What's eating you alive re this case?

[midwest mama]

:notgood:

Has always bothered me in this case. The easiest way to clear your family's name would be to find the real killer. This is someone ruthless enough to kill your daughter and is probably ruthless enough to kill other members of your family. It is imperative that person is found. John seemed more concerned with making sure his family members had lawyers than in creating a massive manhunt for this killer.

Yes. Let's not forget the resources he put into taking time to write his book about how he came through to the other side of his suffering over his losses of "his girls". He did this for a reason too...which I think was to try to alleviate some suffering he'll never be able to whitewash from himself due to his complicity in the crime.

 

[Darlene733510]

What really bothers me is that there is so much evidence locked away, and it will stay there unless someone really wants to get to the bottom of this. I've been hoping that Charley Brennan would do something, and maybe he will. I can't understand how those who know what really happened can go about their days as though they are innocent. I guess their conscience must be hidden away in some dark place, just as JB was left in that horrible WC.

 

[andreww]

What really bothers me is that there is so much evidence locked away, and it will stay there unless someone really wants to get to the bottom of this. I've been hoping that Charley Brennan would do something, and maybe he will. I can't understand how those who know what really happened can go about their days as though they are innocent. I guess their conscience must be hidden away in some dark place, just as JB was left in that horrible WC.

I agree. Maybe not so much about the police evidence, as the case is still open. But what happened with the GJ is just a farce. The Rs tried to make the public believe that the GJ had all but cleared them for many years, then we find that they actually recommended that the be indited. All those people that participated in that must have felt sick knowing what actually happened, and knowing they could do nothing as they were sworn to secrecy.


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[cynic]

Ha Ha! All this time I thought we’d have to hire some free climbin’ rock jock to scale the evidence warehouse (like a cat burglar), and now we see the simplest solution. Just ask for the “old stuff”.

LOL, it sure looks as if we’ve been overthinking it all these years.
As it stands, based on "Hunter’s Rules for the Release of Evidence," all evidence older than 12 months prior to the date of request shall be given to any member of the public under the blanket category of “old stuff.” Since there has likely been no addition to the case file in many, many years, we should be seeing about 60,000 pages coming our way, (including Smit’s PowerPoint,) among other things.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I agree. Maybe not so much about the police evidence, as the case is still open. But what happened with the GJ is just a farce. The Rs tried to make the public believe that the GJ had all but cleared them for many years, then we find that they actually recommended that the be indited. All those people that participated in that must have felt sick knowing what actually happened, and knowing they could do nothing as they were sworn to secrecy.


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However, If what the GJ decided may not have been known to them since AH did not bring charges. There was a case on Cold Justice where they developed evidence against a suspect but when they took it to the New DA and had him look into it, he had been indicted 20 years before but the DA never brought charges so it was sealed all that time and no one knew.

The R's were prepared to be indicted from what I understand, Considering it does not take much for a Jury to indict that makes sense and it was probably explained to them that way.

For me this case was lost in the beginning. What bothers me the most is how much more we would know if LA handled the house and people right and had made sure there was a proper search that day. I just feel like it would be so much clearer but for her bungling of that day.

 

[aussiesheila2]

What's eating me alive is that I can't work out how the garotte functioned

Has anyone EVER come close to reproducing that handle knot?

 

[DeeDee249]

What's eating me alive is that I can't work out how the garotte functioned

Has anyone EVER come close to reproducing that handle knot?

Well for one, it didn't function as a garrote. A real garrote is simply a long cord, rope, wire, etc that is held in a manner where the perp holds an end of it in each hand, and places it around the victim's throat and crosses the two ends one over the other so that the neck is squeezed between them. A true garrote does not have a knot. This cord on JB doesn't even function like a noose. It looks to be a simple slip-style knot. It isn't even known if the action of the knot pulled the cord that tight or if it was the action of winding the cord around her throat tightly.

 

[Darlene733510]

There was a piece of wire found near JB. I remember that in the RN it mentioned beheading of JB. The wire near her had a knot in it. Could someone be so vicious as to actually think of beheading this child?
Did someone use this wire on JB, and then couldn't continue, and then used the garrote? If that wire was used, and taken as evidence did it ever get checked for JB's DNA, or skin cells on the wire, or did AH just stash it away with all the other evidence that was never tested?

 

[DeDee]

What's eating me alive is that I can't work out how the garotte functioned

Has anyone EVER come close to reproducing that handle knot?

Cords, Knots, and Strangulation Devices Thread

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?117975-Cords-Knots-and-Strangulation-Devices/page6

Post #117 by otg in the Cords, Knots and Strangulation Devices Thread

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...d-Strangulation-Devices&p=5749401#post5749401

Post # 449 by Toltec quoted from PMPT

[Med. Ex. Meyer]He noted that he had found some scattered petechial hemorrhages on the surface of each lung and on the front surface of the heart. These suggested death by suffocation.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

What's eating me alive is that I can't work out how the garotte functioned

Has anyone EVER come close to reproducing that handle knot?

