A bit of a wakeup call for GBC I think!

I so want to hear about the voices, and the posture, laidan.. * :please::please::please::please::please::please::please:
 
Have just been looking at GBC phone records... if my husband was missing, I would be trying to call his mobile everyday for days/weeks! Not just a few times on the day he went missing.

That's exactly right, in all this time not once did he plead for the police to find the real killer, no impassioned cries from behind bars declaring his innocence and that the real killer is still out there, just waltzing around with his wingmen NBC and OW taking care of business.

So there are no alternate theories for murder being presented it's either as the prosecution state that GBC bumped her or as the defence and NBC, EBC and OW would claim she was depressed and while going for her morning walk decided to wander off to end it all with a nice new hairstyle.
 
now that the prosecution and defence arguments have concluded, i'm going to put forward a theory that at first most will dismiss but bear with me.

Hypothermia.

Obviously not a common cause of death in qld, much less in april but nevertheless i feel it is worthy of investigation.

From my admittedly limited research, hypothermia starts to become an issue around 60 degrees fahrenheit (15.5 degrees celsius). On the evening of the 19th of april/morning of the 20th the minimum temperature observed at brisbane airport was 17 degrees however as most brisbanites know, temperatures are routinely much, much colder in the western suburbs and ipswich.

Finding detailed climate information for a date more than 2 years ago is difficult outside of the major weather stations but with a little bit of trawling through the bowels of the internet it appears that the minimums in the general vicinity of where allison's body was found were anywhere between 13-16 degrees that night, with most around the 15 degree mark (there are lots of colder pockets/frost hollows in the area so it's difficult to determine exactly).

15 degrees is going to be chilly but not harmful to a healthy, non elderly person who is suitably dressed, however this is measured at some distance above the ground and allison was found on the ground.

The terrestrial temperature (the temperature immediately above the ground) is usually measurably cooler than the recorded air temperature. Depending on other variables, primarily wind, the difference can be significant. This is why we see frosts when the air temperature is well above freezing. On a windless night, the terrestrial temperature is routinely 5-8 degrees cooler from my observations. Where it is windy, the difference is usually much smaller, maybe 1-3 degrees.

Allison was found lying/slumped on the ground. Assuming 15 degrees (and it may well have been a couple of degrees cooler at that exact location) with a terrestrial temp of 6 degrees lower (as there was virtually no wind recorded at amberley during the relevant period), she has now been exposed to single digit temperatures for at least part of the evening/early morning. This slips under the 50 degree fahrenheit mark which seems to be significant when assessing the risk of hypothermia but again a healthy adult should survive the night, albeit uncomfortably.

However what if alison's clothing had become wet for some reason? Wet clothing massively increases the risk of hypothermia, something that i've personally experienced when climbing in colder climates. Dry clothing, no worry in the world but as soon as your clothing becomes the slightest bit damp, things can get serious very quickly. There were localised showers in the area at the time, she could have been dripping in sweat after running vigorously, there may well have been a dew, she could have collected the moisture as she was brushing through foliage or indeed she could have become soaked if she had jumped or fallen in the water for whatever reason.

9-10 degree temperatures with wet clothing is not a good recipe. I haven't come across any detailed research on this exact scenario, most deal with total immersion of the body in water but a person will generally die within a couple of hours of being in 9 degree water. Although obviously wet clothing isn't quite as serious as total immersion, you can start to understand the seriousness.

On top of this it appears that antidepressants/sedatives and the like can adversely affect the ability of a person to ward off hypothermia.

One of the paradoxical reactions to hypothermia is the compulsion to undress oneself. Often perished mountaineers are found in various stages of undress, could it possibly be that allison was attempting to remove her jumper for this very reason? Could she have sought the refuge of the bridge in a confused attempt to seek shelter?

A number of suppositions have to be made for this to be a plausible scenario (allison would have had to have been at ground level for an extended period, either injured or exhausted) but it's something that i would have explored further. And perhaps it was and was debunked early on in the piece, nevertheless it's possible in my opinion, albeit not likely.

bbm you got that right
 
So are we never going to know what was in Toni's fifth statement.
I think it is still a possibility that she told Allison herself by text or phone call that she and Gerard were still having an affair.
Why was she so upset at the thought of Allison going to the conference, we know it wasn't concern for Allison sake.

