GUILTY NH - AH, 14, North Conway, 9 October 2013 - #14

[Pensfan]

First let me say that I am very glad that Abby is alive and home with her family.

Now, let me say that we have learned a lot about pediatric and adolescent trauma in the past decade. Diplomatically, the following post is not fully in line with some of those recent advances and understandings.

Notice that my post stated severe trauma.

The trauma impacts and presentations PensFan is describing certainly can be seen but they certainly are not always seen. When they are seen then they start to suggest a PTSD diagnosis (which also requires some other criteria and an overall impairment of functioning). Statistically, PTSD occurs in approximately 15% of adolescents exposed to trauma, so far fewer do not develop PTSD than do. To be fair we now understand that children/adolescents who present with some PTSD diagnostic criteria but not enough to qualify with the diagnosis and/or those who are disqualified from the diagnosis because their global function scores do not indicate overall impairment of function can still benefit from therapeutic interventions (i.e. TF-CBT).

I would certainly not say that a child who was not outwardly displaying any of the above was presenting atypically after trauma [I would definitely not take a leap further and suggest that because of their presentation we should question whether they had truly been through a traumatic event]. I think we also need to consider that we are seeing a few snapshots in time (when Abby is in public) and these may or may not accurately reflect where she is overall. We don't know if she has nightmares every night, if she is overcome by intrusive memories throughout the day, or if she is now wary to do presumably safe things which she wouldn't have thought twice about in the past. Honestly, it is none of our business. During the period that Abby was missing it was very clear that she had two parents, a sister, and many other friends and family who loved her and would do anything necessary for her. Those people are now happily back in her life and I think that they are in the best position to support her through this and ensure that she receive outside help as appropriate and necessary. The rest of us really need to take a step back, offer a few prayers of thanksgiving that this child is alive, and perhaps few more for guidance and good judgment for those in our judicial system, and allow the Hernandez family to heal.

For any who are interested in learning more regarding pediatric/adolescent trauma, I generally think this can be a good place to start:
http://www.nctsn.org

Almost half of America’s youth will experience stress that qualifies as trauma by the time they are 18. Yes, not all of them develop PTSD symptom. This thread and my comments are related to an adolescent female who was allegedly locked in a shipping container (lights/heat/air conditioning/toilet/food unknown) in NH for 9 months after being abducted.

Below are the strongest predictors for developing PTSD symptoms (which would impair an adolescent victim’s ability to function normally for a finite time). An adolescent female, suddenly abducted and locked in shipping container away from her family/friends for 9 months, meets 7/8 predictors for experiencing PTSD symptoms:

-the traumatic experience caused fear of injury or death
-the traumatic experience caused fear of death of a loved one
-the traumatic event caused feelings of helplessness
-extended length of time to exposure to the trauma,
-the traumatic event’s onset was very sudden
-gender (females are more likely to develop PTSD symptoms)
-the victims’ unpleasant thoughts, feelings, beliefs, and experience surrounding the traumatic event
-the traumatic event disrupted family functioning

You are correct in that we are seeing snapshots in time. We don't know what AH is experiencing at home, but PTSD symptoms cannot be turned off and on. We will have to disagree that this is none of our business. I pay an inordinate amount of federal taxes and the FBI (payment comes from tax dollars) was involved. The public doesn't need to know the intimate details, but they are entitled to know if their tax dollars are well spent.

Pensfan
verified psychiatric mental health nurse

 

[Stolat]

Oh I'm not skeptical about that Dad, I am skeptical about the newpaper!

Lol! Good point. However, i felt the same about the Enquirer until John Edwards... Just sayin

And the Daily Fail was spot on about a friend of mine who was brutally assaulted. They accurately had details that I knew firsthand but many other media outlets failed to cite.

 

[SStarr33]

I think the interview with her father sounds 100% credible. I know nothing about the background of this situation as I just started following the story when she was found, but he sounds like a great guy.

 

[Curiosum]

I opted to reply to your post within your post. My thoughts are in bold/italic.

