PA - Shane Montgomery, 21, Philadelphia, 27 Nov 2014 #5

[momthebomb]

I don't know, it's a tough question. But, at the very least they should allow that person to contact someone that they came in with. If Shane had been able to find his cousin or one of his friends, I really do not think this would have happened. Booting someone out the way Shane was booted out is just waiting for an event to happen. Either to the person being kicked out, or to someone else that they could harm or injure. It just doesn't make sense to ply someone with alcohol who is obviously drunk and then unleashing them on their own.
Think about it....Shane was only in Kildares for what? A half hour-45 minutes? I am quite sure, IMO, he was pretty much already on his way to being quite intoxicated, yet he tallied up a $17 tab. Seems like to me he should have been flagged right from the start, but then again, we will never really know, will we? Sad, just extremely sad.
I guess I really do not know, and God help me I hope I never do, but if I was Shane's mom, I would have to get to the bottom of it. IMO, Kildares is responsible to some degree. At the very least lying. Isn't that hindering an investigation or something? Perhaps when they get their wits about them, if they ever do, they will dig into what exactly happened that night. Someone earlier on here brought up the fact that if a lawsuit is brought against Kildares, the employees would have to answer questions under oath. That may be the only way they get the truth. My heart just aches for these poor people. God give them strength.

 

[momthebomb]

If I can be held responsible for someone that leaves my house drunk and injures themselves or others, why shouldn't a bar?

I agree people must take responsibility for themselves, but these places PACK these kids in on the weekends and probably make a fortune off of them.

My issue is them "kicking someone out" alone, and without any regard for the safety of a inebriated customer.

Excellent point!!!!!

 

[dmc43613]

If they are causing fights, destruction, etc. call the cops. Maybe try to find out if there is someone they could call to come get them, see if they're with others still inside...

I just know throwing someone out alone in a drunk state leaves them extremely vulnerable...

I am reminded of a case this summer at a concert in Cleveland where a young man, overserved, was kicked out and was later found in a landfill. The explanation was he fell down a garbage chute, which I don't believe for a minute.

If there is alcohol being served, there should be a plan in place to deal with these situations should they arise.

 

[heartgoesout]

"there should be a plan in place to deal with these situations should they arise."

This is an all the time occurrence...So what should the bars plan be?
So the bar should be responsible to get them out of the building safely? Then who is responsible for them once they are safely out of the building?
I don't think I can get past free will.

 

[dmc43613]

I agree, and admit it's been a while since I have been bar hopping but when I was someone always stayed with the person who caused the raucous until the cops came or they gathered up the group and made them leave with someone.

I completely agree with you on free will, and I can tell you I have used this case as an opportunity to talk to my boys about being responsible for themselves and others if drinking. This was a terrible unfortunate accident, but how different would the outcome have been if when Shane was asked to leave they asked him if he had his phone, was there someone he could call, where you heading, etc.

Hindsight is 20/20 I know, I wonder if the bar will think twice about how they handle kicking someone out?

 

[Ghostwheel]

So in everyone's opinion what should bars/clubs do with overly drunk patrons who are not able to control themselves? Someone who may have been served by different bartenders or had friends buy them drinks and possibly was taking drugs?

Call the police.
http://www.keystone.edu/about_us/departments_and_offices/forms/counseling/AlcoholPenaltiesPennsylvania.pdf

PUBLIC DRUNKENNESS
Section 5505 of the Pennsylvania Crimes Code (Title 18)
A person is guilty of a summary offense if he appears in any public place manifestly under the influence of alcohol to the degree that he may endanger himself or other persons or property, or annoy persons in his vicinity.

Those laws were written for a reason.

 

[heartgoesout]

I agree, and admit it's been a while since I have been bar hopping but when I was someone always stayed with the person who caused the raucous until the cops came or they gathered up the group and made them leave with someone.

I completely agree with you on free will, and I can tell you I have used this case as an opportunity to talk to my boys about being responsible for themselves and others if drinking. This was a terrible unfortunate accident, but how different would the outcome have been if when Shane was asked to leave they asked him if he had his phone, was there someone he could call, where you heading, etc.

Hindsight is 20/20 I know, I wonder if the bar will think twice about how they handle kicking someone out?

