Hannah's Journey on 09/13

[KenoshaKid]

Going back and reading previous information, and saw this. Is Market & 4th at the entrance of the Mall, or did she need to backtrack to enter?

The mall is basically one street that is several blocks long. you can enter the mall at any cross street. You can only drive across it from 2 cross streets.

 

[Tugela]

Going back and reading previous information, and saw this. Is Market & 4th at the entrance of the Mall, or did she need to backtrack to enter?

Graham was known to be at the intersection of Market and 4th Street and traveled eastbound through the downtown mall between the 200 and 300 blocks.
Mooney describes the suspect as a black male wearing all white with dreadlocks. He was walking westbound but turned and travelled eastbound as Graham passed. He were then seen with his hands around Graham’s waist and were also seen entering Tempo restaurant on 5th street.
The two left within 15 minutes and the suspects car is on video leaving the area.
www.breezejmu.org/news/article_3c1d87ea-404a-11e4-b4df-001a4bcf6878.html

That report was filed on the 19th.

But on the 21st, in the press conference transcripts (read on post #1090 here) Longo makes no mention of that and is much more vague.

So I am inclined to think that news report is wrong.

 

[Fiddlehead]

The odd thing is that WG's supposed description of the man who came up to Hannah (per LE) matches the sketch of MH's killer (AA male, tall, heavy set, short hair with goatee) rather than JLM (with dreads.) Since WG saw whoever came up to Hannah, it seems strange that he would give a description of a bald/short haired guy rather than someone with mile-long dreads... It's all on the video, after all.

My guess is that LE may have done this deliberately to suggest a link bet. the two cases to JLM and play with his head a bit. LE assumed MH's perp likely would have altered his appearance after that crime due to the widely circulated sketch, and noticed strong similarities bet. the cases from the outset.

[/I]

Makes sense. Maybe LE wanted to put a different description out there so when they asked JLM to come in for questioning as a possible witness from that night, he wouldn't bolt because he'd be fooled into thinking they wanted a shorter, different suspect. Perhaps when he got to the station that Saturday he realized quickly what was going on and that's why he bolted.

 

[jbowman55]

No, JLM was not yet with HS when the guy who initially spotted her started following Hannah, hiding in doorways, etc. on the surveillance video (this man was referred to early on as "white guy" / WG or "white man" / WM.) WG claims that he was acting out of concern for HG b/c she appeared to be in distress. He says he backed off when someone -- now confirmed to be JLM -- came up to Hannah and put his arm around her as if they knew one another.

The odd thing is that WG's supposed description of the man who came up to Hannah (per LE) matches the sketch of MH's killer (AA male, tall, heavy set, short hair with goatee) rather than JLM (with dreads.) Since WG saw whoever came up to Hannah, it seems strange that he would give a description of a bald/short haired guy rather than someone with mile-long dreads... It's all on the video, after all.

My guess is that LE may have done this deliberately to suggest a link bet. the two cases to JLM and play with his head a bit. LE assumed MH's perp likely would have altered his appearance after that crime due to the widely circulated sketch, and noticed strong similarities bet. the cases from the outset.

Here's a link to the early descriptions of the possible "person of interest" supposedly given by WG (despite LE having video of dread-locked JLM):

http://www.insidenova.com/headlines...cle_8c08d858-3dad-11e4-9089-3f06c0723e32.html

Detectives have been studying surveillance video showing the 18-year-old West Potomac High School graduate walking around downtown Charlottesville late Friday and early Saturday. Police have talked to one man seen in a video following Graham, who said he was concerned about her and wanted to see if she needed help. He told detectives that another man, whom he described as black, came up and put his arm around her.

That man, despite heavy news coverage, has not come forward.

He is described as black, 5 feet 10 to 5 feet 11 inches tall and 250 to 285 pounds, with a close shaved head, goatee and a slight "beer belly." He was described as being in his late 20s to early 30s and wearing black jeans and a white t-shirt, police said in a news release.

As the search for Graham entered its fifth day, fears that something sinister happened to her intensified. Police said they are well aware of the similarities between Graham’s disappearance and the 2009 abduction and murder of 20-year-old Morgan Harrington, who vanished at a Metallica concert on the U.Va. campus.

