NY - Officer Daniel Pantaleo used deadly chokehold on Eric Garner, Staten Island, July 2014

[leah]

When did they place him under arrest? How was it worded? I am not even sure if they actually did place him under arrest.

Just watched it again and I still do not consider what he was doing as resisting arrest. He is pleading to have a conversation and talk about it. There is no doubt in my mind he would have done what they said. He just wanted to talk about WHY. What's the big deal. Talk to him for a bit in a respectful way and things would have been fine.

I would love to see what was all going on before the videos started. For me that is a big missing piece, it looked like the cops were starting to get closer to him, and without knowing exactly what was going on. Maybe there was surveillance tape that the jury got to see? Would I get in trouble if I said it kind of looked like a set up? Because it kind of did to me, but like everyone else we don't have all the facts.

 

[Elley Mae]

The EMT, talked to EG like he was aware of what was going on. She must have been just doing that for show, doesn't take somebody with medical training to know he wasn't able to speak. And this was all with videos being taken, I really don't want to think what may have happened without the videos. Did EG always sell cigarettes in front of those particular storefronts, I wonder, you would think he would go sell them at the park, or other areas, not in front of stores.

bbm

On Thursday morning, Eric gave Pinky $400 and told her to get groceries for the house and then went to his corner of Bay St. and Victory Blvd. where he made his living selling bootleg cigarettes, $7 a pack and 75 cents for loosies. On the street he was known simply as “E.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...embers-husband-gentle-giant-article-1.1872618

 

[Archangel7]

Once this chokehold is administered successfully how long is the person arrested usually unconscious before regaining it?

Just wondering.

It varies with the time applied, the intensity applied and the individual. It starts somewhat slowly giving time to indicate compliance and usually consciousness is regained in 5-10 seconds. There is no real standard time although it's common sense to determine when it has gone too long and if someone is having difficulty recovering.

 

[leah]

From studying jujitsu for years, my experience would be usually less than 10 seconds. Much longer than that and you start to worry.

It happened so fast, he was alive and talking, they got him to the ground, and that was it. Horrible to see someone die like that, I know that he supposedly died in the hospital, but it sure didn't seem that way to me. I'm not suggesting that anyone is lying about that, but if he was breathing, it sure was faint.

 

[CoolJ]

EG had equal responsibility not to be exposed to potential injury. He resisted a lawful arrest and was taken into custody appropriately and by the letter and spirit of the law. No more no less.
It is ridiculous to think cops enjoy having to roll around on the ground to effect an arrest or hurting people. Your statement seems to indicate speculation and painting with a broad brush.

It is how I feel from personal experiences. I have seen the laughing and the high fives. I have heard some conversations.
But it doesn't mean all LE act that way does it?

 

[CoolJ]

The EMT, talked to EG like he was aware of what was going on. She must have been just doing that for show, doesn't take somebody with medical training to know he wasn't able to speak. And this was all with videos being taken, I really don't want to think what may have happened without the videos. Did EG always sell cigarettes in front of those particular storefronts, I wonder, you would think he would go sell them at the park, or other areas, not in front of stores.

Yes makes you think how often these sorts of things happen and are not caught on film doesn't it?

 

[SCHMAE]

Well maybe they could have made sure he was calmed down and had a chance to tell his side of the story before they decided to arrest him. Seems like a no brainer if you truly don't want to hurt anybody. Personally, I think they just find it fun to be able beat up on a guy. I think they enjoy this stuff , it makes for good stories and high fives after the paper work is done. JMO

Suppose a criminal was running down the street with 5 purses he's just snatched.LE sees him snatch them. Should LE make sure he is calm and get his side of the story before deciding to arrest him ?

 

[leah]

bbm

On Thursday morning, Eric gave Pinky $400 and told her to get groceries for the house and then went to his corner of Bay St. and Victory Blvd. where he made his living selling bootleg cigarettes, $7 a pack and 75 cents for loosies. On the street he was known simply as “E.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...embers-husband-gentle-giant-article-1.1872618

Thank-you, it sure would seem better to go elsewhere to sell them, but that is hardly the point.

 

[jggordo]

It varies with the time applied, the intensity applied and the individual. It starts somewhat slowly giving time to indicate compliance and usually consciousness is regained in 5-10 seconds. There is no real standard time although it's common sense to determine when it has gone too long and if someone is having difficulty recovering.

Thank you for your input and service in a many times thankless profession. But your answer tells me a lot about the lack of criminal intent yet also a lot about negligence. Again thanks.

JMO's

 

[CoolJ]

It happened so fast, he was alive and talking, they got him to the ground, and that was it. Horrible to see someone die like that, I know that he supposedly died in the hospital, but it sure didn't seem that way to me. I'm not suggesting that anyone is lying about that, but if he was breathing, it sure was faint.

He was pronounced dead at the hospital. We don't know when he actually died.

