PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[J. J. in Phila]

Wasn't it legal to have Swiss and other non- USA bank accounts until the 21st century?

He could have bought rarities that would sell at a profit or at least not at a loss upon his death. Rare coins, rare stamps, maybe gold bullion under the amount of purchase that has to be reported... People buy and sell privately. I know because I have a very wealthy ( multi-millionaire) friend who buys gold coins from S. Africa and gold bullion and hides it in a safe. ( He's extremely conservative and also extremely private- sound familiar?)

It was legal to have those accounts, and gold et c. They would be counted in his estate, however.

(Interest on those accounts, if above $1300, would be included on RFG financial disclosure statements.)

 

[MissJ]

Can anyone come up with things that RFG could have done to keep money out of his estate.

So far, I have:

1. Insurance.

2. Irrevocable trusts.

3. Payable upon death accounts.

It is for a blog.

Legitimate things, not hiding money in the Cayman Islands or anything.

Payable on death account? Whose death? RFG would need money to live on if he walked away. That has been my biggest sticking point with his being a walkaway. I don't believe he walked away to be a cashier at Walmart with an assumed identity. We know he can't work as a lawyer. So how did he finance it? The only thing I can think of is a bank account under a false identity. If the account was initiated many years ago it may have been fairly easy....in the 70's and 80's say. I know of people who had them. Are fake identity items easy to secure in RFG's area? I'm sure he would have known how to do this. JMO

 

[SeekingJana]

It was legal to have those accounts, and gold et c. They would be counted in his estate, however.

(Interest on those accounts, if above $1300, would be included on RFG financial disclosure statements.)

IF no one knew he had the assets OR if they were able to transfer the items to their possession after Ray disappeared, then isn't it possible that they were not reported, if considered a gift? Also, I'm not convinced that everyone is completely honest with those county employment financial disclosure statements.. Who's going to follow up on something that's bought covertly, over time, and kept out of sight?

 

[SeekingJana]

Payable on death account? Whose death? RFG would need money to live on if he walked away. That has been my biggest sticking point with his being a walkaway. I don't believe he walked away to be a cashier at Walmart with an assumed identity. We know he can't work as a lawyer. So how did he finance it? The only thing I can think of is a bank account under a false identity. If the account was initiated many years ago it may have been fairly easy....in the 70's and 80's say. I know of people who had them. Are fake identity items easy to secure in RFG's area? I'm sure he would have known how to do this. JMO

I think he very well may have established bank accounts in Eastern Europe or elsewhere years ago. It likely wasn't illegal when he started doing it. if he did this, nor for the majority of the time we know he was working and able to send money overseas. Once the electronic banking system changed for US customers, I believe he could have mailed small-ish sized packets of money to his relatives overseas and entrusted them with the physical deposits. Maybe deposited in their name, maybe in his name as it would be in a Slavic language.. IDK.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Payable on death account? Whose death? RFG would need money to live on if he walked away. That has been my biggest sticking point with his being a walkaway. I don't believe he walked away to be a cashier at Walmart with an assumed identity. We know he can't work as a lawyer. So how did he finance it? The only thing I can think of is a bank account under a false identity. If the account was initiated many years ago it may have been fairly easy....in the 70's and 80's say. I know of people who had them. Are fake identity items easy to secure in RFG's area? I'm sure he would have known how to do this. JMO

The question does not have anything to do with walkaway.

RFG's estate was quite low, less than $25 K. I'm looking at potential explanations for that other than he had all money in a Swiss bank account.

One of our other posted noted, correctly, that RFG could have an account (including a stock account) made "payable on death." He could still access the funds in it, while alive, but it would be paid to his designee upon his death, without going into the estate. That could explain why his estate was so low in value. He would have to pay taxes and report any interest on the accounts though.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

IF no one knew he had the assets OR if they were able to transfer the items to their possession after Ray disappeared, then isn't it possible that they were not reported, if considered a gift? Also, I'm not convinced that everyone is completely honest with those county employment financial disclosure statements.. Who's going to follow up on something that's bought covertly, over time, and kept out of sight?

