PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[J. J. in Phila]

First, I would like to thank everyone for having a lively, thought provoking, and civil discussion.

Back from a week in the Nevada desert. No email and cell phone coverage is a wonderful thing in this day and age.

Anyone have a theory as to what PSU might have as a form of "leverage" on RFG to make the Sandusky issue "go away"?

Roughly 50% of the electorate in Centre County either goes to, went to, works at, or is retired from, Penn State. That excludes the relatives of those people that don't fit into those categories, people who make money indirectly from the university or students, and football fans.

I don't know if they'd need more leverage than that.

 

[JaimeSommers]

Back from a week in the Nevada desert. No email and cell phone coverage is a wonderful thing in this day and age.

Anyone have a theory as to what PSU might have as a form of "leverage" on RFG to make the Sandusky issue "go away"?

It wouldn't necessarily have to be PSU. There are a lot of powerful alums of this university. A raging Good Ol' Boys network from top to bottom.

 

[SeekingJana]

I stated previously that I could see RFG passing on prosecution because the potential for stigma and harassment for the victim and the uncertainty of obtaining a guilty verdict. It would also be disastrous for his re-election chances. Weighing the positive and negatives, RFG may have made a reasonable decision not to prosecute.

But the October 98 meeting at the PSU football building with the investigating officers and a member of the football coaching staff complicates the matter. Traditionally, in college towns with major football programs, punishment for player misbehavior was often handled "in house." The police, whether city or campus, would notify the coaching staff when a player got in trouble and the coaches will handle it. It's a way to save the football program from any bad press.

This type of relationship is changing, mainly because it's impossible to keep player indiscretions out of the media due to the internet and social media, but in this particular case we're discussing something that occurred in 98. Penn State was extreme in handling player punishment "in house" because of the university's isolated location (limited media scrutiny) and the fact that Joe Paterno had been at PSU since the days of the Eisenhower Administration. It doesn't get much more "old school" than Joe Pa.

My concern for RFG is that, in the October 98 meeting, he warned the PSU police and the PSU coaching staff that Sandusky was not allowed to shower with boys anymore (Seasock's recommendation and the warning that Schreffler had already given Sandusky) and that Sandusky was to get some kind of counseling. I find it difficult to believe that RFG would simply not press charges and wash his hands of the situation. I give him more credit than that.

Obviously, the above conditions were never met, if such a warning was delivered.




Yikes! That brings back bad memories of an unhealthy, co-dependent past relationship of mine. As I've gotten older and, hopefully, wiser, I now realize that I was in such a relationship because I wanted to feel better about myself. I felt guilty about my failures to meet my responsibilities and there was nothing like a damsel in distress to make me feel the hero. Of course, it ended in disaster.

If RFG was in such a relationship, then I don't believe he was in a good place in his life.


JMO

I guess it's reasonable in hindsight to either assume that Mr. Gricar didn't make his recommendations " strongly" or that Sandusky and PSU chose to ignore the elephant in the room- the pedophilia. Maybe a combo of both..

About women needing to leave their pasts behind them- I am sure that many very smart and savvy women have had spouses turn to criminal behavior or have had rank strangers start stalking them. This is NO reflection on the woman's character IF she does leave. As I said, I think that if there was a woman, she did leave separately. And stayed separate for years, possibly up to 5 years before beginning anything with Ray or rekindling an old relationship.
Women are not responsible for the heinous acts of others any more than men are IF they do all they can do to get themselves to a safe place.
Since all of this is hypothetical, I certainly don't think we have facts to judge. I am very sorry that you were in a relationship with a needy person who was not strong. Each of us has to be whole unto ourselves before we can give anything to anyone else, and sometimes one person does need more than they have a right to expect from another person. I hope your life is happy now.

 

[SeekingJana]

It wouldn't necessarily have to be PSU. There are a lot of powerful alums of this university. A raging Good Ol' Boys network from top to bottom.

THIS resonates with me more than PSU officials or coaching staffers.. Because with Sandusky, the number of people PSU would have had to pay off in 10 years would have been large.

Thank you for adding an element from PSU but not " of" PSU that addresses what I believe fits into the roles people assume in scandals. I think it would be alums funding the hush money, if there was any, also, as you have said.

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

Not having to face Sandusky's victims and explain why he didn't prosecute sounds better. Not having to face his daughter to explain his cowardice sounds better. Not wanting to deal with the wrath of the Penn State football fanatics sounds better. Those are just some the options. I could think of others.

And, by the way, if there was/is "another woman", it wouldn't automatically mean the above possibilities are incorrect. Fleeing with another person and starting a new life together, with brand new identities, is much more attractive when possible scandal is hanging over one's head.


JMO

Or it could go like this they were togehter friday morning heading to lewisburg someone else got wind of it and wanted to find out what was going on /which way would it go / in who's favor

 

[BigCat]

I guess it's reasonable in hindsight to either assume that Mr. Gricar didn't make his recommendations " strongly" or that Sandusky and PSU chose to ignore the elephant in the room- the pedophilia. Maybe a combo of both..

