NY - Officer Daniel Pantaleo used deadly chokehold on Eric Garner, Staten Island, July 2014

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I have very very serious concerns about this case.

I personally don't think anyone should be arrested for selling loose cigs, so I don't even really see any need for any arrest. If the cigs he was selling were stolen, that would be one thing, but just the act of selling them?

And then he wasn't actively attacking police or fleeing; he was merely standing there not being particularly cooperative. He certainly didn't seem to present any immediate threat to anyone, or any immediate flight risk. It would seem that the cops on scene had time to either continue to talk with him in an attempt to de-escalate rather than escalate, and barring that, they had time to wait for additional officers -- then they could surround him and cuff him if need be, without taking him down.

Then the use of the chokehold -- against department policy.

Then the cries that he couldn't breathe.

Very difficult to believe there will be no indictment in this case.

With all that said, I hate it that the protesters terrorized the singing children. The children weren't responsible for this.
 
epiphany said:
<snip> The medical examiner ruled Garner's death a homicide caused in part by the chokehold. The father of three's health issues, including obesity, were listed as contributing factors in the autopsy report.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...en-Island-Chokehold-Death-NYPD-284595921.html


<snip> "The patient did have an enlarged heart, a very large heart, but good coronary arteries. And did have evidence, under the microscope, of asthma," Baden said. "Compression of the neck that prevents breathing for example trumps everything else as a cause of death."

http://manhattan.ny1.com/content/ne...-s-final-autopsy-report/#sthash.R5GfR2Ri.dpuf
Click to expand...

Excuse my lack of familiarity with every aspect. I've just in the last few minutes tried to get up to speed on facts.

Sounds as though all that was left was for the GJ to establish if any intent was involved and that a criminal act was committed, then true bill it for indictment.

I haven't seen any GJ viewed evidence or transcripts so I have no speculation on their no billing.
 
Court records show that within the past two years, three men sued Daniel Pantaleo &#8212; the officer seen wrapping his arm around Garner's neck &#8212; over allegedly unlawful, racially motivated arrests.


In the first lawsuit, settled by the city in January, two black men accused Pantaleo and other officers of arresting them without cause and subjecting them to a "humiliating and unlawful strip search" on the street in which they were ordered to "pull their pants and underwear down, squat and cough." The men said they were held overnight on charges that were ultimately dismissed.

Pantaleo purportedly &#8220;tapped&#8221; each man&#8217;s testicles during the search, which he claimed was a bid to discover any contraband, the Daily News reported. The suit was settled last January.



In a second lawsuit, a man accused Pantaleo and other officers of misrepresenting facts in a police report and other documents to substantiate charges that also were dismissed.In a second lawsuit, a man named Rylawn Walker accused a group of NYPD officers that included Pantaleo of arresting him despite the fact that he was &#8220;committing no crime at the time and was not acting in a suspicious manner&#8221; and of including misleading data on a police report to justify the arrest, the Staten Island Advance reported. Charges against the man were ultimately dismissed.

Rylawn Walker, alleges that Pantaleo arrested him last February for marijuana-related charges, even though he was "committing no crime at that time and was not acting in a suspicious manner."


A Staten Island grand jury considered several possible criminal charges against Pantaleo, including criminally negligent homicide and manslaughter.

Pantaleo was an eight-year NYPD veteran

http://www.ibtimes.com/who-daniel-p...ed-eric-garner-was-accused-misconduct-1733094

costing taxpayers $30,000 in settlement money

Pantaleo falsely claimed that he saw crack and heroin in the backseat of the car&#8212;everyone in the vehicle was arrested, but the charges were subsequently dismissed.
http://gothamist.com/2014/07/21/cop_who_put_eric_garner_in_chokehol.php


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/19/nypd-daniel-pantaleo-chok_n_5602742.html
 
If this was the son of all the grand jurist; Iam sure it would have been a different outcome. Shame on them.
 
Archangel7 said:
First, I do understand the philosophy of "broken window policing." Please Google if you don't understand.

If I was somehow going to get excited over cigarettes..........