The whole garrote debate is odd to me. A garrote technically or not a text book does not matter. The idea is what mattered. Here they used the stick as leverage to tighten it. That makes it a garrote. Since I don't believe that people go around researching it if they are going to use one I think in this case the killer just wanted to make something that would make it easier to strangle her with leverage. Whether it is a technically perfect garrote or not does not really matter. It sadly did the job.

 

[DeDee]

Medical Examiner Dr. Meyer was friends with The Rs. They attended the same church in Boulder. One would think he would be very thorough in his autopsy report in order to help his friends find the killer of their daughter. While I won't list the numereous things that he did not do, such as not taking a body temperature, his findings are lacking in pertinent information. JMO If JonBenét was the precious daughter of his good friends, why would he be slack and vague in his autopsy report? Arguably, some may feel the AR was just as it should have been after the redacted statements were released.

Death by asphyxia due to strangulation
A normally healthy person would take as many as five minutes to die from strangulation. If JB was hit on the head first which slowed her heart rate and up to forty minutes later asphyxiated, perhaps the five minutes is cut in half or down to only two minutes. Try holding a cord around a knob and pulling on it for two minutes. That is a long time for bare hands. Wouldn't that cause abrasions on the users hand(s)? Even with gloves, the killer's hands had to hurt. JMO It could be the reason why the paintbrush handle was added as well as the apparent multiple placements of the cord encircling the neck. What troubles me is there is no "knot" impression on JonBenét's neck. Nor are there injuries to her tongue that one might expect such as swelling or biting the tongue in a futile effort to breathe. Nor are there typical injuries to her hyoid bone or trachea as one might expect in a strangulation. These facts lead me to believe the head injury occurred first.

If the massive head injury was "an accident" there is absolutely no reason not to call 911 immediately. The argument that sexual abuse would be found doesn't fit. Dead people do not talk. Even if JB lived after the head injury, isn't it doubtful that she would remember how she was injured? If she lived, would the drs perform a vaginal inspection? IOW, the Rs could say they did not have a clue how the SA occurred just as they maintained following her death.

In the movie, PMPT, LE ran the gamut on finding the missing roll of duct tape by removing appliances and disassembling fixtures. The only people who left the R home that morning were Fleet White and Burke Ramsey. Is it possible the missing evidence went on that trip out of the house with them?

JMO

 

[cynic]

Has anyone EVER come close to reproducing that handle knot?

See:
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?10093-Stansport-nylon-utility-cord

 

[DeeDee249]

Medical Examiner Dr. Meyer was friends with The Rs. They attended the same church in Boulder. One would think he would be very thorough in his autopsy report in order to help his friends find the killer of their daughter. While I won't list the numereous things that he did not do, such as not taking a body temperature, his findings are lacking in pertinent information. JMO If JonBenét was the precious daughter of his good friends, why would he be slack and vague in his autopsy report? Arguably, some may feel the AR was just as it should have been after the redacted statements were released.

Death by asphyxia due to strangulation
A normally healthy person would take as many as five minutes to die from strangulation. If JB was hit on the head first which slowed her heart rate and up to forty minutes later asphyxiated, perhaps the five minutes is cut in half or down to only two minutes. Try holding a cord around a knob and pulling on it for two minutes. That is a long time for bare hands. Wouldn't that cause abrasions on the users hand(s)? Even with gloves, the killer's hands had to hurt. JMO It could be the reason why the paintbrush handle was added as well as the apparent multiple placements of the cord encircling the neck. What troubles me is there is no "knot" impression on JonBenét's neck. Nor are there injuries to her tongue that one might expect such as swelling or biting the tongue in a futile effort to breathe. Nor are there typical injuries to her hyoid bone or trachea as one might expect in a strangulation. These facts lead me to believe the head injury occurred first.

If the massive head injury was "an accident" there is absolutely no reason not to call 911 immediately. The argument that sexual abuse would be found doesn't fit. Dead people do not talk. Even if JB lived after the head injury, isn't it doubtful that she would remember how she was injured? If she lived, would the drs perform a vaginal inspection? IOW, the Rs could say they did not have a clue how the SA occurred just as they maintained following her death.

In the movie, PMPT, LE ran the gamut on finding the missing roll of duct tape by removing appliances and disassembling fixtures. The only people who left the R home that morning were Fleet White and Burke Ramsey. Is it possible the missing evidence went on that trip out of the house with them?