Notice that my post stated severe trauma.


Almost half of America’s youth will experience stress that qualifies as trauma by the time they are 18. Yes, not all of them develop PTSD symptom. This thread and my comments are related to an adolescent female who was allegedly locked in a shipping container (lights/heat/air conditioning/toilet/food unknown) in NH for 9 months after being abducted.

Below are the strongest predictors for developing PTSD symptoms (which would impair an adolescent victim’s ability to function normally for a finite time). An adolescent female, suddenly abducted and locked in shipping container away from her family/friends for 9 months, meets 7/8 predictors for experiencing PTSD symptoms:

-the traumatic experience caused fear of injury or death Given what has been shared I don't think we know this was actually the case in what AH experienced.
-the traumatic experience caused fear of death of a loved one Given what has been shared I don't think we know this was actually the case in what AH experienced
-the traumatic event caused feelings of helplessness
-extended length of time to exposure to the trauma,
-the traumatic event’s onset was very sudden
-gender (females are more likely to develop PTSD symptoms) This has been suggested in adults but the pediatric literature actually suggests that there is not a gender difference. This is an area under further study so perhaps we will see that change but right now, that is not the case from the literature.
-the victims’ unpleasant thoughts, feelings, beliefs, and experience surrounding the traumatic event
-the traumatic event disrupted family functioning In the pediatric/adolescent studies most looked at effective parental coping/empowerment/social support as protective factors. Ultimately neither of us know ZH but given how she has conducted herself throughout the period her daughter was missing, her own health care background, and her strong social support network I would think this risk factor would be much less of an issue.

Other predisposing factors for PTSD in Children/Adolescents:
-Genetic Predisposition
-Family H/O Mental Illness
-Lack of Social Support

Additionally, although not fully confirmed, there is a sense that severity of trauma is actually much less of a good predictor for PTSD than we thought in the past. This has been suggested in the pediatric literature and I know that adult gene studies are currently being conducted with US marines.

You are correct in that we are seeing snapshots in time. We don't know what AH is experiencing at home, but PTSD symptoms are not something that can be turned off and on. We will have to disagree that this is none of our business. I pay an inordinate amount of federal taxes and the FBI (payment comes from tax dollars) was involved. The public doesn't need to know the intimate details, but they are entitled to know if their tax dollars are well spent.

I guess we will have to disagree on this, on several levels. While I paid a six figure sum into the US treasury during the 2013 tax year and am in the process of doing the same and then some during the 2014 tax year, I don't feel I am more entitled to confidential information and details regarding an open investigation, than someone who pays less than me or than someone who pays nothing at all. I grasp that there are times when LE needs to avoid compromising an active investigation. Clearly if the charges against Kibby are going to stick some evidence will be needed and I trust that will be introduced at the time of his hearing and trial. I can be patient and allow LE and the justice system to do their jobs. Beyond that I suppose that I just really don't need all the details and I don't think I am entitled to them. I do believe that Abby Hernandez and her family have the right to some privacy, space, and peace through this time. They are not obligated to satisfy our curiosity and I suspect that they do not want to do anything which may compromise the investigation and set up a situation where Kibby is unable to be convicted on technicality and in a position to harm another child.

Pensfan
verified psychiatric mental health nurse

 

[takeitfromme412]

Yes. The law IS what it is, and there's plenty of defense. Everyone gets their chance in court. The commenters might need an education, but just as many other people need to think w/ their brain & not their heart. Bottom line - don't feed into the media, don't give the defense any help. 9 days until we see what the DA is taking to trial. Patience.

Jumping off this post as I haven't had time or honestly the desire to sit here and read...been busy with work....

Anyways, my personal experience is what I'm gonna share but it isn't exactly similar to this case.... with the exception of the media.... and remember, I work in journalism up here in NH....