Have the Defence actually said "GBC did not kill Allison" or did they only say "GBC will tell you he did not kill Allison"
Both the Defence and GBC seem to stress more that GBC did not leave his daughter"s alone that night, he did not drive to Kholo Bridge, than the fact that he did not kill Allison, they seem to be trying to hoodwink the jury into thinking if he didn't do these things, he couldn't possibly have killed her, which makes me wonder if someone else did dispose of Allison's body.
I believe the Defence know exactly what happened that night.

kiwi50 I've often wondered why TM a woman who sleeps with another man's husband and has some hide therefore and is hardly a wall-flower/shrinking violet type could be intimidated by Allison who no doubt TM and GBC routinely scoffed and derided and laughed about during their trysts.

It doesn't make sense to me her level of anxiety/anger.

How did being at conference with Allison there threaten her?
Attendees would band with Allison?
TM would be pointed, booed, hissed and spat upon : hardly.

jmo
 
What may be the defining issue between the 2 cases, in the Sica case there was unquestionably a murder committed (3 in fact) and he was witnessed in the immediate area around the time of the murders. In this instance murder is far harder to establish and not a single witness has placed GBC anywhere near the location where Allison's body was found.

In this case GBC is placed right there at the crime scene & he was the last person to see Allison alive.
 
Some thoughts from court this morning ...

Quotes of the day:
Todd Fuller: "You killed your wife, Mr Baden-Clay." There it was. Put to GBC at last.
Todd Fuller: “If TMcH confronted Allison at the conference the façade that was GBC would fall.”
GBC: “Some of the things I said and did were pretty naïve and pretty stupid.”

Some general observations:
It was a very different GBC under cross-examination. He slipped-up, or came close to slipping-up, on a number of occasions. The questioning was intense.

Todd Fuller is brilliant. His strategy of mixing it up has kept GBC well and truly on his toes. Danny Boyle presents in a different way. His questioning of Dr Schramm was very effective – he highlighted the general nature of his “assessment” , that it was not based on firsthand knowledge of Allison and her situation, and went on to present a list of factors specific to Allison, all of which (I believe) Dr Schramm agreed would likely reduce the risk of suicide.

I believe the prosecution team is doing an awesome job. They know their stuff.

I don’t believe for a moment the defence team wanted GBC to take the stand. They are doing what they can to defend their client. I sensed an air of resignation today as they were finishing up but that may have been my imagination.

All IMHOO. :twocents:
 
Very unlikely to result in a mistrial but could potentially be grounds for appeal should there be a conviction. Having said that, something else that happened yesterday may be far more injurious to the Crown case in the event of conviction and appeal (in my opinion) but obviously won't elaborate further at this stage.



No, QLD jurors get to go home.

Thanks JCB. That is intereresting. We'll wait and see what happens.
 
But wait, there's more.....:noooo:



Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 15s
Gerard says he spoke to Allison about Toni, but not about "any of the other women I had a relationship with". #badenclay

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 40s
Gerard says yes, there were "a number" of people he went to for sex "and we've talked about some of them". #badenclay


Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 1m
Gerard says he and Allison went through a period of nine years with hardly any intimacy. #badenclay
 
I have to say that Todd Fuller was STUNNING today! He blew any doubt of this defence witness muddying the prosecution theories of what happened to Allison totally out of the water!! I think he had more idea about the science at this point than the actual toxicologist. It was truly and completely impressive. The way he argued his points was like someone who was a learned scientist in the area and who had been studying this area for many years. I was totally shocked by his confidence and depth of knowledge. He won my vote overwhelmingly today! This was a defence witness and Byrne was not coping with the jargon or the gravity of the information. Even the judge was more clued in than the defence barristers! A bit of a wakeup call for GBC I think!

Totally agree.
 
Very unlikely to result in a mistrial but could potentially be grounds for appeal should there be a conviction. Having said that, something else that happened yesterday may be far more injurious to the Crown case in the event of conviction and appeal (in my opinion) but obviously won't elaborate further at this stage.



No, QLD jurors get to go home.
During the trial or outsid like the reporter?
 
In this case GBC is placed right there at the crime scene & he was the last person to see Allison alive.

But is there a crime scene? And if so where is it? These are questions that will be put to the jury during closing arguments. I want to see justice for Allison and her family as much as anyone (justice in whatever way that may be) but unfortunately I cannot be as confident as you.
 
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