PA - Shane Montgomery, 21, Philadelphia, 27 Nov 2014 #5

[Kevinc3143]

So in everyone's opinion what should bars/clubs do with overly drunk patrons who are not able to control themselves? Someone who may have been served by different bartenders or had friends buy them drinks and possibly was taking drugs?

Your not going to Change what a bar can Legally Do In these situation. 3 things can Get a bar off any Law Suit. 1) Observe the patron enough to make a determination of his Intoxication. 2) Slow their Service down, 3) Offer food, water or Coffee to slow the process of getting drunk down. These are thing taught to us in classes by the State. R.A.M.P.S and T.I.P.S. certifications

 

[Kevinc3143]

If I can be held responsible for someone that leaves my house drunk and injures themselves or others, why shouldn't a bar?

I agree people must take responsibility for themselves, but these places PACK these kids in on the weekends and probably make a fortune off of them.

My issue is them "kicking someone out" alone, and without any regard for the safety of a inebriated customer.

By law a Bar can be held responsible. Serving Alcohol is not a game to bar owners its Big Business. There are education classes bartenders go to and servers go to. You get certified by the state. Same with Bouncers. now do the Bouncers follow these things. Not All the time.

 

[circe221]

I don't know, it's a tough question. But, at the very least they should allow that person to contact someone that they came in with. If Shane had been able to find his cousin or one of his friends, I really do not think this would have happened. Booting someone out the way Shane was booted out is just waiting for an event to happen. Either to the person being kicked out, or to someone else that they could harm or injure. It just doesn't make sense to ply someone with alcohol who is obviously drunk and then unleashing them on their own.
Think about it....Shane was only in Kildares for what? A half hour-45 minutes? I am quite sure, IMO, he was pretty much already on his way to being quite intoxicated, yet he tallied up a $17 tab. Seems like to me he should have been flagged right from the start, but then again, we will never really know, will we? Sad, just extremely sad.
I guess I really do not know, and God help me I hope I never do, but if I was Shane's mom, I would have to get to the bottom of it. IMO, Kildares is responsible to some degree. At the very least lying. Isn't that hindering an investigation or something? Perhaps when they get their wits about them, if they ever do, they will dig into what exactly happened that night. Someone earlier on here brought up the fact that if a lawsuit is brought against Kildares, the employees would have to answer questions under oath. That may be the only way they get the truth. My heart just aches for these poor people. God give them strength.

These were my thoughts exactly. The bouncer (or whoever asked him to leave - because I still think that is what happened) should have asked him who he was there with, or found one of the kids in his group to escort him out. I have seen this happen in bars, basically the bouncer or manager will say to the friend, "Hey, get your buddy out of here." I totally agree that Kildare's has some responsibility in this, but to what extent, we just don't know. I am still of the opinion that he had already had a lot to drink before getting there, or added something else into the mix -pot, painkillers, etc. that may have amplified the effect of the alcohol. But even still, throwing a drunk kid out on the street on the night before Thanksgiving in the snow just doesn't sit well with me.

 

[circe221]

I can tell you from experience that larger venues, like concert venues, stadiums, convention halls, etc. have called ambulances for patrons that appear to be overly intoxicated and they end up in the emergency department. I'm in emergency department nurse and we're notified ahead of time (usually) when there's a concert or certain event being held that may increase our volume. Also, I know that casinos also have EMTS or medical staff trained to handle intoxicated individuals and typically for liability purposes they end up being brought to the emergency department. These people are usually okay but we end up having to let them sober up in a bed or find a responsible adult who isn't intoxicated to come get them and take responsibility for them. I think it's a little ridiculous to bring every intoxicated person to the ER but from a liability standpoint many businesses do it so that they can say later on that they did the right thing since in this day and age everyone is worried about being held accountable for others actions.

