IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33

[Chuz Life]

Thanks for a very detailed map. Just a small correction. It was JR who says he watched her from the balcony not MB. I have often wondered if the bar manager saw them at point #14-#15 instead of at #10 on your map and then went down that alley. Thanks again for your work.

According to the article I consulted when I was making the map, the Bar Tender made mention of the Clock she could see there on the corner of 10th & College.

My big questions about the Bar Tender (seeing as the BPD disputes her testimony) is this. "What time did she get off work? Where did she work and how far from 10th and College was it? From that information and the method she used to get there (walking or driving) we can know for certain - what time she was at that location to see what she claims she saw.

 

[Chuz Life]

Very well done map! I didn't realize that Smallwood has a courtyard either. Two, hopefully constructive, criticisms. I agree that the bar manager witness saw MM and Lauren at point #10, but I'm not aware that anyone has quoted her as saying that she saw them enter the alley. Gatto reported that the bar manager witness saw MM and Lauren "at the corner of 10th St. and College Ave. in downtown Bloomington. At one point the man slung Lauren over his shoulder." I don't believe she saw them go anywhere.

http://tonygatto.com/2011/06/16/new...n-spierer-mystery-encounter-with-unknown-man/

Your article says that BPD created a sketch from the Bar Tender's descriptions. I wonder if we can find a copy of that anywhere.

Shawn Cohen, in his very useful Youtube timeline, says that ZC lived in "an apartment building at 10th & College". This suggests to me that he may not be referring to T&C (what you've labeled College Apts.), but that he might be referring to T&CV (what you've labeled Village Apartments). If fact, for reasons discussed earlier in the thread, I believe that ZC did in fact live at T&CV, not T&C.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sQVq0JNFFI

The College Village apts. are not located on 10th & College though. They are located on Morton street as shown on the map.

Though the map needn't specify this, I'd like to also point out that the camera in the north-east corner of T&C doesn't point at the sidewalk, but rather points along the storefronts along the façade. Walking past the façade, I think it's clear that, had Lauren walked past that camera, on her way to point #10, for example, she would not have been recorded.

I agree that the cameras could easily have missed Lauren and others walking by.

 

[akh]

"What time did she get off work? Where did she work and how far from 10th and College was it? From that information and the method she used to get there (walking or driving) we can know for certain - what time she was at that location to see what she claims she saw.

You also need the question: What did she do/where all did she go after work and was the sighting before or after what parts of this activity?

 

[Ixchel13]

If it's not "up for debate" whether or not she was intoxicated, why put it in quotation marks? This seems to be more of a loaded issue for you than it is for me. I only bring it up in referring to the facts of the case, or in reference to the idea (expressed by some) that, if in fact Lauren was intoxicated, everyone she crossed paths with on the night of her disappearance is in some way morally liable for not personally walking her home, fending off any advances from drunken frat boys or other dishonorable types along the way, and making sure she got safely tucked into bed. The only guilty parties here are those who assaulted, killed, and/or absconded with Lauren, assuming one or the other of those scenarios did indeed take place.

I have absolutely no opinion as to MB's character, so I'm not sure where the "studious little angel" snark comes from.

BBM in order: drunk is a meaner, cruder way of putting it. You seem to prefer it.:thinking:

Lauren was injured, intoxicated and barefoot w/o her phone or keys. She didn't need someone to "tuck her into bed", as you have also posted several times, no, she needed help to get home and/or medical attention immediately and didn't receive it and now she is gone because of that, whether or not she left and was abducted by someone strange. and yes I'm going to go out on a very short limb to say IMO there's a lot of guilt to be shared there by at least the 3 5N POIs.:jail:

BBM genuinely sorry if you took the MB remark personally. IMO, if there's anything amiss in the POIs storyline, by all rational thinking, he is involved.:jail:

 

[Bali]

I think the most likely scenario is that she died of an overdose (or some combination of factors) that night and the men hid her body. When you look at the combination of drugs she was reported to have ingested that night, the alcohol on top of that, the heart condition, the substantial head injuries she sustained, and the degree to which she was intoxicated, I think it's extremely unlikely that she had sobered up enough to walk out of that apartment when they reported she did. She couldn't even walk and had to be carried when she entered. An hour, hour and a half later she can walk on her own? I'm just not seeing it.

