PA - Shane Montgomery, 21, Philadelphia, 27 Nov 2014 #5

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

This may be another reason that Shane was "stumbling" over the bridge:

"In slow hypothermia, by the time body temperature drops to 90°F (32°C) both the central and peripheral nervous systems are impaired, primarily due to decreased blood flow to the brain (6-7% per °C18): People are physically and mentally clumsy, show decreased sensitivity to pain, have slowed reflexes, and may hallucinate. Thus, a medical school mnemonic for hypothermia symptoms: “stumbles, mumbles, fumbles, and grumbles,” which summarizes changes in motor coordination and consciousness.

Sleepiness (“cold narcosis&#8221 occurs at around 86°F (30°C) core temperature. At around 81°F (27°C), people stop responding to verbal commands, and some reflexes (such as the reaction of eye pupils to light) stop working entirely. Knee jerk is the last reflex to go,j19 at 79°F (26°C). The body’s temperature-regulating mechanisms also fail and there is quick cooling until the body reaches ambient temperature. However, there is the usual individual variability, with recorded reflexes as low as 68°F (20°C)"

With his low body fat and minimal protective clothing, he may very well have begun experiencing the effects of hypothermia.

Maybe Chuckmaureen can help us with the windchill factor that night.
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-get-frostbite-or-hypothermia-2014-1

 

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

Here is the hypothermic chart for water

 

[turanna25]

http://www.nysaccme.org/library/HDI-world_drowning_congress.pdf

This is interesting.

Very interesting read! Thanks for sharing Always!

 

[Jonesy124]

Think of Shane barely walking a straight line on the 10 foot canal bridge. Swaying & hugging the left side- then swaying over to hug the right side. He couldn't walk straight with 10 feet. The wall ledge is maybe 24 inches. He'd never make it out there. Especially covered with snow & ice. Remember Detpac said, he wouldn't be able to do it drunk. Just a thought.

I didn't realize he was stumbling that badly and again incites my anger towards the deemed relative and bouncers. And also it wouldn't be unreasonable that he would stumble even down the enbankment. Especially with the conditions.

 

[AllGood]

http://www.nysaccme.org/library/HDI-world_drowning_congress.pdf

This is interesting.

In the article, it states that ["tragic accident" is too common a mindset--one that can cause tunnel vision.]

The above statement is exactly why this forum is so great. There are so many ideas and thoughts shared on here, that it is nearly impossible to have tunnel vision.
Though it is difficult switching from "well maybe", to "no way" and then being back to "well maybe" again is many thought processes (and not pleasant ones at that). Tunnel vision to me, means one thought...and that's it...
Sorry for being a bit OT, but as soon as I read this article, my thought process has changed...again.

 

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

I didn't realize he was stumbling that badly and again incites my anger towards the deemed relative and bouncers. And also it wouldn't be unreasonable that he would stumble even down the enbankment. Especially with the conditions.

I believe its a clear indication of "not recognizing" an intoxicated individual. He was asked to leave, he stumbled or tripped into the DJ's table- his debit card is not in his wallet or pocket- it's on the floor. They had to see he was impaired in one way or another. It's their job to spot this type of behavior, but it looks as if they simply chose to ignore it, bar was closing shortly- they wanted to go party themselves- most, not all like to have a drink after hours. Usually the ones who don't have a day job. I don't think they're going to say, he was slurring his words- he was a wreck- we tossed him out.
They said he was polite & apologized. I wonder how many 21-22 yr. olds left the bar hammered that night?...or any given weekend. I'm half tempted to go in there straight as an arrow and act drunk and see what they do.

 

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

In the article, it states that ["tragic accident" is too common a mindset--one that can cause tunnel vision.]

The above statement is exactly why this forum is so great. There are so many ideas and thoughts shared on here, that it is nearly impossible to have tunnel vision.
Though it is difficult witching from "well maybe", to "no way" and then being back to "well maybe" again is many thought processes (and not pleasant ones at that). Tunnel vision to me, means one thought...and that's it...
Sorry for being a bit OT, but as soon as I read this article, my thought process has changed...again.

Well, I was convinced someone harmed him foul play.
Then I changed given all the circumstances surrounding this case to suicide.
I had no doubt it would be ruled an accident- as most are. I also believe if the toxicolgy comes back that over dosed on something- it will still be ruled accidental.
I still can't find one person who drowned along this stretch of the river...how peculiar?