Yep. And to add a personal note - I was recently hospitalized for a severe colitis flare-up. While waiting (14 hours) for a bed to open on the floor that I was being admitted to, not one, but TWO ambulances brought people in who were drunk. One was an older man - probably @65-70, who was mumbling and incoherent. And the other was a younger, 25-30 woman, who was slurring her speech a bit, but mostly coherent. Both "patients" remained on gurneys until the ER staff was satisfied that they had sobered enough to go home. The woman kept trying to leave, but they had done bloodwork and I heard the nurse say that her potassium levels were not high enough yet. The nurses even called family members of both people to explain what was going on, and let them know when they could come and pick them up. So this does happen. Not saying that these bars should clog up ER's with drunks, but it does happen.

 

[CementPond]

Agreed. And I've been in several bars where I've seen this happen. The person in question was served water, despite their protesting and carrying on about it. But I've also seen other patrons look out for others who appeared to be extremely intoxicated. They sat them down, talked them out of leaving, offered them water and food. Another time I actually witnessed another patron take some drunk guy from the neighborhood home in a cab (he called the cab then went with the cabbie to drop this guy off) then came back (and paid for it). Many times people drink and get drunk in their neighborhood bars. Where are their fellow neighbors and friends who usually watch out for one another? Does this not happen anymore? Not saying anyone should be or has to be responsible for another person but, at what point does your basic human instincts and emotions kick in to help someone? Where is your empathy? Your kindness? Your willingness to help? I mean, I'm sure these bars aren't dealing with THAT many FALL DOWN drunks every night. My guess is it happens only so often (in all my life I've seen it happen a handful of times....and at one point in my life I was a once a week frequenter of the local pub). A few here and there. So is it really too much to ask to stop that person and let them sit inside until the drunkenness wears off some before sending them off? Is it too much to ask to stop said drunk person and ask them if they came with anyone or if there is anyone they could call for them? I guess it is too much to ask when you have a bar that is 3 stories high and way over capacity and only 2 bouncers on hand to deal with them. THAT is a problem! There is no way that many people should be stuffed into a place like that with virtually no one to handle them should issues arise. That's like 2 teachers taking 10 classrooms full of kids on a field trip themselves. Ridiculous!

I don't know. I just feel that sometimes people are just so wrapped up in themselves that they just can't be bothered to stop and help others and that is just sad. That or they simply don't care and don't want to help. I don't know, if my kid was fall down drunk and looked like he needed help I would hope that someone would take 2 minutes out of their day to ask him if he was ok. I know I would as I've done so in the past. Yes, people do need to be responsible for their own actions but you know, stuff happens. It wouldn't kill someone to take a few minutes to stop and ask if they're ok. For all we know that person could have been drugged (or attacked) and wasn't just acting irresponsible by drinking too much. You never know until you ask. I don't know. I guess no one wants to be bothered anymore. It's a shame.

Your not going to Change what a bar can Legally Do In these situation. 3 things can Get a bar off any Law Suit. 1) Observe the patron enough to make a determination of his Intoxication. 2) Slow their Service down, 3) Offer food, water or Coffee to slow the process of getting drunk down. These are thing taught to us in classes by the State. R.A.M.P.S and T.I.P.S. certifications

 

[Jmoose]

I would Have. Those <modsnip> Should Have Said " We at Kildare's learned today the Shane was found in the River. We are deeply Saddened to learn of this, and are very sorry to hear of Shane's passing"

Kevin-of course they should have said exactly that-but they ARE <modsnip>. This type of establishment is in business to allow more than the legal number of people to enter, so they can make money hand over fist-I understand what everyone else is saying about personal responsibility, but Kildare's is full of "professionals", and they are preying on the stupidity of newly legal alcohol consumers. Kildare's doesn't want someone like me in there, drinking 1 pint of beer, slowly. They serve those cheap specials for a reason; they're attempting to override one's self control (if the kids even have any self control).

 

[takeittothebank]

If Kildare's wants to keep reminding us that Shane was a 'relative' of one of their employees. Then that is all the more that morally they should have handled things differently.

 

[Jmoose]

If Kildare's wants to keep reminding us that Shane was a 'relative' of one of their employees. Then that is all the more that morally they should have handled things differently.

This!

 

[Jonesy124]

"there should be a plan in place to deal with these situations should they arise."

This is an all the time occurrence...So what should the bars plan be?
So the bar should be responsible to get them out of the building safely? Then who is responsible for them once they are safely out of the building?
I don't think I can get past free will.