The drugs on their own were dangerous, the heart condition really puts it into the danger zone, but the head injuries really worry me. You really don't want to go without having those treated.

Now, personally, if that's the case, I feel sorry for these guys. The laws regarding drugs aren't what they should be and don't allow for someone to call 911 without getting into serious trouble yourself and they got scared. But that's just me.

 

[Ixchel13]

I think the most likely scenario is that she died of an overdose (or some combination of factors) that night and the men hid her body. When you look at the combination of drugs she was reported to have ingested that night, the alcohol on top of that, the heart condition, the substantial head injuries she sustained, and the degree to which she was intoxicated, I think it's extremely unlikely that she had sobered up enough to walk out of that apartment when they reported she did. She couldn't even walk and had to be carried when she entered. An hour, hour and a half later she can walk on her own? I'm just not seeing it.

The drugs on their own were dangerous, the heart condition really puts it into the danger zone, but the head injuries really worry me. You really don't want to go without having those treated.

Now, personally, if that's the case, I feel sorry for these guys. The laws regarding drugs aren't what they should be and don't allow for someone to call 911 without getting into serious trouble yourself and they got scared. But that's just me.

BBM using those four words, then why not an anonymous tip to the family? hard to feel sorry for someone who wouldn't do that. but I definitely know what you mean.

 

[Ixchel13]

Without a doubt there are a few people testifying to Lauren's condition, and her heart condition. IMO, she died from the blow to her head when she smacked it. And oddly, there is an eyewitness to this event, but she is discredited because she said it wasn't the right guy nor the right time that this event happened according to the guy and the place they had on tape.

What the eyewitness saw is not on tape, but they have another tape of Lauren with another guy, earlier than the eyewitness saw.

So, it's the eyewitness word against whomever she saw. LE has stated
that the mystery man is known to them. They have never said the mystery man is definitely CR.

What if they've already questioned the mystery man, and his friends have alibied him? and even if one of his friends said they saw him out, someone else could have discredited them. So it ends up the eyewitness' word against the mystery man's.

It's really not that hard to believe that Lauren might have been at 10th and College twice, she stopped and tried to get in ZC's apt on her way to 5N. This is when she was seen on tape.

The eyewitness account of her smacking her head does not match what is described on tape. the witness describes her as non responsive, PIs describe that during their journey up the alley, Lauren was very much alive.

I'm wondering if this witness could be also considered a POI? It could be that she was at a party there at 10th and College. It is said that she didn't come forward until someone told her Lauren was missing.

 

[CoolJ]

Are there still posts here in one of these threads by someone portraying themselves to be JR? I think it was from around the time the lawsuit was first being reported and the same time we had comments from JWs family and CR saying he didn't say he doesn't remember anything. If I recall all of those things happened within the same few days.

ETA: also how long before or after this chain of events did we hear from ZC?
I would like to see a timeline of statements from POI's, parents, friends, witnesses etc. I really think it could shed some light as to who said what and when and how stories have evolved over time.

 

[Vidocq]

...

The College Village apts. are not located on 10th & College though. They are located on Morton street as shown on the map.

...

Back in May, there was some debate, about whether ZC lived in T&C, or T&CV (as I call them), on this thread. Ixchel13, as I recall, theorized that she lived in T&CV, whereas I believe I favored her living in T&C. So I called Shawn Cohen, the reporter in the video, and asked him for clarification. Here's my original post about my interview with him:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ngton-03-June-2011-33&p=10633729#post10633729

Based on that interview, I've been under the impression that ZC, in fact, lived in T&CV.

 

[Chuz Life]

Back in May, there was some debate, about whether ZC lived in T&C, or T&CV (as I call them), on this thread. Ixchel13, as I recall, theorized that she lived in T&CV, whereas I believe I favored her living in T&C. So I called Shawn Cohen, the reporter in the video, and asked him for clarification. Here's my original post about my interview with him:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ngton-03-June-2011-33&p=10633729#post10633729

Based on that interview, I've been under the impression that ZC, in fact, lived in T&CV.

