The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 10th July - Trial Day 18

[frustrated detective]

I am still convinced that Gerard had scouted around the local area - prior to the 19th of April 2012 - to find the best spot to dispose of a body.

It seems unlikely that he would have discovered such a suitable spot in the middle of the night, and straight after murdering his wife.

How did he know that the bridge: had a place for a car to pull in, had a ledge which a body could be rolled off, and where a body would land in a place where it would not be washed away into the river, not be found too quickly, and not be easily seen from the road above?

To my mind, this all indicates PRE-MEDITATION.

If Gerard disposed of Allison's body at the bridge as Todd Fuller described, then he must have already known these details about the bridge, I believe.

 

[Fly]

Don't you want to add something to that post ....like.... Someone told me or...... On the Internet....... Or in a book I once read????

:laughing:

 

[possumheart]

obviously, Gerard hasn't considered it . ..he can, any accused can , change his mind , could have changed his plea .. at his bail hearing , at his committal hearing and even up to his Trial date.. He didn't. That's why it's where it is this very hour. Jury out deliberating on whether Gerard Baden-Clay is guilty as charged by the State of Qld in the matter of the murder of his wife, Allison Baden-Clay... way past the hypothetical stage.

The problem is Gerard has been unable to separate his real self from Gerard 'the brand' who is Mr Mom yada yada and would not do this. That's why my tummy did somersaults when his blog was put on the table and he said 'honestly'. He is gambling that the jury are dumb enough to sentence Gerard 'the brand' and not Bruce Overland. Gerard 'the brand' is a living lie.

 

[Trooper]

I've been wondering about this too - how can a jury find him guilty of manslaughter when he has so vehemently denied playing any role in Allison's death. He has gone to great lengths to explain away her disappearance and death and the evidence against him, so why would a jury even consider it manslaughter? Maybe others have some cases they can recall when this has happened without the defendant actually admitting to playing some part in someone's death?[/QUOTE]

I can tell you definitively, there hasn't been one in Australian Jurisprudence history where the defendant was not only asleep, but sleeping heavily, after ironing a shirt and singing a lullaby to his children when the death occurred. Nor has there been one case where the deceased was last seen watching the footy show by the defendant, and then found by a lone kayaker 14 klms away half buried in mud under a bridge 11 days later.

 

[Consider]

I'm thinking under this scenario GBC thinks and acts as per Allison 'needs restraining' because she's reacting/responding/emoting in however a small way - he is and was raised to be restrained... She has always been non confrontational. He restrains her and does so physically and now they suddenly are both/each in new territory. Instinct to breathe? free herself? Kicks in... Meanwhile GBC is focused on this now being 'out of his control'. It's all new/bad and both of them fight to stop it and each other. (without talking)

jmo

 

[marlywings]

With the info that the interfering with a corpse charge has been dropped, for some reason this report from the night of the first aborted bail hearing, came to mind. Why were five detectives at that house & searching the BC's car......

June 22, 2012

DETECTIVES investigating the alleged murder of Allison Baden-Clay returned last night to her in-laws' home where they conducted further searches of their property.

The Courier-Mail can reveal the car owned by Gerard Baden-Clay's parents was searched. Police rifled through the boot and back seat of the couple's silver Holden Statesman about 6pm.

SWEEP: Gerard Baden-Clay's father Nigel watches as police search his vehicle at his Kenmore home last night

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...lays-parents-car/story-e6freoof-1226404830587

 

[digitup]

obviously, Gerard hasn't considered it . ..he can, any accused can , change his mind , could have changed his plea .. at his bail hearing , at his committal hearing and even up to his Trial date.. He didn't. That's why it's where it is this very hour. Jury out deliberating on whether Gerard Baden-Clay is guilty as charged by the State of Qld in the matter of the murder of his wife, Allison Baden-Clay... way past the hypothetical stage.

As if (!) any Baden by name or by nature would admit to such dastardly acts! The very thought of this insult upon the well known family name is beyond reproach.

 

[MRSA]

Re unlawful restraint: just because it might be unlawful doesn't vitiate the person's lack of intent to kill or do GBH.