It is possible, but I am trying to come up with a scenario where RFG is not a felon.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think he very well may have established bank accounts in Eastern Europe or elsewhere years ago. It likely wasn't illegal when he started doing it. if he did this, nor for the majority of the time we know he was working and able to send money overseas. Once the electronic banking system changed for US customers, I believe he could have mailed small-ish sized packets of money to his relatives overseas and entrusted them with the physical deposits. Maybe deposited in their name, maybe in his name as it would be in a Slavic language.. IDK.

It wouldn't be illegal to have a foreign account. Mitt Romney has them. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/20/why-mitt-romney-invests-overseas.html

Someone with a foreign account has to report any interest (and some foreign accounts have higher interest). Mitt Romney does that as well.

 

[shadow of my mind]

Considering RFG's tax returns have been sealed we can't see any amounts of interest he was earning and on what. The question, of course, is what could there be that he could "cash in" and not have a paper trail?

The only thing that I can think of is Bearer Bonds. If that would actually work is something that I am so not qualified in that I wouldn't even venture a guess on.

I know they were very popular in the US and I used to take the clipped coupons to the bank all the time when I was running errands for my Great Aunt right up until she passed in 2003 at the age of 102. The rules about Bearer Bonds have changed and they are now not the same, at least in the US.
Treasury Bonds may also be something to look at. The last call date for Treasury Bonds was in 2009 but again I don't really know enough about them except that the interest rate was exceptional. My Aunt had them as well.

See this article:
http://riskencyclopedia.com/articles/book_entry_registered_bearer_bonds/

and note the details under "book entry".

Could something of this nature have been set up, possibly through a tax attorney who would be acting as RFG "broker" as well. I still can't see how RFG could get his hands on cash money without setting off something that could be traced, unless someone was "holding" it in their name for him or it was being converted under a false identity. The false identity part would then be problematic for falling under the client-attorney privilege.

Then you have Sloane making the statement that RFG was not savvy with anything to do with financial planning. Is that statement a Trojan Horse?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Considering RFG's tax returns have been sealed we can't see any amounts of interest he was earning and on what. The question, of course, is what could there be that he could "cash in" and not have a paper trail?

The only thing that I can think of is Bearer Bonds. If that would actually work is something that I am so not qualified in that I wouldn't even venture a guess on.

We actually do have his own (and LG's) statements that there was no single source of interest of $1,300 in both 2004 and 2005. RFG had to file financial disclosure statements. Interest in a safe investment, a CD, would generate about 2% in 2004. It would be a CD around $65 K.

I'm looking for something tat:

1. Wouldn't generate reportable interest (assuming that neither LG no RFG were falsifying forms).

2. Would not be counted in the estate. I think you might have been the one that a "payable upon death" designation would keep it out of the estate.

3. Would be accessible to RFG to spend (that would eliminate things like life insurance).

I'm basically trying to come up with something that would account for those three things and do not point to an off-shore account or putting most of his money into estate planning devices. Those two things clearly point to something voluntary. I'm looking for things that maybe would point to RFG planning to spend the next 20 years in retirement.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I found some information on Bearer Bonds, and they need an SSN to be redeemed. https://www.wellsfargo.com/com/corporate-trust/bondholder/bearer-bonds

They are rapidly becoming extinct: http://www.investopedia.com/articles/bonds/08/bearer-bond.asp

If RFG as doing estate planning in the 2000's, I don't think this would be a likely option.

 

[JaimeSommers]

Speculation below!

What if RFG had a relationship with another woman out of town, out of state, etc., to whom he was sending money for a secret account. Perhaps he used the laptop for all of his communication with her and related banking. Maybe they met online. Maybe she was younger and RFG saw an opportunity for a new start. What if she became pregnant and he wanted to be with her -- he may not have wanted his daughter to know, and he may have wanted to spare Patty the embarrassment. He would know enough to leave enough money to not raise immediate red flags, and would set things up to ensure his daughter was taken care of.

Yes, I know this is a long shot, but nothing else is panning out, so who knows? There are certainly plenty of savvy professional men and women who stage disappearances and/or deaths. They are able to keep it from their families and closest friends.