About women needing to leave their pasts behind them- I am sure that many very smart and savvy women have had spouses turn to criminal behavior or have had rank strangers start stalking them. This is NO reflection on the woman's character IF she does leave. As I said, I think that if there was a woman, she did leave separately. And stayed separate for years, possibly up to 5 years before beginning anything with Ray or rekindling an old relationship.
Women are not responsible for the heinous acts of others any more than men are IF they do all they can do to get themselves to a safe place.
Since all of this is hypothetical, I certainly don't think we have facts to judge. I am very sorry that you were in a relationship with a needy person who was not strong. Each of us has to be whole unto ourselves before we can give anything to anyone else, and sometimes one person does need more than they have a right to expect from another person. I hope your life is happy now.

I didn't mean to give the impression I was placing any blame on a "weak" female, either hypothetically or in my past. Sorry I didn't make that clearer. I meant to suggest that there is often a lot of self-deception in playing the hero. Sometimes solving another person's problems is way to run away from one's own.

(Yes, my life is happy now. **knock on wood** Thanks for your concern. )

 

[J. J. in Phila]

People will probably know who RFG's old girlfriends were. They could be checked out.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Okay, I am playing Devil's Advocate here, but if we are talking about another woman, she could be a murderess.

RFG was acting oddly. What if he wanted to break up with her? That could cause that. Perhaps it was a lovers' quarrel.

 

[SeekingJana]

People will probably know who RFG's old girlfriends were. They could be checked out.

While I think you truly do believe this, , I would like to point out that in most cases of people who have dating partners all throughout their lives, this is just not correct for some people with extensive dating histories and a knack for keeping their private life truly private.

For example, I was on FB for 2 years. During that time, 3 men I had liked and been loved by and whom neither my family nor my friends knew contacted me to say they still felt the same way, would leave to be with me or we could pick a totally different place to live ( since I now live 1000 miles away), and so forth. I was dumbfounded. I never expected ANYONE to have those strong feelings for me, and certainly not after I have been married well over a decade and a half. It's been over 20 years since I've seen or talked to any of the three, although I could see from their FB profiles that they were still handsome, not married and were successful men.

We need to be careful not to limit what we THINK can happen by our own experiences- especially if our own experiences are limited, J.J.
I was very discreet and quiet about my dating years, and sometimes, I was casually dating 3-4 men at the same time, nothing serious in my mind about any of them. But they never met each othee or any of my other friends or my family. What I deemed casual, a few apparently wanted something much deeper ( maybe the absence grows fonder type of thing).

Likewise, Ray could have done the same thing. You date outside your place of residence and definitely outside your work place, you date people who live out of state with traveling involved, you fly to a distant state quite often to meet the person. People do all that and it's still " casual" meaning " I'm not ready to make a commitment" or " We are both dating others". These are the thoughts and emotions that sometimes swing wildly to another level of commitment. A love grows from a friendly dating situation. Or one person becomes ill, and the other realizes how much they would miss them. And so forth.
The strength of Ray's feelings at any given time might be summed up with the impromptu marriage proposal to a nurse he had just met..

 

[MissJ]

People will probably know who RFG's old girlfriends were. They could be checked out.

Go all the way back to HS if they do.

 

[MissJ]

While I think you truly do believe this, , I would like to point out that in most cases of people who have dating partners all throughout their lives, this is just not correct for some people with extensive dating histories and a knack for keeping their private life truly private.

For example, I was on FB for 2 years. During that time, 3 men I had liked and been loved by and whom neither my family nor my friends knew contacted me to say they still felt the same way, would leave to be with me or we could pick a totally different place to live ( since I now live 1000 miles away), and so forth. I was dumbfounded. I never expected ANYONE to have those strong feelings for me, and certainly not after I have been married well over a decade and a half. It's been over 20 years since I've seen or talked to any of the three, although I could see from their FB profiles that they were still handsome, not married and were successful men.

We need to be careful not to limit what we THINK can happen by our own experiences- especially if our own experiences are limited, J.J.
I was very discreet and quiet about my dating years, and sometimes, I was casually dating 3-4 men at the same time, nothing serious in my mind about any of them. But they never met each othee or any of my other friends or my family. What I deemed casual, a few apparently wanted something much deeper ( maybe the absence grows fonder type of thing).

Likewise, Ray could have done the same thing. You date outside your place of residence and definitely outside your work place, you date people who live out of state with traveling involved, you fly to a distant state quite often to meet the person. People do all that and it's still " casual" meaning " I'm not ready to make a commitment" or " We are both dating others". These are the thoughts and emotions that sometimes swing wildly to another level of commitment. A love grows from a friendly dating situation. Or one person becomes ill, and the other realizes how much they would miss them. And so forth.
The strength of Ray's feelings at any given time might be summed up with the impromptu marriage proposal to a nurse he had just met..

