AR - Fully-Armed Sheriffs Remove 7 Homeschool Children from 'Prepper' Family

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Is the point that people who choose to live a more off the grid, religiously centered lifestyle should be exempt from the same rules and laws about children and abuse that others are? Because after weeks of arguing, that is what I am sensing from some. So anytime any government or law enforcement agency becomes involved it is religious or educational big brother snooping into innocent circumstances? That is the tone I hear from those supporting the Stanley parents based solely on the parents interpretation of this legal situation involving their minor children. Which is maybe why I have such a difficult time discussing this case.

For me, the investigation into abuse allegations and the Stanleys' lifestyle choice, religion, home schooling, etc are two completely separate animals, neither tied to the other. Why is that such an unbelievable concept?
 
What does your statement have to do with this thread?

I can't speak for MyBelle but posters were criticizing the father's comments about his kids being sent to public school and it seemed very clear that MyBelle was responding to that. With respect, why is it okay for some to bring it up but others not to respond? See below:

From the same article

"Now they are being taught the world standards. We have homeschooled them. Now, they are being forced into public school. My children are not properly dressed. They are not properly prepared," he added. "My children are being abused as we speak by the public school system. Everything we have built for 22 years has been taken away."
What I bolded concerns me. This seems like a very odd thing to say when discussing the welfare of your children. Jmo

Let me give 2 hypothetical examples related to homeschooling.

If a family were homeschooling their children, but ONLY taught them to read, so that they could read the religious text of their faith, and didn't also teach them to write, do math, science, geography, history, etc-- THEN a family could be found to be educationally neglecting their children thru the homeschooling process.

Or hypothetically, let's imagine a family claiming that they are homeschooling, but they don't actually teach their children anything at all, and the children, who are mentally capable of learning, can't read or write, do math, etc by a reasonably comparable age to other children. THEN a family could be found to be educationally neglecting their children through homeschooling. Even if that family claimed that they were using "oral traditions" to teach their children.

The laws on homeschooling vary from state to state, but in common, they require parents who homeschool to teach their children to read, write, do math, etc. In my state, for example, if you do not have a bachelor's degree, you are required to meet more stringent requirements than a parent with a bachelor's degree or higher. IIRC, parents without a 4 year degree have to use a certified curriculum of their choice, and register that, as well as submit results of standardized testing periodically. If you do have a bachelor's degree, or higher, the laws more loosely define the requirements. (I haven't checked the actual wording in a while, so I may be a little off on this.) One of our kids is partially homeschooled for certain core subjects, so we had to do some research years ago to persuade the school district to get on board with our plan. We still have the district give this child the regular standardized tests in those subjects that everyone else takes, as a mechanism to officially document her progress in the homeschool curriculum we use. (They were quite happy with that part of our plan, lol!)

We haven't heard anything from officials that this Stanley case has anything to do with homeschooling. And indeed, it seems that 2 older kids have achieved college admission, so we can be at least reasonably sure that there is effective homeschooling going on in the home, unless something has changed drastically in recent months/ years. So, IMO, its a deceptive claim and a distraction for him to say that they are being persecuted simply because they are Christian homeschoolers.

It's not all that odd if the quality of the education is poor yet spending per pupil is high. These performance stats are terrible and there's no way one of my kids would go to public school in Hot Springs. My cousin's kids don't go to public school in Little Rock because of violence, drugs and poor quality of education.

Just one high school in Hot Springs and there were 14 weapons incidents, 3 staff assaults and 5 student assaults in 2012-13. That should concern any parent, imo.

http://hssd.net/files/2603000_ReportCard_2013.pdf

District Information

District Overview
District State Average
Graduation Rate 69.8% 76.4%
Dropout Rate 15.8% 4.7%

Per Pupil Spending $9,959 $8,855
Students Per Teacher 11.3 12.9
Number of Schools 8 -
Number of Students 3,733 -
Number of (FTE) Teachers 329

http://www.localschooldirectory.com/district-schools/2603000/Hot-Springs-School-District/AR

I really think we need to be fair here and not jump on people just because they have a different opinion. I like the debate!!!
 
Is the point that people who choose to live a more off the grid, religiously centered lifestyle should be exempt from the same rules and laws about children and abuse that others are? Because after weeks of arguing, that is what I am sensing from some. So anytime any government or law enforcement agency becomes involved it is religious or educational big brother snooping into innocent circumstances? That is the tone I hear from those supporting the Stanley parents based solely on the parents interpretation of this legal situation involving their minor children. Which is maybe why I have such a difficult time discussing this case.

For me, the investigation into abuse allegations and the Stanleys' lifestyle choice, religion, home schooling, etc are two completely separate animals, neither tied to the other. Why is that such an unbelievable concept?