I would have said settle down(he was beginning to show agitation and heading towards pre assaultive behavior) this is a casual conversation about a small violation we are having and I am not gonna stand here and have you disrespect me and what I represent nor am I going to disrespect you. So what we going to do...... we going to talk or roll around on the ground? 99% will see the logic and comply. The ones that don't you have to backup what you just said.

So, here I am back again and word is you're selling cigs again, so this is what I'm going to do to make sure you and I don't mistake each others moves and intentions. I am going to frisk you for mine and your safety then we are going to get to the bottom of this loosies thing ok?

Bottom line is if he is telling the truth about the fight breakup my conversations over. If he's selling or breaking the law he goes with me. I always try to tell them it can be a simple taxi ride to go and clear this up or an ambulance ride, but either way you have to go with me and clear this up.

(I know little about the case. Did they have a warrant? did they see him selling? I don't know)

Anyway I can't get real excited over cigarettes, and could have easily made him leave and say next time is jail time or what ever their law warrants. It just seems a little petty to me personally.
Click to expand...

This guy was a frequent flier--31 arrests. And, from the conversation, it seemed like there had been previous contact between Eric and the cop
 
Archangel7 said:
First, I do understand the philosophy of "broken window policing." Please Google if you don't understand.

If I was somehow going to get excited over cigarettes..........

I would have said settle down(he was beginning to show agitation and heading towards pre assaultive behavior) this is a casual conversation about a small violation we are having and I am not gonna stand here and have you disrespect me and what I represent nor am I going to disrespect you. So what we going to do...... we going to talk or roll around on the ground? 99% will see the logic and comply. The ones that don't you have to backup what you just said.

So, here I am back again and word is you're selling cigs again, so this is what I'm going to do to make sure you and I don't mistake each others moves and intentions. I am going to frisk you for mine and your safety then we are going to get to the bottom of this loosies thing ok?

Bottom line is if he is telling the truth about the fight breakup my conversations over. If he's selling or breaking the law he goes with me. I always try to tell them it can be a simple taxi ride to go and clear this up or an ambulance ride, but either way you have to go with me and clear this up.

(I know little about the case. Did they have a warrant? did they see him selling? I don't know)

Anyway I can't get real excited over cigarettes, and could have easily made him leave and say next time is jail time or what ever their law warrants. It just seems a little petty to me personally.
Click to expand...

I agree that selling cigs should not be a big deal. But I heard something from my friend in NYC that puts a twist in this for the new Mayor. Apparently, he pressured the NYPD to do the special task force against 'tax free' cigs being sold because the Mayor thinks it takes away a big tax bonus from the city. So he was the one wanting them to go after these 'illegal' cig salesmen, and now he is the one having to speak about it to his voter base as well.

Also, the victim had been arrested over 30 times, and made his living selling the tax free cigs. So he should have known how to comply and I am surprised he didn't just stand down. They should not have used the choke hold though and they didn't really need so many people sitting on him either. But I don't think it was murder.
 
sonjay said:
I have very very serious concerns about this case.

I personally don't think anyone should be arrested for selling loose cigs, so I don't even really see any need for any arrest. If the cigs he was selling were stolen, that would be one thing, but just the act of selling them?

And then he wasn't actively attacking police or fleeing; he was merely standing there not being particularly cooperative. He certainly didn't seem to present any immediate threat to anyone, or any immediate flight risk. It would seem that the cops on scene had time to either continue to talk with him in an attempt to de-escalate rather than escalate, and barring that, they had time to wait for additional officers -- then they could surround him and cuff him if need be, without taking him down.

Then the use of the chokehold -- against department policy.

Then the cries that he couldn't breathe.

Very difficult to believe there will be no indictment in this case.

With all that said, I hate it that the protesters terrorized the singing children. The children weren't responsible for this.
Click to expand...

Respectfully BBM

Re the selling of "loosies" in NYC:

<snip> STATEN ISLAND, N.Y. -- Police Commissioner Bill Bratton said in a radio interview Tuesday that Tompkinsville was one of the city neighborhoods targeted for quality of life enforcement.