All the evidence points to Allison having scratched GBC's face while he did violence do her (with the intent to kill her). However you asked: "What scenario could fit an unintentional accident with scratches to his face?" One scenario might be that she scratched his face during a fight, he grabbed her in a big bearhug to restrain her, and she was inadvertently smothered. Or her jumper went up over her face and she was inadvertently smothered. You assume she scratched him while he was smothering her, but I am saying there are scenarios where this is not necessarily the case.

The definition of GBH is paraphrased from the Criminal Code. Here is a direct quote (s 1):

(a) the loss of a distinct part or an organ of the body; or
(b) serious disfigurement; or
(c) any bodily injury of such a nature that, if left untreated, would endanger or be likely to endanger life, or cause or be likely to cause permanent injury to health;

whether or not treatment is or could have been available.

You said scratching and slapping. Gerard is the one with the scratches and Allison is the one being restrained in this scenario, so I don't think you meant that it was Gerard doing the attacking.

No, but Gerard could have assaulted Allison and she could have responded with the scratches to the face. I don't think I was suggesting that Allison "attacked" Gerard.

way past the hypothetical stage.

?

Freya1977 asked for a hypothetical.

 

[they'll get you]

The oldest child was 10 so maybe was used to looking after her sisters for a short time while alone. Yes, 10 is too young but it happens a lot.
If GBC was sleeping at TMCH's 4 nights a week who looked after the children when Allison walked, if she walked. I'm betting he left those kids alone.
Because my friend worked her young children used to come home from school alone but they were fine knowing their mum was never far away and her children wouldn't have panicked if they woke alone.
I saw little kiddies 5 & 7 in school uniform walking along a 6 lane highway. I thought of the risks but some mums don't have an option.

 

[Trooper]

The problem is Gerard has been unable to separate his real self from Gerard 'the brand' who is Mr Mom yada yada and would not do this. That's why my tummy did somersaults when his blog was put on the table and he said 'honestly'. He is gambling that the jury are dumb enough to sentence Gerard 'the brand' and not Bruce Overland. Gerard 'the brand' is a living lie.

it must have scarred Gerard to have to listen to Mr Fuller QC outline his mistakes over and over again. And all done with Mr Fuller QC arrayed in the incredibly elegant ensemble, the regalia of a QC... must have made the memory of that shabby yellow jacket he was so thrilled with seem like rags and shreds....

 

[catswhiskers]

With the info that the interfering with a corpse charge has been dropped, for some reason this report from the night of the first aborted bail hearing, came to mind. Why were five detectives at that house & searching the BC's car......

June 22, 2012

DETECTIVES investigating the alleged murder of Allison Baden-Clay returned last night to her in-laws' home where they conducted further searches of their property.

The Courier-Mail can reveal the car owned by Gerard Baden-Clay's parents was searched. Police rifled through the boot and back seat of the couple's silver Holden Statesman about 6pm.

SWEEP: Gerard Baden-Clay's father Nigel watches as police search his vehicle at his Kenmore home last night

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...lays-parents-car/story-e6freoof-1226404830587

Not to mention a couple of other areas of investigation regarding someone else that seemed to be quashed at least in the public eye ... makes you wonder if those aspects of the investigation will resurface later?

 

[Tangled_Web]

The problem is Gerard has been unable to separate his real self from Gerard 'the brand' who is Mr Mom yada yada and would not do this. That's why my tummy did somersaults when his blog was put on the table and he said 'honestly'. He is gambling that the jury are dumb enough to sentence Gerard 'the brand' and not Bruce Overland. Gerard 'the brand' is a living lie.

Or the "Baden Clay product" as TF put it

 

[Crime and punishment]

Let's hope the deliberation doesn't drag on too long ...

 

[Zorro]

A friend who knows my pre-occupation with this case suggested I read Twelve Angry Men when I said the Jury was out.

Just spent 90 minutes and a couple of glasses with my spouse watching it instead. It's the classic jury deliberation story.