BBM. Considering the posts here are silent, perhaps you are hearing the tone you want to hear?

My interest in this case has to do with whether this family has had their Constitutionally-protected rights violated by over-zealous government employees who don't seem to be acting in the best interest of the children.

The youngest child is only 4-years-old and I can only imagine how emotionally traumatizing it has been for him.
JMO

Attorney Emord: Arkansas Seizure of Stanley Kids is an Extraordinary Abuse of State Power

Starting out by acknowledging that he did not have all the facts, Emord stated that based on what is known, the Arkansas seizure of the Stanley children looks like:

“an abuse of power that is extraordinary.”

Emord goes on to state that it is generally recognized that the State has a responsibility to intervene when someone is physically harming a child, and law enforcement is necessary to protect the child from injury. But in an instance where there is no harm, such as in this case, where a doctor on the scene the day the children were taken away declared the children to be healthy, the State is abusing their power. Emord explains that other circumstances, such as living in poverty, or having an unapproved drug, is not justification to take someone’s children away.


http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/at...ry-abuse-of-state-power/#sthash.RpJHbX5P.dpuf
 
I wonder what the areas in and out of the Stanley house which needed to be cleaned up look like? What we have seen of the house, it seemed adequately tidy, but Mrs. Stanley herself remarked on some areas which required attention, and apparently friends and neighbors did some work on the yard.
 
No the state does not have the resources to provide tutors- states are lucky to have resources to house kids in the system.

I am very sure that another very religious "father" felt the same persecution and had the same complaints about his children being indoctrinated and losing his control on their "training" Yeah I'm pretty sure Warren Jeff's had the same objections..
 
BBM.

Attorney Emord: Arkansas Seizure of Stanley Kids is an Extraordinary Abuse of State Power

Starting out by acknowledging that he did not have all the facts, Emord stated that based on what is known, the Arkansas seizure of the Stanley children looks like:

“an abuse of power that is extraordinary.”

http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/at...ry-abuse-of-state-power/#sthash.RpJHbX5P.dpuf


Red BBM. I think that is extremely pertinent-- he does not have all the facts.
 
Red BBM. I think that is extremely pertinent-- he does not have all the facts.

True. None of us do. But what interesting is that he represents food and dietary supplement manufacturers and physicians who practice integrative medicine.

He's pretty leery of any government activity at all, believes that most government regulation is wrong (he's pretty anti-government). Very smart guy and great attorney, apparently, but he definitely has an agenda that is linked to MMS and government involvement in people's private lives, like how they raise their kids. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_W._Emord
 
JMO but I don't think the parents would be much happier even if the state homeschooled their kids as long as it's not the parents doing it.
 
Emord goes on to state that it is generally recognized that the State has a responsibility to intervene when someone is physically harming a child, and law enforcement is necessary to protect the child from injury. But in an instance where there is no harm, such as in this case, where a doctor on the scene the day the children were taken away declared the children to be healthy, the State is abusing their power. Emord explains that other circumstances, such as living in poverty, or having an unapproved drug, is not justification to take someone’s children away.[/I]

http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/at...ry-abuse-of-state-power/#sthash.RpJHbX5P.dpuf

In fact, it is a bit murky what happened at the scene. Was there a physician, or an EMT? I have read both. What were they looking for. These are kids with no medical history. An EMT can't declare someone healthy, and given the circumstances I doubt that a physician would be prepared to either.

I fully believe that Hal Stanley is truthful in recounting what he recalls he was told by various personnel. But I doubt that that they were intending to give a full blow by blow of what they were looking for or finding. The Stanleys have alluded to two areas of concern that relate to physical abuse. One is the chemical cure-all. The off-label uses of it are established as being harmful to humans. They say they weren't giving it to the children. Maybe so. But the Court has so far accepted as credible testimony regarding physical abuse from some family member. The other area of concern is corporal punishment. Had you listened to some of Hal's sermons--delivered to his children--you would realize that he believes that "chastening" with a rod is required to be dealt out by a father regularly to his children in order to properly train them. Depending on what allegations have been made, a physical exam may require x-rays and various other diagnostics.

This family is facing serious allegations. Physical abuse is very traumatic, and confusing for children. These accusations need to be taken seriously.
 
The Stanley's do have every right to be upset the children are in public school. The state does have the resources to provide a tutor for the children. After all, one person has been their teacher and if two children are already in college, she's done something right.

JMO

OT- Actually there is another public residential high school in hot springs that is absolutely awesome, Hot springs is home to the arkansas school for math, science and the arts (ASMSA). It is ranked 12th in the nation for STEM high schools. this doesn't really have anything to do with this case, as far as I know, just a shameless plug for one of the things my state has done really well :)
 
It seems to me that there is almost an avoidance of this issue in this thread. Indications are that the state is concerned about such physical violence toward the Stanley children, and while we certainly are not going to be apprised of the evidence, why not actually discuss this elephant in the room?