<snip> Bratton [NYC Police Commissioner] added that the bodegas and store owners in Tompkinsville were consistently complaining about the illegal sales because they were losing money due to the illegal transactions. Cigarette sales were the big moneymakers for these local establishments, the police commissioner added.

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/08/bratton_said_police_were_respo.html
 
epiphany said:
Sometimes have to do what you have to do, as long as no violence. May be acceptable in Philly IMO.

Philly stats re LE and minority deaths and/or excessive force, complaints against LE, might be very different from NYC stats. I'm not sure not justifiable in city of Philly.
Click to expand...


Adult protesters need to leave the kids out of this. They are totally innocent/uninvolved in this. Shame on these so called adults IMO
 
CARIIS said:
Court records show that within the past two years, three men sued Daniel Pantaleo &#8212; the officer seen wrapping his arm around Garner's neck &#8212; over allegedly unlawful, racially motivated arrests.


In the first lawsuit, settled by the city in January, two black men accused Pantaleo and other officers of arresting them without cause and subjecting them to a "humiliating and unlawful strip search" on the street in which they were ordered to "pull their pants and underwear down, squat and cough." The men said they were held overnight on charges that were ultimately dismissed.

Pantaleo purportedly &#8220;tapped&#8221; each man&#8217;s testicles during the search, which he claimed was a bid to discover any contraband, the Daily News reported. The suit was settled last January.



In a second lawsuit, a man accused Pantaleo and other officers of misrepresenting facts in a police report and other documents to substantiate charges that also were dismissed.In a second lawsuit, a man named Rylawn Walker accused a group of NYPD officers that included Pantaleo of arresting him despite the fact that he was &#8220;committing no crime at the time and was not acting in a suspicious manner&#8221; and of including misleading data on a police report to justify the arrest, the Staten Island Advance reported. Charges against the man were ultimately dismissed.

Rylawn Walker, alleges that Pantaleo arrested him last February for marijuana-related charges, even though he was "committing no crime at that time and was not acting in a suspicious manner."


A Staten Island grand jury considered several possible criminal charges against Pantaleo, including criminally negligent homicide and manslaughter.

Pantaleo was an eight-year NYPD veteran

http://www.ibtimes.com/who-daniel-p...ed-eric-garner-was-accused-misconduct-1733094

costing taxpayers $30,000 in settlement money

Pantaleo falsely claimed that he saw crack and heroin in the backseat of the car&#8212;everyone in the vehicle was arrested, but the charges were subsequently dismissed.
http://gothamist.com/2014/07/21/cop_who_put_eric_garner_in_chokehol.php


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/19/nypd-daniel-pantaleo-chok_n_5602742.html
Click to expand...


^^^^^ Wow...that is just ....:notgood::notgood:
 
cady said:
GJ certainly must have seen the video, wonder what they were thinking? JMO
Click to expand...

Probably thinking only what the prosecutors told them to think.
 
The entire confrontation leading to Michael Brown's death was a result of him robbing a store owner, (along with accosting the owner), for a box of Swisher Sweets. I don't remember ever reading which sized box of Swishers were stolen.

A box of five would have cost MB around $4.50. A box of 60 would have cost MB around $33.00. It was most likely a box of five that he stole, since boxes of 60 are generally only sold at designated tobacco shops or online.

And then the Garner case where he was ILLEGALLY selling un-taxed loose cigarettes on a street corner. It's too damned sad when people feel the need to commit crimes over TOBACCO, of all things.

Garner had previous arrests for the same thing. He was taking business away from local bodegas and other local businesses who were LEGALLY selling cigs, with the proper taxes paid on them.

It's so damned ironic that both of these cases are directly related to something as (seemingly) trivial as:

1. A "need" to obtain a pack of cigars without paying for them.
2. A "need" to illegally sell un-taxed cigarettes

I don't know enough about the Garner case (even after trying to catch up since the GJ decision today), but will still say that it's ludicrous that people are determined to either steal, or illegally sell tobacco.

Such seemingly trivial crap like this, isn't that trivial when cops come out to hold the people accountable. On the surface it sounds "trivial", but there are still laws broken, and cops are paid to respond when laws are broken.