Alright, it's one thing for WG to say that the guy who put his arm around HG had short hair and a goatee. It's another thing entirely to put black jeans and a white t-shirt on him.

Granted, his shirt looked white in the Downtown Mall surveillance videos, but it wasn't white and it wasn't' a t-shirt. It was a blue and white checked, short-sleeved sport shirt. AND he wasn't wearing black jeans, he was wearing light-colored shorts just below knee-length. I believe someone in another post said the shorts were khaki colored.

What is up with WG? The only details he got right were that the guy was black and that the guy put his arm around Hannah. Did these two tag-team her? Is WG visible in any footage on the Downtown Mall after HG and JM leave Tempo together, or even after JM put his arm around HG? Where did he go? Was he also intoxicated?

It's certainly understandable for an eyewitness statement to not be exactly right, but this sounds to me like it is SO wrong that it's deliberately that way. Either that or the guy was just blind drunk and didn't know what he saw.

Or maybe, as the earlier poster suggested, LE put out a fake description.

 

[MidgeC]

Alright, it's one thing for WG to say that the guy who put his arm around HG had short hair and a goatee. It's another thing entirely to put black jeans and a white t-shirt on him.

Granted, his shirt looked white in the Downtown Mall surveillance videos, but it wasn't white and it wasn't' a t-shirt. It was a blue and white checked, short-sleeved sport shirt. AND he wasn't wearing black jeans, he was wearing light-colored shorts just below knee-length. I believe someone in another post said the shorts were khaki colored.

What is up with WG? The only details he got right were that the guy was black and that the guy put his arm around Hannah. Did these two tag-team her? Is WG visible in any footage on the Downtown Mall after HG and JM leave Tempo together, or even after JM put his arm around HG? Where did he go? Was he also intoxicated?

It's certainly understandable for an eyewitness statement to not be exactly right, but this sounds to me like it is SO wrong that it's deliberately that way. Either that or the guy was just blind drunk.

BBM. It sure looks like that to me. Before the background info about JM came out, most people, upon learning that HG and JM were in Tempo, assumed that this was a case of a hook-up gone bad. But now it looks like there was malintent all along.

I am still very uncomfortable with WG's action at the Mall, as well as his apparently faulty memory.

 

[jamicat]

I agree she was set for walking, but that doesn't mean long distance walking to me. I remember also thinking that was a strange outfit to go out in, fancy top, casual shoes. (although the top made it easier to track her in the videos, IMO). She may also not have normally carried a purse at all. My daughter rarely does, and nearly always wears walkable type shoes, distance walking or no. She just likes to be comfortable. I do think that the reason she went so far is because she did have comfortable shoes. I don't think she would have covered nearly so much mileage if she had not worn them.

Does anyone know if it was normal for her to travel alone late like that?

From what I've read, it's not usual for UVA undergrads to be going over to the mall. Note that she did not run into anyone she knew there. I suspect she wanted to get into McGrady's to see if there were any familiar faces. The thought is that she was sticking to places around the Corner which is where the students tend to linger, but she got off track and went the opposite direction.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Alright, it's one thing for WG to say that the guy who put his arm around HG had short hair and a goatee. It's another thing entirely to put black jeans and a white t-shirt on him.

Granted, his shirt looked white in the Downtown Mall surveillance videos, but it wasn't white and it wasn't' a t-shirt. It was a blue and white checked, short-sleeved sport shirt. AND he wasn't wearing black jeans, he was wearing light-colored shorts just below knee-length. I believe someone in another post said the shorts were khaki colored.

What is up with WG? The only details he got right were that the guy was black and that the guy put his arm around Hannah. Did these two tag-team her? Is WG visible in any footage on the Downtown Mall after HG and JM leave Tempo together, or even after JM put his arm around HG? Where did he go? Was he also intoxicated?

It's certainly understandable for an eyewitness statement to not be exactly right, but this sounds to me like it is SO wrong that it's deliberately that way. Either that or the guy was just blind drunk and didn't know what he saw.

Or maybe, as the earlier poster suggested, LE put out a fake description.