If you can't get past free will please go on Kildaire's FB page. It looks like NYE ever weekend and they are packed beyond capacity. Not only is it a fire hazard but it puts patrons at risk for bumping into things, being over served, etc. The owner opened up this establishment and it was supposed to be family friendly. Well that's a joke. They lied about Shane and many many other patrons. They prey on these young kids and take their money though. My friend told me a story her father took her husband and 5 other guys to Kildaire's for his bachelor party. He said they were arm and arm like sardines. Her brother left because he lived close to the bar because he spilled his drink in the chaos to change his shirt. No one knew he was even gone because again they got separated in the chaos. That should not be. I do believe in perosnal responibility but these kids don't go down there to drink tea and have cookies. There should be some safety precautions in place starting with not packing this place in beyond capacity every weekend. There was a woman who killed someone in a drunk driving accident a few years back and she started drinking at Kildaire's her first stop. Kildaire's refused for months to cooperate with authorities.

 

[takeittothebank]

I don't know, it's a tough question. But, at the very least they should allow that person to contact someone that they came in with. If Shane had been able to find his cousin or one of his friends, I really do not think this would have happened. Booting someone out the way Shane was booted out is just waiting for an event to happen. Either to the person being kicked out, or to someone else that they could harm or injure. It just doesn't make sense to ply someone with alcohol who is obviously drunk and then unleashing them on their own.
Think about it....Shane was only in Kildares for what? A half hour-45 minutes? I am quite sure, IMO, he was pretty much already on his way to being quite intoxicated, yet he tallied up a $17 tab. Seems like to me he should have been flagged right from the start, but then again, we will never really know, will we? Sad, just extremely sad.
I guess I really do not know, and God help me I hope I never do, but if I was Shane's mom, I would have to get to the bottom of it. IMO, Kildares is responsible to some degree. At the very least lying. Isn't that hindering an investigation or something? Perhaps when they get their wits about them, if they ever do, they will dig into what exactly happened that night. Someone earlier on here brought up the fact that if a lawsuit is brought against Kildares, the employees would have to answer questions under oath. That may be the only way they get the truth. My heart just aches for these poor people. God give them strength.

Bolded by me.......same thing I thought, at the very least they should be held responsible for lying and hindering an investigation.

I don't think they handled Shane's disappearance like humans. And I think the 10k pledge was because they were under fire by the public and looked at closely by everyone involved

 

[borndem]

I found an informative, and somewhat medically graphic, article dealing with the postmortem examination of a body found in water (as we know, not all bodies found in water have actually drowned -- and I am in no way saying this is the case with Shane, just mentioning it because the article does). Here is what it says about BAC:

Additionally, taking an accurate BAC from a drown victim is further rendered futile in cases where decomposition has already begun, since alcohol is naturally manufactured in the body through the process of decaying. Consequently, a BAC level in these type of deaths, which on the average requires another month for a lab to process, is not very informative to an experienced and astute medical examiner, especially one who isn’t totally convinced that drinking was what caused the individual’s drowning.

from:
http://killingkillers.blogspot.com/p/drowning-forensics.html

I found it quite informative, but it does get down to the nitty-gritty -- again, using a medical attitude. Just so you know.

 

[charminglane]

L

Agreed. And I've been in several bars where I've seen this happen. The person in question was served water, despite their protesting and carrying on about it. But I've also seen other patrons look out for others who appeared to be extremely intoxicated. They sat them down, talked them out of leaving, offered them water and food. Another time I actually witnessed another patron take some drunk guy from the neighborhood home in a cab (he called the cab then went with the cabbie to drop this guy off) then came back (and paid for it). Many times people drink and get drunk in their neighborhood bars. Where are their fellow neighbors and friends who usually watch out for one another? Does this not happen anymore? Not saying anyone should be or has to be responsible for another person but, at what point does your basic human instincts and emotions kick in to help someone? Where is your empathy? Your kindness? Your willingness to help? I mean, I'm sure these bars aren't dealing with THAT many FALL DOWN drunks every night. My guess is it happens only so often (in all my life I've seen it happen a handful of times....and at one point in my life I was a once a week frequenter of the local pub). A few here and there. So is it really too much to ask to stop that person and let them sit inside until the drunkenness wears off some before sending them off? Is it too much to ask to stop said drunk person and ask them if they came with anyone or if there is anyone they could call for them? I guess it is too much to ask when you have a bar that is 3 stories high and way over capacity and only 2 bouncers on hand to deal with them. THAT is a problem! There is no way that many people should be stuffed into a place like that with virtually no one to handle them should issues arise. That's like 2 teachers taking 10 classrooms full of kids on a field trip themselves. Ridiculous!