Maybe they did ask him all of this. I just think a lot of blame is being directed at Kildare's with very little fact, mostly hearsay and rumor. I said many pages ago we are a society that does not take self accountability.
I once cut a women off and she freaked out called me several names complained to my manager and got up without paying her bill and drove off. At what point am I responsible for her actions there after? Was she inebriated no, was she tipsy yes. I also found out she snuck to the bar downstairs before she left and had another shot. She managed to get herself together and that bartender didn't know what had happened upstairs. I really cut her off not because she was drinking heavily but more so because she was acting like an *ssh*ole and being obnoxious and rude.

 

[heartgoesout]

If I could have everyone who annoys me arrested...lol lol

 

[Ghostwheel]

Maybe they did ask him all of this. I just think a lot of blame is being directed at Kildare's with very little fact, mostly hearsay and rumor. I said many pages ago we are a society that does not take self accountability.
I once cut a women off and she freaked out called me several names complained to my manager and got up without paying her bill and drove off. At what point am I responsible for her actions there after?

Depends on your state, but under Dram Shop Laws, if you (generic you) don't cut someone off before they could be a danger to another person when they leave (Over the legal limit for driving), your (generic your) business can be liable for any accidents the over the limit person cause if it can be proven that drinking in your establishment contributed to the accident. This is specific to driving while under the influence, but cases like Shane's bring forth the issue that a person can be a danger to themselves, even if they are not driving.

 

[Ghostwheel]

If I could have everyone who annoys me arrested...lol lol

If they pee on you in public, you can.

 

[heartgoesout]

And if I were to be asked under oath, I would say she had three drinks, her tab was $17. I don't know what time she got here and I don't know how much she drank before or after she left. I would describe her as being a potential problem with her actions (not necessarily the amount she drank) and she was not inebriated when she left.
And then somehow she becomes my problem. I did not serve her all night I had very little time with her sitting at a table and her choices are now going to cost me my job, my reputation, a law suit etc...
Just playing devils advocate. : )

 

[heartgoesout]

If they pee on you in public, you can.

ew. lol

I just have a hard time accepting that people would call me disgusting and a liar. I just am pondering where free will and self responsibility end and blaming someone else begins. hmmmm

 

[dmc43613]

Small dive bars are more my speed nowadays...lol

The sort of neighborhood bars that someone will always make sure you get home safe if you have one too many...old people bars! lol

 

[Ghostwheel]

And if I were to be asked under oath, I would say she had three drinks, her tab was $17. I don't know what time she got here and I don't know how much she drank before or after she left. I would describe her as being a potential problem with her actions (not necessarily the amount she drank) and she was not inebriated when she left.
And then somehow she becomes my problem. I did not serve her all night I had very little time with her sitting at a table and her choices are now going to cost me my job, my reputation, a law suit etc...
Just playing devils advocate. : )

I believe in self accountability, don't get me wrong. A bar is in the business of selling drinks. But that's not like selling shoes. If you sell someone too many shoes, it's not going to hurt anyone (except possibly the buyer's bank account). Alcohol alters your brain chemistry. Once the brain chemistry is altered, responsible behavior might no longer be possible for that person. Can a bar owner know this? Of course not. But the dram shop laws were enacted to keep establishments from encouraging people to drink until they drop just so the shop can make a buck. So if someone was stumbling around just outside after only 3 drinks in the only establishment that anyone can prove served that person, then three drinks were too many and the establishment could have been liable if said stumbling person had driven off, had an accident, and it could be proven that the drinking caused or contributed to the accident. And if the establishment is liable, the bartender and whomever let the person leave and have the accident are probably not going to keep their jobs. Should there be a difference just because someone walks off, instead of drives off?

 

[PLT]

Maybe they did ask him all of this. I just think a lot of blame is being directed at Kildare's with very little fact, mostly hearsay and rumor. I said many pages ago we are a society that does not take self accountability.
I once cut a women off and she freaked out called me several names complained to my manager and got up without paying her bill and drove off. At what point am I responsible for her actions there after? Was she inebriated no, was she tipsy yes. I also found out she snuck to the bar downstairs before she left and had another shot. She managed to get herself together and that bartender didn't know what had happened upstairs. I really cut her off not because she was drinking heavily but more so because she was acting like an *ssh*ole and being obnoxious and rude.

I give credit to those like you in the bar industry who try to do the right thing. I don't think i would have the patience. Kildares certainly could have let Shane wait by the door for his friends rather than putting him out especially if he was visibly stumbling (which they said he wasn't). So if he was being polite and not stumbling like they said ....even more reason to let him wait or go get his friends. Kildares publically stated he was fine and and maybe that was because they didn't count on the video. In any event - I think they handled the ejection poorly. Whether he was or was not stumbling at that point - they could have let him wait for friends.