It just doesn't seem like any sane person would risk running afoul of LE over tobacco, of all things. And I'm (ashamed to admit, but it's true) a die-hard smoker. I've tried saving money by buying some fancy mechanical roll your own machine, loose tobacco, and cigarette tubes. WAY too much trouble for me. I smoked them faster than I could roll them. :blushing:

I just went back to paying my full taxes on packaged cigs. Never stole to support my nasty habit, never bought any illegal tobacco products.

I'll never understand why some people think it's okay to steal a damned thing. Whether it's outfight theft (MB) or indirect theft (Garner), but taking chances over something as insignificant as TOBACCO?

Just get a real job. If you just have to have those cigars or cigarettes, then get a job and buy them. If you need a real job then get one instead of selling illegal products on a street corner.

It's ludicrous that some people think the answer is acting illegally and then when cops respond and things go downhill? It's NEVER their fault. It's always some bad cop that done them wrong.
 
CoolJ said:
Yes but cady, he may have looked like a "demon" with the strength of hulk hogan
Click to expand...

I know were you're attempting to go .........so here's the law....Tennessee v Garner, I believe.

An officer’s evil intentions will not make a Fourth Amendment violation out of an
objectively reasonable use of force; nor will an officer’s good intentions make an
objectively unreasonable use of force constitutional.”
 
I remember when this happened. I was appalled. I haven't had time to read the articles yet, but as of now, unless there's something the GJ heard that we don't know, I have problems with how this was handled by police. From comments in this thread and elsewhere, this cop has a "history". I hope we get some explanation of the GJ decision.

<modsnip>
 
DeeDeah said:
The entire confrontation leading to Michael Brown's death was a result of him robbing a store owner, (along with accosting the owner), for a box of Swisher Sweets. I don't remember ever reading which sized box of Swishers were stolen.

A box of five would have cost MB around $4.50. A box of 60 would have cost MB around $33.00. It was most likely a box of five that he stole, since boxes of 60 are generally only sold at designated tobacco shops or online.

And then the Garner case where he was ILLEGALLY selling un-taxed loose cigarettes on a street corner. It's too damned sad when people feel the need to commit crimes over TOBACCO, of all things.

Garner had previous arrests for the same thing. He was taking business away from local bodegas and other local businesses who were LEGALLY selling cigs, with the proper taxes paid on them.

It's so damned ironic that both of these cases are directly related to something as (seemingly) trivial as:

1. A "need" to obtain a pack of cigars without paying for them.
2. A "need" to illegally sell un-taxed cigarettes

I don't know enough about the Garner case (even after trying to catch up since the GJ decision today), but will still say that it's ludicrous that people are determined to either steal, or illegally sell tobacco.

Such seemingly trivial crap like this, isn't that trivial when cops come out to hold the people accountable. On the surface it sounds "trivial", but there are still laws broken, and cops are paid to respond when laws are broken.

It just doesn't seem like any sane person would risk running afoul of LE over tobacco, of all things. And I'm (ashamed to admit, but it's true) a die-hard smoker. I've tried saving money by buying some fancy mechanical roll your own machine, loose tobacco, and cigarette tubes. WAY too much trouble for me. I smoked them faster than I could roll them. :blushing:

I just went back to paying my full taxes on packaged cigs. Never stole to support my nasty habit, never bought any illegal tobacco products.

I'll never understand why some people think it's okay to steal a damned thing. Whether it's outfight theft (MB) or indirect theft (Garner), but taking chances over something as insignificant as TOBACCO?

Just get a real job. If you just have to have those cigars or cigarettes, then get a job and buy them. If you need a real job then get one instead of selling illegal products on a street corner.

It's ludicrous that some people think the answer is acting illegally and then when cops respond and things go downhill? It's NEVER their fault. It's always some bad cop that done them wrong.
Click to expand...

Do you know for a fact that Eric Garner didn't legally buy the cigarettes he was selling? If the cigarettes were bought legally in the first place then the tax was already paid and local businesses were supported. We can't call what Garner did "indirect theft" without evidence he was illegally obtaining the cigarettes IMO.
 
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