I don't know. I just feel that sometimes people are just so wrapped up in themselves that they just can't be bothered to stop and help others and that is just sad. That or they simply don't care and don't want to help. I don't know, if my kid was fall down drunk and looked like he needed help I would hope that someone would take 2 minutes out of their day to ask him if he was ok. I know I would as I've done so in the past. Yes, people do need to be responsible for their own actions but you know, stuff happens. It wouldn't kill someone to take a few minutes to stop and ask if they're ok. For all we know that person could have been drugged (or attacked) and wasn't just acting irresponsible by drinking too much. You never know until you ask. I don't know. I guess no one wants to be bothered anymore. It's a shame.

You said it!!!
Great analogy by the way! I've been a bartender and a school teacher, so I understand of what you speak!
Totally agree most of the blame should be on personal responsibility. And watching out for one another. If I were still in the business earning a paycheck making the drinks--I might side more with the establishment, but prolly not with this one.

 

[Phila]

I agree it would have been nice for Kildare's to acknowledge that Shane had been found and to extend their condolences.
I have been out many times in my early 20s when a friend has gotten flagged or ejected from a bar. Never once was that person left alone to fend for themselves. The bouncer or bartender always informed someone in our party to take care of them. The bars have always been packed (shore bars and Center City) so that is not a good excuse, IMO. Imagine how differently things would have been if one of the employees that escorted him out let him find a friend or did it for him. Kildares disgusts me and I will never patronize any of their establishments again. They can certainly afford to put bees measures in place and should have adequate staff on holidays. I wonder if their business has been affected at all?
I am surprised that they haven't gotten slammed before for this. I believe Ryan Dunn was at the location in West Chester before his car crash. They produced a bar tab then too that wasn't significant.

 

[borndem]

If people are 21 or older and in a bar, they should be responsible for themselves, Imo. Obviously bars should not serve people who are quite apparently intoxicated already, or overserve, but I cannot see making bar owners responsible for making sure a customer they ask to leave gets home safely, as long as they are not driving. If they put them into cabs, who pays? There has to be some level of personal responsibility, Imo. Should they call the police and let them deal with it? Police are not taxi services either.

I am not speaking of Shane's situation specifically. But I would guess that bars ask people to leave all the time and I can't see how they could run their businesses if they are required to oversee each one to their doorsteps. But jmo. Not sure what the answer is, except maybe round up the people Shane came in with, in this case, and have them leave together. Safety in numbers, supposedly.

I agree about the responsibility part especially, clu.

I don't know if this is a law in NC, but bartenders will not sell a pitcher of beer to an individual; neither will they serve him/her more than one beer at a time. That helps some of the people some of the time, IMO.

We are not allowed to drink/serve alcohol to any one younger than 21 y/o in most states, or in all, IDK -- that implies "adult" which also implies personal responsibility, as you said. Some people, many I assume since I was that way years ago when I used to drink alcohol, do not know when they have had too much -- that's what a good bartender or server is trained to know -- when to stop serving -- again, in NC anyway. When that breaks down, it opens the gate to potential tragedy. We see it at least once a week or so in the news - car crashes, people injured or dead due to drunk driving, DV, or belligerence in a bar or outside of one. It's a complicated problem not easily solved, IMO.

 

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

If anyone has any free time to search for a news article- I've been living above Main Street roughly 28 yrs.
I can't remember ever reading about someone drowning along this stretch.
Most drownings are in Norristown, Flat Rock Dam in Gladwyne & boat ramp. Boathouse row aka Art Museum and further up the Schuykill or down stream near the center of Phila.
I'm surprised with all the bars along Main & all the youngsters drinking heavily that there hasn't been a ton of drownings here along this stretch.