Maybe his brother's suicide was a wake-up call to live his life happily, and (in his mind) to do so would mean drastic steps. The closer he got to the day he was leaving, the more distracted he was by the seriousness of what he was about to do.

No one here knows RFG, and no one here has solved the mystery, so who's to say it couldn't be possible?

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

Speculation below!

What if RFG had a relationship with another woman out of town, out of state, etc., to whom he was sending money for a secret account. Perhaps he used the laptop for all of his communication with her and related banking. Maybe they met online. Maybe she was younger and RFG saw an opportunity for a new start. What if she became pregnant and he wanted to be with her -- he may not have wanted his daughter to know, and he may have wanted to spare Patty the embarrassment. He would know enough to leave enough money to not raise immediate red flags, and would set things up to ensure his daughter was taken care of.

Yes, I know this is a long shot, but nothing else is panning out, so who knows? There are certainly plenty of savvy professional men and women who stage disappearances and/or deaths. They are able to keep it from their families and closest friends.

Maybe his brother's suicide was a wake-up call to live his life happily, and (in his mind) to do so would mean drastic steps. The closer he got to the day he was leaving, the more distracted he was by the seriousness of what he was about to do.

No one here knows RFG, and no one here has solved the mystery, so who's to say it couldn't be possible?

I think everyone would like to know about the walk in the park thursday evening with PF ?????? what was said true from each others heart

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I will concede, from personal experience, that flirting on-line is possible. Very Possible.

He would have to be in physical proximity to get someone pregnant.

The fly in the theory that, at least locally, no woman is missing. LE did look at a woman who disappeared at about the same time in the mid west (IA? MO?), but they couldn't find any link.

If there was another woman, she did not leave with him to start a new life. Granted, she could have joined him later.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think everyone would like to know about the walk in the park thursday evening with PF ?????? what was said true from each others heart

They were not seen having a heart to heard or arguing, just walking. One witness, a former county commissioner Vickie Wedler, said that the looked like, a "perfect couple." http://www.centredaily.com/2005/05/13/3777/corbett-says-hope-fading-for-gricar.html

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

They were not seen having a heart to heard or arguing, just walking. One witness, a former county commissioner Vickie Wedler, said that the looked like, a "perfect couple." http://www.centredaily.com/2005/05/13/3777/corbett-says-hope-fading-for-gricar.html

yes I do know that but just what were they talking about and as close as VW was to them what did she see what was he wearing as to clothes did she ever say?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

yes I do know that but just what were they talking about and as close as VW was to them what did she see what was he wearing as to clothes did she ever say?

She didn't say, but he was wearing the fleece pullover and jeans about 20-30 minutes later. He's on the court house security camera.

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

She didn't say, but he was wearing the fleece pullover and jeans about 20-30 minutes later. He's on the court house security camera.

Yes I read that I would like to know what she seen him in also They say you are the expert on RG and centre county I will say I have lived in this county for over 50 years I was not born here also I do live close to bellefonte did you go to college at PSU and if you did were you ever in pattee this would be about BA an employee back before 1985 was talking and I was there saying the place had a ghost and I replied where so that person told me the story so I said let me see where this happened so that person took me down to the newspaper reading room right at the table where she was looking at what ever she was reading so I looked around alot of news papers down there I also looked at the table you know how people make marks in stuff by knife;pen ;and other ways i was not sure it was the same table from when she was there but there was alot of stuff on it so after that the same employee took me up into the stacks to where she was killed to me I always had to wonder what she was looking at down in the news paper room and why it lead her to the stacks was someone watching her down there and then she might have noticed someone watching her and she starting walking to see if she was being followed not sure why did someone come to RG later on about that

 

[SeekingJana]

I will concede, from personal experience, that flirting on-line is possible. Very Possible.

He would have to be in physical proximity to get someone pregnant.

The fly in the theory that, at least locally, no woman is missing. LE did look at a woman who disappeared at about the same time in the mid west (IA? MO?), but they couldn't find any link.