 

[Zuri]

I don't see this as a suicide by drowning per se, but it has got me thinking.

If you jump off the Delaware Memorial Bridge, is that considered suicide by drowning? To me, no. If Shane slipped and fell, hit his head and drowned, IMO, it would seem to be a more likely scenario. IMO

 

[charminglane]

Great article.
Thank you very much for finding and posting it for us.

 

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

I don't see this as a suicide by drowning per se, but it has got me thinking.

If you jump off the Delaware Memorial Bridge, is that considered suicide by drowning? To me, no. If Shane slipped and fell, hit his head and drowned, IMO, it would seem to be a more likely scenario. IMO

Yes, if you jumped off a bridge in the winter time into 45 degree water into a river of darkness and drowned- I would consider that suicidal drowning.

 

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

This is another quick read, easy to comprehend, but still informative

http://forensicsforwriters.blogspot.com/2013/04/death-by-drowning-murder-suicide.html

 

[letag519]

Alcohol and Cold Weather

Alcohol and warmth: the big misconception Alcohol can make you think that you’re warm. But the balmy glow and red cheeks that come with a drink are deceptive.“When you drink, it dilates the peripheral blood vessels near your skin, which means more blood – and heat – flows to these vessels,” says Professor Colin Drummond, head of the Section of Alcohol Research at King’s College London. “That takes blood and heat away from the core of your body. So while it feels like you’re warm because your skin is warm, your vital organs aren’t as warm as you might think they are.“If you then go out in the cold after drinking, because you’ve got a lot of heat on the periphery of your body, you can lose heat very easily and quickly. And that can be dangerous.”

https://www.drinkaware.co.uk/check-the-facts/effects-on-your-safety/drinking-alcohol-in-cold-weather

 

[Oak]

Hi, I'm new here, I've been following this case since the very beginning, especially, I guess since I live in Roxborough. Originally I thought maybe he had left, voluntarily because maybe he was depressed couldn't handle the pressures. I thought this I think, one because I was hoping and two because of the immediate and urgent response from his family, plus his drug/alcohol habits. Now that they have indeed found him in the river, I am leaning towards suicide for a few reasons, the immediate urgent response fro his family, the devastation that his parents had upon viewing him cross the bridge toward the parking lot/river, the distance of his keys and the tweet his cousin put up the day they found him, something about not making a permanent decision off of a temporary emotion. Plus while missing, his cousin said something about kicking his *advertiser censored** when shane comes back (hopefully and angry maybe?) and the fact that his cousin also said that his walk home from work will never be the same (seems to KNOW that shane is gone?) just my opinion, but that is how I am leaning.

 

[AlwaysOnTheCase]

I didn't realize he was stumbling that badly and again incites my anger towards the deemed relative and bouncers. And also it wouldn't be unreasonable that he would stumble even down the enbankment. Especially with the conditions.

Normally, I would have to agree that it wouldn't be unreasonable to believe he also tripped & fell, but if you look at this picture below: then I have to believe it's unreasonable-IMO
He'd have to step over the cement blocks or not..loose his footing, tumble or slip
down the embankment - and miraculously miss all the obstacles, trees, branches etc...attempt not to grab onto any of them to stop falling- many fairly sturdy saplings growing there.
The end of the bank is flat - so, gravity would probably stop him at that point...but, tumbled anyway into a half foot of water which was too deep for him to climb out- he continued walking or stumbling into the slanted river bottom into 1 foot, 2 feet, then 3 and so on without the bodies natural reaction of fight or flight coming into play. The cold temperature of the water didn't shock him - he ignored the warning signs because he was too impaired. The frigid temperature of the water had no effect on him- he didn't respond.
Yell or scream for help?... Busiest night of the year- bars were just letting out.
Could it happen? ...Anything is possible. I know that's why they call it accidents- but, the way I view it- that is one, fluke of missteps.

 

[momthebomb]

Hmmm, after looking at the pics, listening to everyone and putting it all together.....I am so sorry to say this, but.....

Either Suicide or
Foul play (no matter how hard I try, still cannot let go of foul play)

 

[turanna25]

Hmmm, after looking at the pics, listening to everyone and putting it all together.....I am so sorry to say this, but.....