Or maybe he didn't ask or want to wait - but I get the sense he felt pressured to get out.

Having said that - if Kildares is going to be held responsible for his drinking - then the previous bar (s) also need to be looked at as well. He spent the least amount of time at Kildares. How much was he served in the place beforehand? Did they perhaps over serve him as well? How do bars that get so crowded keep tabs on who has had too many when friends could be buying drinks for that person? I am not sure what the answer is because when human judgement is the basis for action there will always be mistakes. Short of putting a breathelizer at the door when someone comes into a packed bar, it's difficult to keep tabs on him/her. That stumble at the bar could have been the only indication Kildares had of Shane being intoxicated and they then made sure he didn't have any more. But again it was the ejection process that I found fault with especially since the manager stated Shane was well known there - even more reason to help him out.

 

[turanna25]

I can tell you from experience that larger venues, like concert venues, stadiums, convention halls, etc. have called ambulances for patrons that appear to be overly intoxicated and they end up in the emergency department. I'm in emergency department nurse and we're notified ahead of time (usually) when there's a concert or certain event being held that may increase our volume. Also, I know that casinos also have EMTS or medical staff trained to handle intoxicated individuals and typically for liability purposes they end up being brought to the emergency department. These people are usually okay but we end up having to let them sober up in a bed or find a responsible adult who isn't intoxicated to come get them and take responsibility for them. I think it's a little ridiculous to bring every intoxicated person to the ER but from a liability standpoint many businesses do it so that they can say later on that they did the right thing since in this day and age everyone is worried about being held accountable for others actions.

 

[PLT]

If people are 21 or older and in a bar, they should be responsible for themselves, Imo. Obviously bars should not serve people who are quite apparently intoxicated already, or overserve, but I cannot see making bar owners responsible for making sure a customer they ask to leave gets home safely, as long as they are not driving. If they put them into cabs, who pays? There has to be some level of personal responsibility, Imo. Should they call the police and let them deal with it? Police are not taxi services either.

I am not speaking of Shane's situation specifically. But I would guess that bars ask people to leave all the time and I can't see how they could run their businesses if they are required to oversee each one to their doorsteps. But jmo. Not sure what the answer is, except maybe round up the people Shane came in with, in this case, and have them leave together. Safety in numbers, supposedly.

...and you know it wouldn't be long before a case would occur where the bar gets sued for putting someone in a cab if they then were harmed or injured as a result of the cab ride - getting involved in an accident or incident getting home etc. Cabbies often will refuse a really intoxicated person traveling alone for their own liability issues (person can't tell them the address, can't pay, gets sick etc)

 

[ChuckMaureen]

As soon as I heard the news yesterday, ChuckMaureen, I thought of that posting that you put together. It is amazing what you did. In looking at the photo again, are there actual steps coming from the rail bridge as a means to get down to the walkway/path again? Or would he have had to jump?

Once down, how long does that walkway/path continue? If he made it to the back of the Brew Pub, how would he get up to the deck? Would he use that ramp that seems to lead down to the river? If so, how would he get on that?

It is a simple transition from the rails to the bank, simply step off the rails path and on to the dirt. If one continues along the rails to the bridge then one would have to jump from the bridge to ground. Walk farther on the bridge and you're over water. It is approximately 100' - 125' from where the rails begin on the bridge base and the edge of the 'dock'. Note that the canal also exits where the 'dock' is positioned. There are steps leading up from the 'dock' area to the alley between the two establishments.

 

[Kevinc3143]

At this point I think everyone would consider it unseemly for Kildare's to make a statement now that Shane's been found-I'm not sure I would have even asked them for one

I would Have. Those <modsnip> Should Have Said " We at Kildare's learned today the Shane was found in the River. We are deeply Saddened to learn of this, and are very sorry to hear of Shane's passing"

 

[Kevinc3143]

[/B]

Yes, I agree, Cement.

Here is the Deal with that. I went there and when I told her the Card is here and the management denied it Having it She looked for it and Found It. It was placed upon the Host stand And I said to Shane's Cousin. "What are the Chances of this card staying here til tomorrow when Law Enforcement comes to pick It Up Since they denied it Previously?" He said "You and I Know it won't be here since they denied having it prior till now."

So I asked her If i could Take it and She said Yes I want Shane found. I don't care about this place or their corporate B.S.

Stevie Wonder Could See the managers that denied having it would have tossed it away.