She is a child. There is a suspect in custody. Ongoing investigation.....
When I was just a couple years older than Abby, I had a relentless stalker. I and NHSP Major Crimes and my local PD all knew who the suspect was, but could not find him. He was hiding while he was wanted.
Needless to say I was a prisoner in my own home. LE elected NOT to contact the media for help as it would spook him... but the ruthless local newspaper reporters./.. they were very well aware of what was going on and were relentless... could have totally ruined the case against this stalker who was probably going to murder me if he wasn't stopped.... the media made this VERY difficult for me.... they followed me and then I was being stalked by these idiot local reporters who only wanted to make me look bad for a story.... this suspect in my case was also over 30 years old and I was a teen.... RIDICULOUS!!!! My attitude towards them became vicious....
I get why abby went to court, she has EVERY RIGHT to be there... I went to court. I faced the man who committed offenses on me... I was at every single court date.... and I was scared to DEATH!
JBlock is right, please don't feed into the media.... saying thank you is fine, she is a survivor and can breathe again for the first time in quite a while but they are being relentless towards her. LE has this.... they have used every possible resource in evidence recovery and the investigation is still ongoing.... let them do their thing.... do you have tips?? they are still taking tips regarding Kibby..... let's let Abby get back to being Abby

 

[Stolat]

Ok, here are my thoughts. And I've felt this from the beginning ever since the dad came out long ago with that letter about her possibly having run away. The more recent details only confirms my thoughts. And they are only assumptions based on very etchy pieces that we have.

I think (don't everyone shoot me now) it is highly possible -and probable- that Abby got mixed up with the wrong guy and unknowingly walked into a hostile situation. That in no way condemns her, as she is just a kid and even adults can find themselves in this situation. I think she was lured in by a wolf. Who knows, maybe he offered a place to stay during a heated argument at home as teens are oft to have. They make hot-headed choices sometimes.

I for one believe the credibility that this father believed in Novemebr of last year that the words his daughter wrote indicated she left of her own volition -HOWEVER- I think at some point that situation changed and she was held against her will. I think he is a wolf in a disguise. The retired cop described him as very bright - I think he is capable of coming off as charming and helpful to deceive people and then his true sinister nature comes out.

I often got myself way over my head as a teen and to this day think that something similar could have happened to me. I think she had a guardian angel working double shift and it was divine intervention that he had a court date and potential jail time that may have prompted her release. If any of this is close to the truth, i do not fault her as I have made far more poor choices that could have resulted in death. If anything I hope it is an experience that refines her strength as a young woman and a survivor.

I'll be the first to say I can be entirely wrong and likely first to change my mind as more facts come out to the contrary. I am open minded and purely seeker of truth and justice for all victims.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Lol! Good point. However, i felt the same about the Enquirer until John Edwards... Just sayin

And the Daily Fail was spot on about a friend of mine who was brutally assaulted. They accurately had details that I knew firsthand but many other media outlets failed to cite.

According to Jeffrey Hastings' <modsnip>. ('Course he works with them, so understandable bias!). But, in this case at least, I have to admit my surprise that they do seem to be doing a more thorough job. JMO

(ETA: My personal favorite has been Boston Globe, though. They seem most free of bias/error, IMO.)

 

[Curiosum]

You are correct in that we are seeing snapshots in time. We don't know what AH is experiencing at home, but PTSD symptoms cannot be turned off and on.

Pensfan
verified psychiatric mental health nurse

I wanted to respond to this separately. When I referred to the snapshot in time I was thinking of particular child. I'll be vague so as not to reveal any truly identifying details (although I know both she and her parents would state that if sharing their experiences would be helpful to someone else to feel free). As an older pre-teen this child was the victim of an act of violence and sustained some significant physical injuries (think emergency surgery and then a significant PICU and PM&R course to follow). A long time cherished friend of this child was similarly injured but did not survive. This child did survive and embraced life but she still had some nightmares, she still had some pain (related to some of the medical complications of the injuries) and that pain sometimes triggered flashbacks to the original event. She had no control over these symptoms initially but in between them she was a completely different child. She laughed, she smiled, she loved her family and friends, she appreciated her parents, she excelled at a certain musical instrument and even got back into her sport, where she excelled as she had before. Overall her global functioning was great because she could come out of the scary moments and go on with life. She wasn't depressed, she wasn't engaging in dangerous or risky behaviors or experimenting/self medicating with drugs or alcohol. She did not meet criteria for a PTSD diagnosis but she clearly had experienced significant trauma and she had parents who loved her and wanted her to have the best possible life.