 

[Helplessly Hoping]

just trying to keep caught up here but wanted to make an observation--I see so many posters--new and old--bonded and mourning--I have participated on many threads/cases here and while there is the odd unnecessary comment, I'm reminded that most people have the best intentions and big hearts and if I needed help finding a loved one--well I'd enlist your help. A little bit off-topic--I have a nephew, "Shawn" who is estranged from most of our family given addiction issues--I have tried to reach out as I feel he needs to know that he is loved, but he has made it difficult--I have a renewed mission to try and reach him, offer him a meal, an ear etc--I honestly feel that sometimes it is a simple kindness or remembering someone that can make a big difference

I don't know what happened to Shane that night but I do know that he was loved and people cared. Not everyone feels loved and his passing has been a reminder to me to try a little harder....sorry for the off-topic but this Irish lad has made a dent in my heart---

 

[dmc43613]

just trying to keep caught up here but wanted to make an observation--I see so many posters--new and old--bonded and mourning--I have participated on many threads/cases here and while there is the odd unnecessary comment, I'm reminded that most people have the best intentions and big hearts and if I needed help finding a loved one--well I'd enlist your help. A little bit off-topic--I have a nephew, "Shawn" who is estranged from most of our family given addiction issues--I have tried to reach out as I feel he needs to know that he is loved, but he has made it difficult--I have a renewed mission to try and reach him, offer him a meal, an ear etc--I honestly feel that sometimes it is a simple kindness or remembering someone that can make a big difference

I don't know what happened to Shane that night but I do know that he was loved and people cared. Not everyone feels loved and his passing has been a reminder to me to try a little harder....sorry for the off-topic but this Irish lad has made a dent in my heart---

I hope you reach your nephew and he holds on to your love.

 

[Jonesy124]

Maybe it's my own grief but just can't get out of my mind what actually happened. Did anyone see anything? What about those cars in the lot? Were they checked out? Something is nagging at me now and again maybe just my own grief of how did this happen?

 

[charminglane]

just trying to keep caught up here but wanted to make an observation--I see so many posters--new and old--bonded and mourning--I have participated on many threads/cases here and while there is the odd unnecessary comment, I'm reminded that most people have the best intentions and big hearts and if I needed help finding a loved one--well I'd enlist your help. A little bit off-topic--I have a nephew, "Shawn" who is estranged from most of our family given addiction issues--I have tried to reach out as I feel he needs to know that he is loved, but he has made it difficult--I have a renewed mission to try and reach him, offer him a meal, an ear etc--I honestly feel that sometimes it is a simple kindness or remembering someone that can make a big difference

I don't know what happened to Shane that night but I do know that he was loved and people cared. Not everyone feels loved and his passing has been a reminder to me to try a little harder....sorry for the off-topic but this Irish lad has made a dent in my heart---

Good luck with your nephew. Be strong.
My cousin is older and having the same issues. My prayer every night is that he knows how much he is loved. I can't fight the fight for him, however I can wrap warm and loving thoughts around him at all times.

 

[heartgoesout]

Thanks for all of the opinions. I am thinking what law can be established in Shane's name. Shane's Law, if you will.

But as I think of a solution only more problems pop up for what a bar should legally and morally have to do when an intoxicated is asked to leave.
They could call a cab. What if cabs won't take them?
They could have a waiting room, but now you're just putting a bunch of drunk people together. Fuel, meet fire.
The bar cannot let them go look for their friends because they just got kicked out for a reason. Many times fighting.
They can allow them to make a phone call, but who's to say that person comes to get them?
The employees can't babysit them outside.
They can monitor the patrons drinks and actions but who knows what they did before or after they leave? Or how many different bartenders they are served by.
Is the bar to call the police every time they ask someone to leave? What if the police are busy or its a small town with only 2 police on duty?
So who is responsible for people that are asked to leave?

I just can't think of a solution other than shutting down clubs/bars. NO!! I know I have an unpopular opinion but I just don't blame Kildare's and especially when I don't know the whole, true story on their remarks or actions. But I do respect everyone's opinion on this. : )