Not sure what to think about WG, but nothing really good comes to mind in explanation of his behavior. As far as LE intentionally putting out a false description, I've said before I don't think that's right when there's a missing person involved. Now, with the knowledge that they may have done it because of a suspected connection with the MH case, I strongly disagree with making this kind of move in an attempt to solve a previous murder. Gee, there will be time for that--but when you're looking for clues as to where a missing girl might be, why would you purposely lie and risk losing potential witnesses??? Just hope they continue to keep focused on finding HG.

 

[Ghostwheel]

From what I've read, it's not usual for UVA undergrads to be going over to the mall. Note that she did not run into anyone she knew there. I suspect she wanted to get into McGrady's to see if there were any familiar faces. The thought is that she was sticking to places around the Corner which is where the students tend to linger, but she got off track and went the opposite direction.

Thank you. I suppose what I was trying to figure out is if she normally went out alone, or usually went with others. Was she running late and everyone else went on ahead of her, as an example. The reason I ask is that if she mentioned to anyone that she would be "along later" because she had something else to do first, and was overheard by someone who would then know she would be traveling alone, when normally she would not have been. I'm not sure where I am going with this just yet, but for some reason that seems important to me, whether her traveling alone was out of character or in character.

 

[Skigirl]

Thank you. I suppose what I was trying to figure out is if she normally went out alone, or usually went with others. Was she running late and everyone else went on ahead of her, as an example. The reason I ask is that if she mentioned to anyone that she would be "along later" because she had something else to do first, and was overheard by someone who would then know she would be traveling alone, when normally she would not have been. I'm not sure where I am going with this just yet, but for some reason that seems important to me, whether her traveling alone was out of character or in character.

I agree it would be interesting to know if she often went about her weekend nights by herself. If it was abnormal, what was her state of mind? Party hopping independently is not something I did as an undergraduate. I mean, occasionally if I was running late and going to a party where a bunch of my friends had already headed, or if I got bored and wanted to leave before they were done, I would walk to or from by myself (very unhappily, but I would do it if need be). But as a general rule, weekend nights were for cruising around with friends, not walking around alone. HG was alone a lot during prime party hours that night. It seems unusual and that is what makes me wonder if that was normal for her.

 

[jbowman55]

I have to add one more crazy-sounding thing here before I shut it down for tonight.

In another HG thread, and I think this is unconfirmed, someone referenced a JM sighting in Craigsville, VA on the Saturday morning that HG disappeared. So I went to Google Maps to see where Craigsville is.

So where it is, is up in the mountains, less than 10 miles from Augusta Springs.

Remember the report of the dead body last Saturday, the 27th? A 61-year-old man believed to have committed suicide...found in Augusta Springs.

Not the same day, don't even know the race of the suicide, but how odd is that?

And how odd is it that only one TV station made that db report, no name listed, no follow-up yet, sssshhhhh, be vewy vewy quiet...

Maybe LE should think about looking for HG around Craigsville and/or Augusta Springs. Or maybe I'm getting too wrapped up in this, and need to go get some sleep.

Nighty nite, then. :blushing:

 

[Snowball58]

New to Hannah's case and still catching up, but as I read about what took place that night, a few things jump out at me:

Why would HG be waiting outside and LJ goes in alone and orders 2 drinks (and no one saw him bring a drink out to her)? The owner of Tempo and the door ID checker are vehement that she never went inside, and that there happened to be another woman there in a crop top, but it wasn't HG (per a bar witness). Could it be that they have selective memory because HG was underage and they're trying to cover their butts because they let her in and served her?

I've read that she was heavily intoxicated. I watched her in the video taken just before she met LJ and she's walking fast and straight. She didn't appear intoxicated. But witnesses state that she could barely walk just a short time (and presumably 1 drink) later. I think he (or WG?) roofied her. I got roofied in Vegas a year ago, along with a friend, and one minute we were fine (slightly tipsy, but not at all what I'd consider impaired) and the next moment she couldn't walk and I was dragging her and thankfully a guy walking by helped us into a cab. Then, about 15 minutes later, the exact same thing happened to me. I went from being totally fine to flattened out on the ground. Luckily it hit us at different times (I'm heavier than my friend, maybe that's why) so we were able to help each other and, thankfully, were not victimized in any other way.