Well worth the time. No spoilers on the verdict.

http://youtu.be/RelOJfFIyp8
[video=youtu;RelOJfFIyp8]http://youtu.be/RelOJfFIyp8"]http://youtu.be/RelOJfFIyp8[/video]

 

[Freya1977]

Re unlawful restraint: just because it might be unlawful doesn't vitiate the person's lack of intent to kill or do GBH.

All the evidence points to Allison having scratched GBC's face while he did violence do her (with the intent to kill her). However you asked: "What scenario could fit an unintentional accident with scratches to his face?" One scenario might be that she scratched his face during a fight, he grabbed her in a big bearhug to restrain her, and she was inadvertently smothered. Or her jumper went up over her face and she was inadvertently smothered. You assume she scratched him while he was smothering her, but I am saying there are scenarios where this is not necessarily the case.

The definition of GBH is paraphrased from the Criminal Code. Here is a direct quote (s 1):

(a) the loss of a distinct part or an organ of the body; or
(b) serious disfigurement; or
(c) any bodily injury of such a nature that, if left untreated, would endanger or be likely to endanger life, or cause or be likely to cause permanent injury to health;

whether or not treatment is or could have been available.

No, but Gerard could have assaulted Allison and she could have responded with the scratches to the face. I don't think I was suggesting that Allison "attacked" Gerard.

:

I do see what you mean, I just find the whole accidentally smothering thing implausible. It takes a while to die that way, I don't see how it could have happened without him realising.

Thanks for that clear definition of GBH. Cheers

 

[they'll get you]

I have a feeling Allison didn't have PJ pants on but had a shower early and then got into clothes and slept in a T-shirt & knickers. I recall that what a child said. She hadn't painted her nails so maybe she didn't have a chance to get to bed.
Wherever he assaulted her, Allison could have had a chance to survive IF he'd called an ambulance and tried to revive her. But no, Allison died and he hid her body.

'Nicest bloke you could ever meet'. It was this nice bloke that grabbed and held Flegg by the shirt in a public place and abused him.
I'm sure gaols are full of nice blokes.

 

[Thinking]

I've always thought that.

Kids can wake randomly and if one of them woke (upset from bad dream, needing comfort?) and saw that someone other than GBC was looking after them, the girls would have possibly/most likely mentioned it to police.

The only thing that I can't get to work with that theory is how that second person knew to come round. But maybe police are still investigating this and still collecting/holding onto evidence regarding the second person (including, perhaps the second person's phone records?) until the murder trial is over?

I wondered this too (ie are the police withholding info re the night in question relating to the involvement of a second person, so as to charge the second person at a later time) but really, if the police had this type of info now, wouldn't they use it in the current trial as it would REALLY help secure GBCs conviction if they had some sort of evidence of contact made through the night with a second person (for example)?

 

[digitup]

RE 12 Angry Men It is a great movie! A must see!

 

[Freya1977]

The oldest child was 10 so maybe was used to looking after her sisters for a short time while alone. Yes, 10 is too young but it happens a lot.
If GBC was sleeping at TMCH's 4 nights a week who looked after the children when Allison walked, if she walked. I'm betting he left those kids alone.
Because my friend worked her young children used to come home from school alone but they were fine knowing their mum was never far away and her children wouldn't have panicked if they woke alone.
I saw little kiddies 5 & 7 in school uniform walking along a 6 lane highway. I thought of the risks but some mums don't have an option.

I've not heard that he ever stayed at TM's house... Where does that come from?

 

[Greg]

Gerard says he was asleep.. Gerard says, there was no argument.. Gerard says he knows nothing of panic and hiding the body and making up a story. Gerard says he didn't do it, she did it to herself. That's Gerards case. That's the defence he has paid for, and that is the defence his legal team argued. A jury cannot go beyond what the defendant has stated.

Gerard no more wants a manslaughter verdict than I do. There is one reason and one only why Gerard hasn't led a case for the argument, the panic, the restraint, all that stuff, is because a manslaughter conviction doesn't get him the money. He murdered for the money.

That's right he had a glimmer in his eye and murder on his mind,

And of course he had a duty to inform the insurance company, that would be the first thing on my mind if my beloved was just found in a ditch somewhere........

Lucky the insurance salesman/marriage counsellor was on hand to advise him.