Her parents also had some advantages that other families may not be fortunate enough to have [ironically or blessedly I suspect the Hernandez's have many/all of these as well], they had a strong family support network in the extended family, they had abundant financial resources, they didn't have their own mental health/substance abuse/addiction struggles that made it harder for them to step up for their child, and they were capable of advocating for their child. One of the parents was a physician (although not in either pediatrics or psychiatry which would have been the most relevant fields) so they had a good understanding of navigating the health care system to find the right physicians, ability to read and understand the merits of TF-CBT, and then the financial resources to pay out of pocket when insurance suggested that they wouldn't pay for TF-CBT without a true PTSD diagnosis. Through TF-CBT and diligent work on this child's part (and work on the part of her parents who encouraged and supported skills use at home) she did manage to essentially "turn the intrusive symptoms off".

I think the fact that this child was impacted, but did not truly develop diagnosable PTSD, probably speaks to the concept of genetic predisposition towards resilience, along with the significant social support she had. I think it also underscores that these symptoms can be treated successfully and that treatment should not be withheld until a child truly meets all diagnostic criteria (which is now at least understood in the pediatrics and child psychiatry world and has become a bit less of an insurance fight recently).

 

[takeitfromme412]

Respectfully shortened
I haven't read anything that suggests Abigail should be ashamed. Perhaps you confused “be ashamed” with posts suggesting that Abigail's behavior is inconsistent for an alleged (recent) victim of severe trauma. (I AM NOT STATING MY OPINION.)


There are very consistent, predictable patterns of behavior that occur in recent trauma victims.
1. A recent trauma victim relives his/her helplessness as if it were occuring in the present. These traumatic memories are replayed as vivid visual images and vivid sensations. This is not something that a recent trauma victim can immediately control. Because of these continuously replayed memories, severely traumatized people have great difficulty resuming normal activities within a short time frame.

2. Recently traumatized people have repetitive uncontrollable compulsions where they reenact scenes from their trauma in numerous ways. To stop these compulsions, they withdraw physically and/or mentally.

3. A recently traumatized person desperately tries to avoid triggers of his horrific experience.


Pensfan
verified psychiatric mental health nurse

This is all so VERY VERY true..... great post!!!! Thank you!!!!!

 

[Redux]

Just throwing this out there, not to anyone in particular, but there is also the possibility of delayed onset of PTSD symptoms, isn't there? My estranged husband was diagnosed as having PTSD many years after his traumatic events, and hadn't shown any (at least overtly) symptoms for many years after the event until another event seemed to trigger something in his head.

On another note, I was once in a car accident when I was 17 years old. I watched the car approach me from behind in my mirror and knew it was going to hit me so I had a few moments of conscious sheer terror. After he hit me, he attempted to hit me again (he was high and drunk). I had what I would now call post traumatic stress symptoms for a few years afterwards. I don't know that I would say that I had PTSD, but I definitely suffered symptoms that are associated with PTSD (I hesitate to say that I actually had PTSD as the symptoms eventually subsided after a couple of years without any intervention).

However, if you were to ask anyone in my family, they would have no clue that I did - I hid it well as I thought I was being overreactive with my fears and reactions. As a matter of fact, I mentioned it recently to my best friend, and she said she had no idea what I went through. Of course my trauma was nowhere on a level of what I would guess that Abby went through, just my point is that sometimes symptoms get locked away deep inside in the brain's attempt at self-preservation or get hidden for a plethora of reasons.

Just saying that IF Abby were to develop PTSD from this, it wouldn't necessarily show right away or she could possibly hide symptoms from others.