Regarding WG, that scene from Enough comes to mind. When JLo first meets her husband in the diner, and Noah Wylie acts like a weirdo and her future husband swoops in and "saves" her from him. Turns out it was a con that the two guys cooked up to meet women. Maybe WG and LJ did something similar - WG acted creepy and LJ swooped in, told HG that he saw a dude following her and would pretend to be her boyfriend to get rid of him (put his arm around her). HG is grateful that this stranger stepped in, then they walk a short distance and she feels obligated and grabs a drink with him, guard down. Maybe other times they switch roles. Or maybe HG was unlucky enough to have met two separate creepers that evening. Sigh. Man, do I miss the WS astros!

Anyway, just wanted to add my initial thoughts to the discussion.

 

[HartsX3]

One thing I was thinking... maybe HG was not really "lost" like her text says. Maybe she was buying time with her friend she was texting because she had another place she wanted to go/someone else she wanted to meet up with before going to where she said she was going originally.... maybe didn't want that friend to know about.

 

[Enni]

Alright, it's one thing for WG to say that the guy who put his arm around HG had short hair and a goatee. It's another thing entirely to put black jeans and a white t-shirt on him.

Granted, his shirt looked white in the Downtown Mall surveillance videos, but it wasn't white and it wasn't' a t-shirt. It was a blue and white checked, short-sleeved sport shirt. AND he wasn't wearing black jeans, he was wearing light-colored shorts just below knee-length. I believe someone in another post said the shorts were khaki colored.

What is up with WG? The only details he got right were that the guy was black and that the guy put his arm around Hannah. Did these two tag-team her? Is WG visible in any footage on the Downtown Mall after HG and JM leave Tempo together, or even after JM put his arm around HG? Where did he go? Was he also intoxicated?

It's certainly understandable for an eyewitness statement to not be exactly right, but this sounds to me like it is SO wrong that it's deliberately that way. Either that or the guy was just blind drunk and didn't know what he saw.

Or maybe, as the earlier poster suggested, LE put out a fake description.

Okay, this is from the Daily Mail (9/18/2014), so to be taken with a grain of salt, but this is why I think LE planted the description based on the prior sketch of suspect associated w/MH and 2005 rape to rattle JLM. (Longo admitted to a reporter during press conference Q&A that LE had already considered similarities w/MH case on 9/18.)

.................................

Police have not yet released surveillance footage of the person of interest, but did release footage of the witness who followed her.

<snip>

Film taken from two separate cameras shows the witness pursue the 18-year-old through the mall area shortly after 1am.

<snip>

Late last night investigators said the man in the video presented himself at Charlottesville Police Department (CPD).

He had also called the dedicated tip-line offering information about Hannah, officers have said.

The man, who has not been identified, told police he had followed Hannah as she appeared &#8216;physically distressed&#8217; and wanted to make sure she was safe. According to the police, he said he saw another man stop Hannah and put his arm around her.

The man, who he described as black, is not captured in any of the video footage - but police have released a description of him.

Police have issued a statement to say the black man shown walking with Hannah Graham in video footage released by police has been ruled out of their missing persons inquiry.

The man, seen in the video who has dreadlocks and is wearing three-quarter length trousers, has already been interviewed by detectives.

A spokesman for Charlottesville Police Department said: &#8216;We already know who the black man in the video is and he has spoken with officers. &#8216;He has been ruled out of the inquiry.

&#8216;He has nothing to do with Hannah&#8217;s disappearance.&#8217;

Police have however released a description of a different black man seen with Hannah that they are desperately trying to trace.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...wed-stumbled-deserted-mall.html#ixzz3F07nyFo6

 

[MzOpinion8d]

New to Hannah's case and still catching up, but as I read about what took place that night, a few things jump out at me:

Why would HG be waiting outside and LJ goes in alone and orders 2 drinks (and no one saw him bring a drink out to her)? The owner of Tempo and the door ID checker are vehement that she never went inside, and that there happened to be another woman there in a crop top, but it wasn't HG (per a bar witness). Could it be that they have selective memory because HG was underage and they're trying to cover their butts because they let her in and served her?