Either Suicide or
Foul play (no matter how hard I try, still cannot let go of foul play)

We're in the same boat, momthebomb.

 

[Gone Girl]

http://www.nysaccme.org/library/HDI-world_drowning_congress.pdf

This is interesting.

Thank you for this, Always. It supports what many of us have grappled with in this and similar cases from the start. Unfortunately, there appears to be misinformation at the start of these cases or even maybe deliberate misleading by witnesses etc. The tone of this case changed right after the video. Only those who saw it know why. As this article suggests, if you want to commit foul play, accidental drowning is a great way to do it. Maybe in time, those close to the case will be able to explain what happened to possibly help others. If for example, it was a suicide, this can be a teachable moment for those who know others at risk. If it was foul play, and the circumstances are brought to light, it could be a cautionary tale of what to avoid to not become a victim. Tragic accident sounds the warning bell of too much alcohol or drugs, but I have yet to see those tales change anyone's behavior.

 

[Jonesy124]

Normally, I would have to agree that it wouldn't be unreasonable to believe he also tripped & fell, but if you look at this picture below: then I have to believe it's unreasonable-IMO
He'd have to step over the cement blocks or not..loose his footing, tumble or slip
down the embankment - and miraculously miss all the obstacles, trees, branches etc...attempt not to grab onto any of them to stop falling- many fairly sturdy saplings growing there.
The end of the bank is flat - so, gravity would probably stop him at that point...but, tumbled anyway into a half foot of water which was too deep for him to climb out- he continued walking or stumbling into the slanted river bottom into 1 foot, 2 feet, then 3 and so on without the bodies natural reaction of fight or flight coming into play. The cold temperature of the water didn't shock him - he ignored the warning signs because he was too impaired. The frigid temperature of the water had no effect on him- he didn't respond.
Yell or scream for help?... Busiest night of the year- bars were just letting out.
Could it happen? ...Anything is possible. I know that's why they call it accidents- but, the way I view it- that is one, fluke of missteps.
View attachment 66854

No I certainly understand that but I am still not sure if that was his point of entry we dont have that information. We also don't know how busy the parking lot was that night. I have heard from several neigbors down there that night that it was "eerily quiet". And I would say that if it was mostly locals partying that night they would have walked, gotten a cab or gotten dropped off that they weren't using that parking lot. I would say if people were out dining only they would have used it and left earlier than 2:00am. Since we are getting nothing from the police about those cars it's hard to know how many cars left after Shane entered. I am feeling very sad and angry today as I think about those two cops that originally looked into the case allowing the trash pickup lauging with their coffee cups and not paying attention until Shane's family/friends that were cops made it there. And if one staff at Kildaire's would have called a cab and his own "deemed relative" had said wait a minute this guy is a mess let me get help. Not one person did that. And they are still operating with no sanctions. Do those employees still have jobs there? I am just very very angry

 

[Kevinc3143]

If he was up on the ledge then maybe. Any other parts of the lot I dont think his whole body would have completely fallen in the water and led to a drowning. And as Im thinking about this, I think again about how the keys were so far away....ugh

So while I think an accident could have happened from the ledge, I also think if he was up on the ledge at night during snow in the first place it may have been suicide

So for those of you who are not from the area. He could have walked back the trail to the waters edge to smoke or Pee. That is a steep and sandy area of the waters banks. So with the Snowy and icy conditions and being intoxicated or slightly drunk it is very easy to fall right in. I was with Detpac and he was throwing a rock seeing how deep the water was at times. He slipped on a dry day just doing that. So imagine Shane in his condition and the snow and ice? <modsnip>

 

[Kevinc3143]

BBM: IMO, yes. Once they have done so, if the police cannot deal with it, it is on them, not the bar. And if there is a marked upswing in the number of times someone has to call the police that should tell the community something needs to be changed. (i.e more police, more responsibility on the bars/ restaurants to make sure they are not over serving people, etc). As it is, any bar can over serve and just claim that the person wasn't drunk when they left. In crowds like we have seen where the young adults gather, the other people there (especially other drunk people)can't tell if that person that just went out the door was drunk or not, as long as no one caused a scene.

Here is another thing. Let his mother or father or Uncle Do this type of advocating in the public and Use Shane's name to make a law in his name If They Feel Its what they are or have to do now in life!