If there was another woman, she did not leave with him to start a new life. Granted, she could have joined him later.

My first and favorite theory has been that a woman left totally independently of Ray but was very involved with him and is with him now.
She could have left first, not second.

She may have never set foot in PA. He had a life before PA.

I think it is short- sighted to ONLY look at women in PA. She could have lived anywhere in any country. People DO re-unite via the Internet after 20-30 or more years apart and resume very significant romances long distance until they can be together.

I have always felt that the woman would have been totally unattached: She had a career that was moble ( such as a nurse, for example), she had no close family, no children, and could easily say she was transferring to another state for any reason or NO reason. I did it, so do many other nurses.
But, I really did go to another state. In our case with the lover, she left the USA. Had her own source of income or is independently wealthy ( not from a nursing career most likely- that was just an example of a career which gives a lot of leeway on " tranfering" to another place.

There could be as much as 5 years difference in the dates of leave- taking between the two. I believe the woman went first because of Ray's work and because of loose ends with Patty. Maybe he never intended for this to happen. Maybe he thought he could reconnect with an old lover from OH with no harm to anyone, but love developed.
It happens. I know it does. It's happened to me. .. in the past. And now, if the same thing happened, I'd go. I'd totally leave and go to the person I wanted to be with, even if it meant laying low in a foreign country for a few years or changing my name or having no contact with anyone I'd ever known except this lover. Who in our case would be Ray Gricar.
Maybe Ray's case has taught some of us things we never expected to know or feel.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Yes I read that I would like to know what she seen him in also They say you are the expert on RG and centre county I will say I have lived in this county for over 50 years I was not born here also I do live close to bellefonte did you go to college at PSU and if you did were you ever in pattee this would be about BA an employee back before 1985 was talking and I was there saying the place had a ghost and I replied where so that person told me the story so I said let me see where this happened so that person took me down to the newspaper reading room right at the table where she was looking at what ever she was reading so I looked around alot of news papers down there I also looked at the table you know how people make marks in stuff by knife;pen ;and other ways i was not sure it was the same table from when she was there but there was alot of stuff on it so after that the same employee took me up into the stacks to where she was killed to me I always had to wonder what she was looking at down in the news paper room and why it lead her to the stacks was someone watching her down there and then she might have noticed someone watching her and she starting walking to see if she was being followed not sure why did someone come to RG later on about that

I won't say expert, but i did live in the area for a quarter century and held local public office several times in the area, and did go to PSU.

It sounds like you are referring to the Betsy Aardsma murder in the Pattee Library stacks in 1985. A poster, Littlehorn, is the resident expert on that case, and there is a thread.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

My first and favorite theory has been that a woman left totally independently of Ray but was very involved with him and is with him now.
She could have left first, not second.

She may have never set foot in PA. He had a life before PA.

I think it is short- sighted to ONLY look at women in PA. She could have lived anywhere in any country. People DO re-unite via the Internet after 20-30 or more years apart and resume very significant romances long distance until they can be together.

I have always felt that the woman would have been totally unattached: She had a career that was moble ( such as a nurse, for example), she had no close family, no children, and could easily say she was transferring to another state for any reason or NO reason. I did it, so do many other nurses.
But, I really did go to another state. In our case with the lover, she left the USA. Had her own source of income or is independently wealthy ( not from a nursing career most likely- that was just an example of a career which gives a lot of leeway on " tranfering" to another place.

There could be as much as 5 years difference in the dates of leave- taking between the two. I believe the woman went first because of Ray's work and because of loose ends with Patty. Maybe he never intended for this to happen. Maybe he thought he could reconnect with an old lover from OH with no harm to anyone, but love developed.
It happens. I know it does. It's happened to me. .. in the past. And now, if the same thing happened, I'd go. I'd totally leave and go to the person I wanted to be with, even if it meant laying low in a foreign country for a few years or changing my name or having no contact with anyone I'd ever known except this lover. Who in our case would be Ray Gricar.
Maybe Ray's case has taught some of us things we never expected to know or feel.

Possible. It wouldn't necessarily explain the secrecy in leaving.