I've read that she was heavily intoxicated. I watched her in the video taken just before she met LJ and she's walking fast and straight. She didn't appear intoxicated. But witnesses state that she could barely walk just a short time (and presumably 1 drink) later. I think he (or WG?) roofied her. I got roofied in Vegas a year ago, along with a friend, and one minute we were fine (slightly tipsy, but not at all what I'd consider impaired) and the next moment she couldn't walk and I was dragging her and thankfully a guy walking by helped us into a cab. Then, about 15 minutes later, the exact same thing happened to me. I went from being totally fine to flattened out on the ground. Luckily it hit us at different times (I'm heavier than my friend, maybe that's why) so we were able to help each other and, thankfully, were not victimized in any other way.

Regarding WG, that scene from Enough comes to mind. When JLo first meets her husband in the diner, and Noah Wylie acts like a weirdo and her future husband swoops in and "saves" her from him. Turns out it was a con that the two guys cooked up to meet women. Maybe WG and LJ did something similar - WG acted creepy and LJ swooped in, told HG that he saw a dude following her and would pretend to be her boyfriend to get rid of him (put his arm around her). HG is grateful that this stranger stepped in, then they walk a short distance and she feels obligated and grabs a drink with him, guard down. Maybe other times they switch roles. Or maybe HG was unlucky enough to have met two separate creepers that evening. Sigh. Man, do I miss the WS astros!

Anyway, just wanted to add my initial thoughts to the discussion.

I think your ideas are reasonable ideas about what happened that night. I've said before that she does not appear severely impaired on the video. She walked at a brisk pace from the party all the way downtown which would have helped her metabolize at least some of the alcohol, plus we're looking at a time that's over an hour later if I am remembering right (left party at 11:50, on video at 1-ish). If it's true that she was stumbling away when they left, either he drugged her drink or she ingested something she already had with her.

I wish we knew why Hannah went there, and why she went alone! It's so unusual for girls that age to venture off alone when they're "going out". Most likely her phone records have info that will help explain.

I know it's possible the white guy is completely innocent but it's just so weird how he stops and waits for her to pass while JM is noticing her from across the mall at the very same time. I assume LE has other video of both WG and JM that will show their direction of travel that night also, which will hopefully help clear that up as well.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

I think your ideas are reasonable ideas about what happened that night. I've said before that she does not appear severely impaired on the video. She walked at a brisk pace from the party all the way downtown which would have helped her metabolize at least some of the alcohol, plus we're looking at a time that's over an hour later if I am remembering right (left party at 11:50, on video at 1-ish). If it's true that she was stumbling away when they left, either he drugged her drink or she ingested something she already had with her.

I wish we knew why Hannah went there, and why she went alone! It's so unusual for girls that age to venture off alone when they're "going out". Most likely her phone records have info that will help explain.

I know it's possible the white guy is completely innocent but it's just so weird how he stops and waits for her to pass while JM is noticing her from across the mall at the very same time. I assume LE has other video of both WG and JM that will show their direction of travel that night also, which will hopefully help clear that up as well.

There's just so much we don't know! I'm sure LE has a wealth of information from HG's party friends and from the texts. As far as whether or not she was impaired, LE says she was totally disoriented according to the texts. And on the video outside of Sal's, she seemed to be slouching pretty badly. Add that to what WG said (if you can believe it) about her being in physical distress. I don't know...I think she was pretty messed up from the time she left the second party. It's really hard to put the pieces together based on the information that's been released.

 

[shutterbug22]

This isn't what I was thinking "the mall" was like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-U83VJRFIQ

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Hmmm, when you look at the proximity of the parties on 14th St. to HG's apartment, it's almost impossible to imagine she got lost. IMO, the only way that happened was that she was utterly obliterated. According to Google maps, there are parts of 14th where you can see her apartments on the next street over...and there are clearly visible landmarks in the area. It just seems that HG went downtown intentionally. I think there's something to the fact that no statements from anyone other than those from Tempo have been made public--no media interviews of friends and McGrady's said LE asked them not to make any statements about what transpired there. Doesn't it seem like LE knows she was heading someplace--that she told at least one friend where she was going and that's why they didn't get concerned right away when she didn't come home on Saturday? It's not an original theory, but it really seems like HG may well have been attempting to hook up with someone. LE has to have tons of information from the time frame prior to Tempo's; wonder if some of it information also ties to earlier communications between HG and JM, or possibly someone else?