 

[Archangel7]

I don't have the time for that either. Nor do I know if that information is even available to the public. The pertinent question, I think, is did the police officers on scene have reason to think that he would do anything violent toward them? Just based on what I saw on the video, I would say "no."

I don't have the media link, but read where he had 31 arrests including resisting. It didn't address whether it was violent or not. He had assault and domestic charge in that 31 per the media. So without a link take that info as you will.
It wouldn't automatically mean they knew that info at the time of arrest or didn't. Likely they knew him from the past as we usually know career criminals when we see them.

Regardless, the law states in use of force cases, that only what is known to the officer at that is relevant, not 20/20 hindsight, so P couldn't come back later and say EG had a violent past unless he knew that going in.

Found A Link, not the link I read initially but states the same...........http://www.wsj.com/articles/new-yor...minal-charges-in-eric-garner-death-1417635275

Family and friends said Mr. Garner was married with six children and two grandchildren. He has a criminal record that includes more than 30 arrests dating back to 1980 on charges such as assault, resisting arrest and grand larceny. An official said the charges include several incidents in which he was arrested for selling unlicensed cigarettes.

 

[leah]

Yes makes you think how often these sorts of things happen and are not caught on film doesn't it?

It does, I'm not talking bad about cops, but I have seen some questionable things happen, that upset me, when we lived in CA.

 

[CoolJ]

Suppose a criminal was running down the street with 5 purses he's just snatched.LE sees him snatch them. Should LE make sure he is calm and get his side of the story before deciding to arrest him ?

No, because criminal is actually fleeing in this scenario. This is the scenario where it would actually make sense to have to tackle someone to the ground.

 

[Elley Mae]

Thank-you, it sure would seem better to go elsewhere to sell them, but that is hardly the point.

I honestly am surprised he was selling so cheap, I guess it depends on where and what was paid, but that is not alot of profit. Hopefully they will find out where he was getting them though his phone.

Virginia (last year -$5.81), Missouri ($5.25): $5.25 = -10%, +0%

New York ($14.50): $12.85 = -11%

http://www.theawl.com/2014/08/how-much-a-pack-of-cigarettes-costs-state-by-state

even at virginia/missouri prices it's only 1.75 profit a pack

loosies would be 15.00 at 75cents a smoke, that is still not much profit since their (NY) smokes a pack are like 12-15 dollars a pack. idk

 

[Zuri]

The EMT, talked to EG like he was aware of what was going on. She must have been just doing that for show, doesn't take somebody with medical training to know he wasn't able to speak. And this was all with videos being taken, I really don't want to think what may have happened without the videos. Did EG always sell cigarettes in front of those particular storefronts, I wonder, you would think he would go sell them at the park, or other areas, not in front of stores.

To be fair, I do the same thing, always talking to a patient as though they can hear me. Your sense of hearing is the last sense to go before death. It is just something we were taught a long time ago and I have seen young nurses do it, so I assume it is still being taught. You always want to explain what you are doing just in case.

Someone brought up an interesting point upthread about the female EMT possibly having been told what was up prior to her reaching EG. I thought about this and I think you may be correct. Typically, we are briefed before treating a patient and assumptions are made. In the ER, I worked closely with LE, Paramedics and EMTs. And yes, they set the tone sometimes when a belligerent, PITA patient was brought in. It didn't change the level of care, but it did "prejudice" us in a way and affected our attitude to an extent.

I have had to be nice and considerate to patients that had shot a cop, shot at cops, killed a spouse, killed a child, a serial killer, thieves, common criminals and give them the samenlevel of excellent care. Those were the most difficult patients to personally care for, because they had no regard for anyone but themselves. They hurt people.

I did my job and I did it well because it was the right thing to do and it was expected, a given. I remember once when this unresponsive, barely breathing guy was dumped by his "friends" at the entrance of the ER. Simply pushed him out of the car and onto the ground and drove off. I was at triage and saw this happen. So I grabbed some co workers and Security, and got him into a wheelchair and then onto a stretcher. He had overdosed on heroin and would have died if we hadn't given him Narcan. He woke up, cussed us out, spit on us. We had to call LE for assistance and they came and helped us, handcuffed the guy to the stretcher, so he couldn't injure us as he was swinging.

Sorry, I digressed. You got me a rememberin.

 

[Sonya610]

Both and IMO - loose cigarettes. Why is selling loose cigarettes illegal? He lost his life over a loose cigarette.

Because it is federally controlled and TAXED. If he was selling them for $7 a pack (in new york they are $12-14 a pack) they were definitely black market UNTAXED cigarettes that were in all likelihood stolen from stores.

Cigarette theft is a HUGE problem even in GA where they less than half the price than NYC. Some convenience stores have gangs buying them up using stolen credit cards so they can be sold black market (an easy way to turn stolen credit cards into cash), sheesh even the convenience store in a VERY rural area a few miles away from me got broken into one night and had all of their cigarettes stolen.

Selling untaxed cigarettes is NOT a victimless crime especially when most are stolen from honest business owners.