Good points. My family and friends didn't always know who I dated. For good reason. Even the ones they knew....they might be surprised to learn the strength of feelings or lack of in many cases. RFG's proposal to the nurse was very interesting. he really had a sense of adventure. JMO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Go all the way back to HS if they do.

I was able to find someone, potentially, back to 1986.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped

For example, I was on FB for 2 years. During that time, 3 men I had liked and been loved by and whom neither my family nor my friends knew contacted me to say they still felt the same way, would leave to be with me or we could pick a totally different place to live ( since I now live 1000 miles away), and so forth. I was dumbfounded. I never expected ANYONE to have those strong feelings for me, and certainly not after I have been married well over a decade and a half. It's been over 20 years since I've seen or talked to any of the three, although I could see from their FB profiles that they were still handsome, not married and were successful men.

There would be a record of those, in a server. We, those of us posting here, would not have the resources to check. LE definitely would.

 

[JaimeSommers]

While I think you truly do believe this, , I would like to point out that in most cases of people who have dating partners all throughout their lives, this is just not correct for some people with extensive dating histories and a knack for keeping their private life truly private.

For example, I was on FB for 2 years. During that time, 3 men I had liked and been loved by and whom neither my family nor my friends knew contacted me to say they still felt the same way, would leave to be with me or we could pick a totally different place to live ( since I now live 1000 miles away), and so forth. I was dumbfounded. I never expected ANYONE to have those strong feelings for me, and certainly not after I have been married well over a decade and a half. It's been over 20 years since I've seen or talked to any of the three, although I could see from their FB profiles that they were still handsome, not married and were successful men.

We need to be careful not to limit what we THINK can happen by our own experiences- especially if our own experiences are limited, J.J.
I was very discreet and quiet about my dating years, and sometimes, I was casually dating 3-4 men at the same time, nothing serious in my mind about any of them. But they never met each othee or any of my other friends or my family. What I deemed casual, a few apparently wanted something much deeper ( maybe the absence grows fonder type of thing).

Likewise, Ray could have done the same thing. You date outside your place of residence and definitely outside your work place, you date people who live out of state with traveling involved, you fly to a distant state quite often to meet the person. People do all that and it's still " casual" meaning " I'm not ready to make a commitment" or " We are both dating others". These are the thoughts and emotions that sometimes swing wildly to another level of commitment. A love grows from a friendly dating situation. Or one person becomes ill, and the other realizes how much they would miss them. And so forth.
The strength of Ray's feelings at any given time might be summed up with the impromptu marriage proposal to a nurse he had just met..

Great post. I am a very private person. Friends and family would only be able to name my ex-spouse and one significant other. RFG has consistently been described as private, so we should be open to the possibility that (if there were another woman) he told no one. It would also not have to be an old girlfriend.

 

[MissJ]

I was able to find someone, potentially, back to 1986.

Ok....share?

 

[MissJ]

Great post. I am a very private person. Friends and family would only be able to name my ex-spouse and one significant other. RFG has consistently been described as private, so we should be open to the possibility that (if there were another woman) he told no one. It would also not have to be an old girlfriend.

No it wouldn't..could be an internet meeting. Happens all the time. I'm private too.

 

[BigCat]

Respectfully snipped

We need to be careful not to limit what we THINK can happen by our own experiences- especially if our own experiences are limited, J.J.
I was very discreet and quiet about my dating years, and sometimes, I was casually dating 3-4 men at the same time, nothing serious in my mind about any of them. But they never met each othee or any of my other friends or my family. What I deemed casual, a few apparently wanted something much deeper ( maybe the absence grows fonder type of thing).

But in this case I wouldn't say J.J.'s perspective is limited. It's my impression that J.J. shares many demographic similarities with RFG. He can correct me if I'm wrong. I have a little interest in discussing RFG's pension, but I acknowledge that if J.J. has put that much thought into RFG's pension, then certainly RFG put as much thought in it, if not more.

Personally, I don't see the a man approaching retirement age running off with a woman, abandoning his identity and sacrificing his life savings. Unless, there was something hanging over his head. In which case, the woman is incidental to the primary reason for his disappearance.

JMO

 

[Trackergd]

Latching onto a comment upthread about RFG "would love to put one over on LE". Is there any indication that there was any adversarial relationship between various LE departments and RFG?

 

[BigCat]

Latching onto a comment upthread about RFG "would love to put one over on LE". Is there any indication that there was any adversarial relationship between various LE departments and RFG?

Good question.

In particular, I'm curious about the his relationship with the PSU police department.

From the outside, there doesn't seem to be many issues of town vs gown in Centre County. Town and gown appear thoroughly integrated. Obviously someone from the area would have a better vantage point than me.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Ok....share?

It is in the FBI file; they missed a redaction.