 

[Wolf Dreamer]

They usually take their US stories from US papers, so quite surprised to see this seems to be an genuine exclusive. I think the reporter has been doing some work in conjunction with Associated Press, so it may be that RH gave the interview and then the reporter hawked it out, so it could yet appear elsewhere. The Daily Mail's website gets a huge amount of traffic from the US, last year it was nearly 37% (of a worldwide readership of over 50 million), so it's not as unlikely a place for RH to speak out as it might seem.

 

[Steleheart]

I know I am taking a break from the case, but please remember that diagnoses can only be based on an examination with a person. Speculation of diagnoses is worthless and IMO can be damaging.

Diagnoses are based, in fact on the DSMV classifications and are, largely, though scientific in nature, only economic in their function. If you are a professional using the DSMV use your head instead or else keep feeding from the trough.

My :cow:

 

[jojo87]

In Ireland and the UK the Daily Mail is often referred to as the Daily Outrage . Recently they made up a story about George Clooney and that's not the first time they've had to apologize.

 

[jamber]

Hey, y'all! This is my very first post and its probably already been mentioned since y'all are on a different topic now, but a few threads back I read that Kibby is much taller than Abby's 5'4 frame (and the sketch said they were looking for a short man). I'm 5'3 and my husband is 6'2. I don't notice how much bigger he is than me until I look at pictures of us together. When you're standing/sitting next to someone you don't pay too much attention to their height. Once again, sorry this is so off topic.

 

[SStarr33]

Daily Mail is now my go to source when there is a big story--I think they do a good job with them. My source used to be CNN, LOL. How far they have fallen.

IMO, DM news stories are more credible than their celebrity stories.

 

[alreetlike]

I always despised the Daily Mail until I started following missing people cases or big murders etc from the US. Their coverage of those is far better than anything else from the UK, including their photos.

 

[Max17]

David Sakowich &#8207;@dsakowich_WMUR
Emergency hearing scheduled for Wed. for suspect charged in kidnapping of Abby Hernandez. His attorney looking to preserve evidence.
https://twitter.com/dsakowich_WMUR/status/496735870779936769

Trent Spiner &#8207;@TrentWMUR
Breaking: Emergency hearing tomorrow in the Abby Hernandez case over how to preserve storage shed, trailer in Gorham.
https://twitter.com/TrentWMUR/status/496739465390747648

Defense moves to preserve evidence in Abigail Hernandez case
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...ubqOps6H0frwTzlk4mmO/story.html?event=event25

Lawyers for Nathaniel E. Kibby, the man accused of kidnapping New Hampshire teen Abigail Hernandez last October, have filed a motion to prevent investigators from removing a mobile home and storage container from Kibby&#8217;s property in Gorham, N.H.

 

[MamaJoJo]

I'm no expert but I do agree with pensfan...

of-this-topic question: did ZH's published letter to abby come before or after she received hers? I don't remember discussion on this but I missed a few threads in the last 9 months...

TIA.

IIRC, Z's letter to Abby was at Christmastime; Abby's letter to them arrived early November.

It was RH's first letter which was published a few days before news of Abby's letter was made public.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Daily Mail is now my go to source when there is a big story--I think they do a good job with them. My source used to be CNN, LOL. How far they have fallen.

LOL. Well put.

IMO, DM news stories are more credible than their celebrity stories.

Agreed...with the celebrity stories they seem to have more the tabloid approach (probably because they are a tabloid). ;D The rules are different, and their lawyers know it. But they do seem to try to channel that comprehensive digging to help with the missing cases. That there is more error in some of what they print is probably just because they tend to get more info and write longer articles than most. And their photos are among the best.

 

[white rabbit]

whoa...hold the phone and shut the front door.

I don't understand so can a legal beagle chime in here? "preserve evidence"? they've dismantled, torn apart, photographed and processed for 10 days now. why does the prosecution want to move it, and why does the defense want it to stay put? help a rabbit out...TIA...

(and thank you poirotry and mamajojo for clarification on the letters)