 

[CoolJ]

To be fair, I do the same thing, always talking to a patient as though they can hear me. Your sense of hearing is the last sense to go before death. It is just something we were taught a long time ago and I have seen young nurses do it, so I assume it is still being taught. You always want to explain what you are doing just in case.

Someone brought up an interesting point upthread about the female EMT possibly having been told what was up prior to her reaching EG. I thought about this and I think you may be correct. Typically, we are briefed before treating a patient and assumptions are made. In the ER, I worked closely with LE, Paramedics and EMTs. And yes, they set the tone sometimes when a belligerent, PITA patient was brought in. It didn't change the level of care, but it did "prejudice" us in a way and affected our attitude to an extent.

I have had to be nice and considerate to patients that had shot a cop, shot at cops, killed a spouse, killed a child, a serial killer, thieves, common criminals and give them the samenlevel of excellent care. Those were the most difficult patients to personally care for, because they had no regard for anyone but themselves. They hurt people.

I did my job and I did it well because it was the right thing to do and it was expected, a given. I remember once when this unresponsive, barely breathing guy was dumped by his "friends" at the entrance of the ER. Simply pushed him out of the car and onto the ground and drove off. I was at triage and saw this happen. So I grabbed some co workers and Security, and got him into a wheelchair and then onto a stretcher. He had overdosed on heroin and would have died if we hadn't given him Narcan. He woke up, cussed us out, spit on us. We had to call LE for assistance and they came and helped us, handcuffed the guy to the stretcher, so he couldn't injure us as he was swinging.

Sorry, I digressed. You got me a rememberin.

Yes, as a caring health professional you speak to the patient as though they can hear you. But this is a paramedic we are talking about here. I am a medical first responder and have extensive training in pre-hospital emergency care so I feel I can talk about this with some expertise. Step number 1 when attending to someone down is to determine level of responsiveness. So the steps taken should have been 1) Can you hear me? Are you awake? (Does person respond to verbal stimuli?) 2) pinch their skin or rub knuckles on sternum for response(does person respond to painful stimuli). If there is no response this person is considered unconscious and becomes an immediate medical emergency. Next step in this case would be assess breathing to actually check if they are breathing and to check for quality of breath. Next check airway to make sure there are no obstructions. Next check circulation (pulse). If there is a problem anywhere among those steps you must begin treatment (remove obstruction/create airway , CPR, rescue breathing, apply O2) . This is VERY basic pre-hospital emergency care and is done in EVERY situation.
This EMT, did not have equipment with her, skipped the basic steps and went right to checking pulse. Did not assess breathing, did not check airway(maybe he had gum stuck in his throat). Crazy.
It is so basic that I have to assume she was given reason NOT to do these things. I believe she was told he was faking. It is the only thing that makes sense. JMO

ETA - since he was unresponsive it should have also been assumed he may have a had a spinal injury and protocol would be to board him as though he did.

 

[Zuri]

Do chokeholds always render the person unconscious? Is that their purpose in general? I never thought about this before.

 

[Zuri]

Yes, as a caring health professional you speak to the patient as though they can hear you. But this is a paramedic we are talking about here. I am a medical first responder and have extensive training in pre-hospital emergency care so I feel I can talk about this with some expertise. Step number 1 when attending to someone down is to determine level of responsiveness. So the steps taken should have been 1) Can you hear me? Are you awake? (Does person respond to verbal stimuli?) 2) pinch their skin or rub knuckles on sternum for response(does person respond to painful stimuli). If there is no response this person is considered unconscious and becomes an immediate medical emergency. Next step in this case would be assess breathing to actually check if they are breathing and to check for quality of breath. Next check airway to make sure there are no obstructions. Next check circulation (pulse). If there is a problem anywhere among those steps you must begin treatment (remove obstruction/create airway , CPR, rescue breathing, apply O2) . This is VERY basic pre-hospital emergency care and is done in EVERY situation.
This EMT, did not have equipment with her, skipped the basic steps and went right to checking pulse. Did not assess breathing, did not check airway(maybe he had gum stuck in his throat). Crazy.
It is so basic that I have to assume she was given reason NOT to do these things. I believe she was told he was faking. It is the only thing that makes sense. JMO

I think you are correct, unfortunately. Thank you for all you do as a First Responder. I know you have seen some unimaginable things.

 

[Gardenlady]

Both and IMO - loose cigarettes. Why is selling loose cigarettes illegal? He lost his life over a loose cigarette.

I never thought this day would come, but I actually agree completely with TrackerSam.

:thud:

This is a stupid law, but not only that, it's not one worth losing a life over. Not worth harming another human being for breaking it.

I mean, we may as well go ahead and authorize lethal force for taking out jaywalkers. Honestly, can everyone at least agree that selling loose cigs, like jaywalking, is NOT something someone should be battered or die for?

I wonder what kind of country we are living in when a guy ends up dead for selling loose cigs and an elderly man is arrested for feeding the homeless. :banghead:



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