That is all very interesting and even compelling, Vidocq - and I commend you on your diligence and your attention to detail. That said, I hope that you will consider this (public) information that I searched for and found to confirm the location on my map. It shows that ZC had a previous address (apartment) @ 10th and College.

http://www.peekyou.com/zoe_camp/31129032

It says; "Zoe S Camp (856) 825-****
****** N College St, Apt 4xxx, Bloomington, IN"

 

[Vidocq]

That is all very interesting and even compelling, Vidocq - and I commend you on your diligence and your attention to detail. That said, I hope that you will consider this (public) information that I searched for and found to confirm the location on my map. It shows that ZC had a previous address (apartment) @ 10th and College.

http://www.peekyou.com/zoe_camp/31129032

It says; "Zoe S Camp (856) 825-****
****** N College St, Apt 4xxx, Bloomington, IN"

I've actually come across that same information, in my investigation: (I hope I'm allowed to say this, since she doesn't live there anymore: ) the address under the asterisks reads "455 N. College St. Apt. 4xxx", an apartment at Smallwood! I don't know when she lived at Smallwood, but that can't be the address Shawn Cohen is referring to.

 

[Chuz Life]

I've actually come across that same information, in my investigation: (I hope I'm allowed to say this, since she doesn't live there anymore: ) the address under the asterisks reads "455 N. College St. Apt. 4xxx", an apartment at Smallwood! I don't know when she lived at Smallwood, but that can't be the address Shawn Cohen is referring to.

Surely between all of us, we can establish / confirm where she was actually living at the time of Lauren's disappearance. May I ask where the link is that puts ZC's apt. at SmallWood?

 

[curioser]

Surely between all of us, we can establish / confirm where she was actually living at the time of Lauren's disappearance. May I ask where the link is that puts ZC's apt. at SmallWood?

You'd have to go back to the information available at the time. Searching now may turn up any addresses she lived at during her time in school. (I know I lived at 4 different places within a small radius in college.) Plus, this was summer- she may have been subletting or staying with a friend and not associated with any "official" address or utility bills.

 

[Chuz Life]

You'd have to go back to the information available at the time. Searching now may turn up any addresses she lived at during her time in school. (I know I lived at 4 different places within a small radius in college.) Plus, this was summer- she may have been subletting or staying with a friend and not associated with any "official" address or utility bills.

I understand that. . . but it may be a crucial bit of information so it is something we need to try to confirm if we can. Hopefully it won't take very long.

 

[Dixie811]

Are there still posts here in one of these threads by someone portraying themselves to be JR? I think it was from around the time the lawsuit was first being reported and the same time we had comments from JWs family and CR saying he didn't say he doesn't remember anything. If I recall all of those things happened within the same few days.

ETA: also how long before or after this chain of events did we hear from ZC?
I would like to see a timeline of statements from POI's, parents, friends, witnesses etc. I really think it could shed some light as to who said what and when and how stories have evolved over time.

BBM: I believe those were deleted by moderators because the poster did not verify his or her identity per TOS.

 

[Ros]

According to the article I consulted when I was making the map, the Bar Tender made mention of the Clock she could see there on the corner of 10th & College.

My big questions about the Bar Tender (seeing as the BPD disputes her testimony) is this. "What time did she get off work? Where did she work and how far from 10th and College was it? From that information and the method she used to get there (walking or driving) we can know for certain - what time she was at that location to see what she claims she saw.

As I recall, the witness was a bar manager rather than a bar tender. Not sure that makes any difference, though.

 

[Chuz Life]

As I recall, the witness was a bar manager rather than a bar tender. Not sure that makes any difference, though.

Thank you. In many cases, that might be one and the same but I get your point.

 

[Bali]

BBM: I believe those were deleted by moderators because the poster did not verify his or her identity per TOS.

Sorry, stupid question, but what does BBM mean?

 

[Bali]

BBM using those four words, then why not an anonymous tip to the family? hard to feel sorry for someone who wouldn't do that. but I definitely know what you mean.

What kind of anonymous tip? I would imagine they're afraid of going to jail.

 

[TedMac]

Sorry, stupid question, but what does BBM mean?

BBM=Bolded By Me