JMO

I assume JR packed a bag for his son to take. Possibly the missing tape was in there, but I doubt it. I think it is much more likely that the tape (if there was a roll) was hidden in the pockets of the coats of the parents as they left the house (unsearched) that night. Or it could have been put in that infamous golf bag that JB made such a point of requesting Patsy's sister to bring him (in December in Boulder-not exactly golf season). I am astounded that LE never seemed to question his need for that golf bag at such a time. The house was going to be packed up and moved to Atlanta. Why could't that golf bag have been moved then along with the rest of the contents of the house?
I do not believe FW was involved in sneaking any evidence out of the house.
There has been discussion over the years that the pilot (and family friend) who was to fly the Rs to Charlevoix that morning actually came to the R house that morning and was allegedly given a bag of "evidence" that was said to contain the tape, cord, panties and other things. This has never been proven as fact, however.

 

[midwest mama]

IIRC it was rumored JR handed off something to MA when he came to the house. And yes, JR wanted his golf bag to take with them to Atlanta. And JR who wanted Burke taken to the Whites. And JR who handed off the very note pad the note was written on ti the cops being sure to let them know it was Patsy's. And JR who tried to get his plane readied for a trip to Atlanta because he had "important business" when actually he was due to be going to Michigan for another family Christmas celebration that day. And JR who "found" his daughter to have to carry her dead body upstairs holding her out like a mannequin away from his fresh clothing from that morning's grooming. All while PR sat in a suffering and wretching state, eventually reducing herself to a hysterical zealot needing tranquilizers.

 

[aussiesheila2]

See:
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?10093-Stansport-nylon-utility-cord

Thanks cynic. I have to say though, that I think there is a loop of cord on the RHS of the actual knot rather than an end of cord as you have on the RHS of your knot.

There was some discussion on this a while ago, I think people are pretty much divided on this point.

 

[Mama2JML]

IIRC it was rumored JR handed off something to MA when he came to the house. And yes, JR wanted his golf bag to take with them to Atlanta. And JR who wanted Burke taken to the Whites. And JR who handed off the very note pad the note was written on ti the cops being sure to let them know it was Patsy's. And JR who tried to get his plane readied for a trip to Atlanta because he had "important business" when actually he was due to be going to Michigan for another family Christmas celebration that day. And JR who "found" his daughter to have to carry her dead body upstairs holding her out like a mannequin away from his fresh clothing from that morning's grooming. All while PR sat in a suffering and wretching state, eventually reducing herself to a hysterical zealot needing tranquilizers.

This story was printed in the GLOBE, although I haven't found a link to the original article. See post #6 on this page:

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/alt.true-crime/zlv_rrR-Qm4

See 'FOOTPRINTS IN WHAT SNOW?' for Archuleta's response to the rumor:

http://www.acandyrose.com/02002000brillscontent.htm


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[elannia]

I assume JR packed a bag for his son to take. Possibly the missing tape was in there, but I doubt it. I think it is much more likely that the tape (if there was a roll) was hidden in the pockets of the coats of the parents as they left the house (unsearched) that night. Or it could have been put in that infamous golf bag that JB made such a point of requesting Patsy's sister to bring him (in December in Boulder-not exactly golf season). I am astounded that LE never seemed to question his need for that golf bag at such a time. The house was going to be packed up and moved to Atlanta. Why could't that golf bag have been moved then along with the rest of the contents of the house?
I do not believe FW was involved in sneaking any evidence out of the house.
There has been discussion over the years that the pilot (and family friend) who was to fly the Rs to Charlevoix that morning actually came to the R house that morning and was allegedly given a bag of "evidence" that was said to contain the tape, cord, panties and other things. This has never been proven as fact, however.

Wow... This is new to me. I read that he had tried calling MA to tell him JB was kidnapped but was unable to speak with him and he told someone else. Then I think he talked with him later. Be nice if we knew if MA was actually there that morning and if the box story is true.

 

[andreww]

Wow... This is new to me. I read that he had tried calling MA to tell him JB was kidnapped but was unable to speak with him and he told someone else. Then I think he talked with him later. Be nice if we knew if MA was actually there that morning and if the box story is true.

The Globe certainly wasn't a very reliable tabloid back in those days. Probably still isn't today.

 

[Nick No Nora]

That a crime so haphazard and amateurish managed to be so unsolvable.

 

[andreww]

I sometimes wonder why it appears that the "higher ups" in this case simply didn't want the Ramsey's charged. When their own PD came to the conclusion that the Rs were responsible, they were replaced with people more open to the intruder theory. When the GJ recommended indictments, it was ignored. Why??

You would think most people are good at heart, so why protect the Rs when it seems evident that they were involved in a horrible crime against an innocent little girl? There has to be a reason for protection.

Sometimes I wonder about the Ransom note, specifically the "SBTC Victory!" portion. As we know Access Graphics had government defence projects. Could these references have been code names for some extremely top secret government project? Could John have been sending a message to some ultra powerful people that if he goes down, he'll make their secret project public?

Maybe not, but that SBTC has to mean something, and I've never seen a plausible suggestion for what that is.


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