 

[sixecho]

Hmmm, when you look at the proximity of the parties on 14th St. to HG's apartment, it's almost impossible to imagine she got lost. IMO, the only way that happened was that she was utterly obliterated. According to Google maps, there are parts of 14th where you can see her apartments on the next street over...and there are clearly visible landmarks in the area. It just seems that HG went downtown intentionally. I think there's something to the fact that no statements from anyone other than those from Tempo have been made public--no media interviews of friends and McGrady's said LE asked them not to make any statements about what transpired there. Doesn't it seem like LE knows she was heading someplace--that she told at least one friend where she was going and that's why they didn't get concerned right away when she didn't come home on Saturday? It's not an original theory, but it really seems like HG may well have been attempting to hook up with someone. LE has to have tons of information from the time frame prior to Tempo's; wonder if some of it information also ties to earlier communications between HG and JM, or possibly someone else?

You bring up some good points. Truth is, LE does have tons of info that they are not making public. Why not? It must be for HG's well being or to put JM away for good. I also still believe HG was not 'lost'. LE must know where HG was headed. And so must the unknown party HG was headed to meet. Could that have been JM? It's possible. But then why the stop at McGrady's? Why then has McGrady's been silent. For whatever reason, LE thinks it's best that the public not be privy to this information. And she did not appear to be 'obliterated'. She was cognizant enough to run through the underpass across from the Shell gas station. To me, that speaks volumes and raises a couple questions in and of itself. She was aware enough of her surroundings yet not aware enough to get away from a strange man like JM. Sorry. I just don't buy it. Unless they know each other, a smart girl like HG would most likely not stick with a stranger like JM unless she either knew him/of him. Or needed serious help. I'd hope the later would be implied from her text messages that LE has access to. Also, was her phone working correctly? Well, we know it must have at some point because her text was sent out.

All signs point to JM. Either he killed HG before he reentered his car or after he entered his car(which means HG would have definitely been in his car). I don't think JM used drugs to subdue her. It hasn't been his MO and he seems to rely more on brute force. If that is so, at what point do things go wrong in the car? There had to be a point of no return where HG realized that JM wasn't taking her home (or to wherever HG was headed to in the first place). Now, I would say JM loses 'control' of the situation when he is driving. He can't hurt HG while driving and that means both must get out of the car for JM to regain control of the situation. Having tire trouble would give JM and HG a reason to get out of the car.... That would also explain the donut on the car. Just an thought...

I'm running out of ideas. I can't believe we still have not found Hannah. Also, if JM really did kill HG (most probable) then I think the sickest thing he has done, by far, is to cause the Graham family more pain by not telling LE where HG is. That is most unforgivable, IMO. This whole thing still boggles my mind on so many levels. If HG was in the car alive then at some point control had to have shifted back to JM. When? IMO, JM does not appear to be in as good as shape as he may have been in the past. Even intoxicated, I could imagine a tall HG running away from JM in great stride if she thought something was up while in his car. I read that she ran a lot around campus too so I believe she's in shape. But the fact that her phone died around 1:30 and that JM can't control his impulses leads me to believe he did what did rather quickly after leaving Tempo. That would mean she should be close. Yet, we haven't found HG. Mind boggling. Anyway, I'm ramblnig...

 

[Mountain Misst]

Here's some more on Hannah's movements from msm.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/25/uva-missing-student-suspect-court/16208411/

 

[Bryan9]

I've been puzzled by references to Hannah's last text message, in which she (or somebody) texted that she was lost in the area of 14th and Wertland Sts. This might not seem perplexing to people unfamiliar with Charlottesville, but it's very unlikely she was lost there... it's near her residence and an area that UVa students frequent. It's right around the corner from the, well, Corner. Just ran across a statement by LE that they're not buying the message, so I thought I'd share it here. Apologies if this has already come up somewhere.

Hannah Graham, 18, was last seen on surveillance video at a Charlottesville Irish pub around 12:46 a.m. Saturday, reports the station. About a half hour later, around 1:20 a.m., she texted a friend saying she was lost in the area of 14th and Wertland Streets.

Now, investigators say they don't believe she was in that area at all, reports the station.

"We don't know whether it was auto correct on her phone or she just typed it in wrong, we have no idea," Charlottesville Police Capt. Pleasants told the station.

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