Our nation does not allow FMG as being justified by religious belief. One can practice any religion one chooses in this country. The line is drawn when such practice results in harm to others. I do not believe children to be the possessions of their parents, but believe them to be human beings with some rights of their own.

I will not tip-toe around this issue in this thread to satisfy anyone's religious beliefs. Appeals to constitutional issues ignore the fact that the constitution is to be interpreted and that all rights are not created equal. These rights were constructed by fallible human beings over two centuries ago. We know so much more now about human behavior and the actual brain damage that can be done to children's minds by the trauma of both physical and psychological abuse.

It's time to live in the 21st century.
 
I'm sorry if I didn't use good judgement in my post MyBelle. I don't want to be rude or come across as being rude to anyone. I will try and use more caution in the future.

The reason I have brought up the sermons, is because they were very enlightening to me on what goes on behind closed doors. I don't know what curriculum the family uses to home school, but part of their home schooling consists of these daily "sermons" by the father.

HS interprets the bible according to his own beliefs. He is the preacher in his own home. His home is his church and his congregation consists of his wife and children. I don't for a minute believe that his beliefs are commonly held by Southern Baptists.

My mother was a Southern Baptist as well as her family. Her family lived in Louisiana. I never once heard anything about chastening. There wasn't physical punishment in the family. My grandfathers second wife after my grandmother passed away, was a licensed nurse. There were also other licensed heath professionals in the family. When someone became ill, they sought medical treatment. I never once heard that illness is due to sin and if you were ill it was because you didn't pray hard enough or that a person isn't praying hard enough or in the right way, or they wouldn't be sick and that they just need to pray harder and the illness will be cured.

I never once heard preaching that all these things in the outside world are evil. There wasn't preaching in the home or any church that I attended, that came anywhere close to the paranoia that HS draws from his interpretation of the bible.

There is a difference between religious freedom and interpreting the Bible in ways that may be harmful to the health and well being of others. I don't consider a individual pulling out verses in the Bible, interpreting those verses in their own way to justify harmful actions as something that would fall under freedom of religion.

As children get older, they become more wise and they will call their parents out "if" their behavior is not acceptable. If there are multiple children speaking out as they get older, then I think it is a tad bit more than one making up allegations, because they didn't get their way.

HS states in his "sermons" that God talks to him and tells him what to do. He states that he follows God's word (his interpretation of God's word) and no one elses. "If" there is physical and/or emotional abuse in the home, I don't know how well this is going to turn out, if HS adheres to his beliefs that God is telling him what to do and every one that says different is wrong or evil.
 
I am curious how a youtube video of a cluttered messy home which is not the Stanley home has any bearing whatever on this case?
 
I am curious how a youtube video of a cluttered messy home which is not the Stanley home has any bearing whatever on this case?

Ha! I have cluttered messy home. I positively despair of any discrimination towards messy people. As a confirmed person with ADD, messy is my forte! :tantrum:
 
After all this time the state has had custody of these children, surely each child has been seen by one or more doctors, had all X-rays and tests to determine any old damages, and their health concerns are documented. Perhaps one delay is waiting on toxicology tests to see what their blood shows? Would MMS show up in a blood test? So the knowledge of the children's health should be answered. Therefore, I would think this issue may be one that can be dropped if nothing has turned up.

Education wise, the schools have had time to evaluate the children as to their performance on grade level. Another issue that should have been answered.

Behavior is more than likely better than most foster children. It sounds like they have been taught to walk a straight line at home. Away from home under these conditions, one or two may enjoy not being under the pressure and be lively like a child.

Just addressing the main issues, what is left beside the parents treatment of the children? My belief is the mother is blind sided by her older abusive husband. Her husband is the leader of the house and family, as the Bible says, and she follows. IMO

Now for the question as to WHY has this family been selected for government intervention when there are thousands of children in this state that live with drug or alcohol addicted people, violent people, little if any food, filthy homes, wear dirty clothes, seldom go to school, and are horribly abused? CPS files are over flowing with cases that are ignored.

Abuse is wrong! In the other areas, it appears this family has it together. Is there anyway of taking the father away as it appears he is the abuser? At his age, it will be almost impossible to change his mind on the way he believes. IMO
 
"Bring the Stanley..." Facebook site is reporting that the Stanley kids were allowed a visit home Friday for several hours for the purpose of worship with their parents.
 
I am glad that some form of family worship accommodation was able to be made to the satisfaction of authorities and the safety plan. This to me seems to indicate that authorities are trying to work with the parents and vice versa for the benefit of the family.
 
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