GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #4

[Dion]

It was reported by police that people (including family members) were in the house when Becky disappeared. So to me, that indicates that more than one person was there.

I'm pretty sure the family member was NM, but who was he with? Was he with SH or one of his friends? I think it more likely he was with SH as this was during the day, and his friends seem to have jobs.

They could easily have lured Becky out of the house, maybe by offering a ride to her bf house. I don't think Becky was killed there because if SH was there (and we don't know if she was) that would make her an accessory to murder. I think the initial kidnapping arrests fits in with them taking her from the house.

 

[Dion]

I wonder if NM had a key to the Galsworthy house?

If he managed to get Becky out of the house by offering her a lift to her bf, he may have returned later to retrieve the electronic equipment.

But there is still the situation about her not taking money or bank cards, so we don't know if she left the house willingly. You would think that if NM wanted to show that Becky left the house of her own accord, then he would have removed anything that she was likely to have taken with her. But I guess, he had other things on his mind at the time.

 

[gia2]

It was reported by police that people (including family members) were in the house when Becky disappeared. So to me, that indicates that more than one person was there.

I'm pretty sure the family member was NM, but who was he with? Was he with SH or one of his friends? I think it more likely he was with SH as this was during the day, and his friends seem to have jobs.

They could easily have lured Becky out of the house, maybe by offering a ride to her bf house. I don't think Becky was killed there because if SH was there (and we don't know if she was) that would make her an accessory to murder. I think the initial kidnapping arrests fits in with them taking her from the house.

Kidnapping doesn't just cover taking the victim somewhere against their will, it also covers false imprisonment. If police didn't have enough evidence to make arrests on murder charges, but did suspect NM and SH were involved in the disappearence of Becky and the home appeared to be a possible crime scene then kidnapping charges would have still allowed them to bring them in for questionning.

The home being a crime scene fits with Becky's father's remarks about blood. Becky accepting a lift is possible but I don't think it fits as well with what we know... not that we know much to form a good picture of events!

It really plays on my mind that Becky was so introverted and possibly had some anxiety problems (even if they have been played up in the media for whatever reason). I feel so sad she was fearful of the world and then this happened to her. People would have tried to make her feel more comfortable, telling her the world was safe and she'd be ok. Then it turns out she wasn't even safe with those closest to her, perhaps in her own home as well. Having been a teenager with severe anxiety problems, it really just gets to me. I can imagine this made her father feel more protective over her

 

[MamaJoJo]

Kidnapping doesn't just cover taking the victim somewhere against their will, it also covers false imprisonment. If police didn't have enough evidence to make arrests on murder charges, but did suspect NM and SH were involved in the disappearence of Becky and the home appeared to be a possible crime scene then kidnapping charges would have still allowed them to bring them in for questionning.

The home being a crime scene fits with Becky's father's remarks about blood. Becky accepting a lift is possible but I don't think it fits as well with what we know... not that we know much to form a good picture of events!

It really plays on my mind that Becky was so introverted and possibly had some anxiety problems (even if they have been played up in the media for whatever reason). I feel so sad she was fearful of the world and then this happened to her. People would have tried to make her feel more comfortable, telling her the world was safe and she'd be ok. Then it turns out she wasn't even safe with those closest to her, perhaps in her own home as well. Having been a teenager with severe anxiety problems, it really just gets to me. I can imagine this made her father feel more protective over her

BBM

Your post breaks my heart. Yes. This.

 

[Insp.Dots]

Whilst I dont disagree with this, in fact I can quite believe there was 96 hours ( or thereabouts ) of no comment responses ...then I do wonder how, at the same time, JP was vehemently denying any involvement. ( as stated by her solicitor ).

Yes, that made me pause for thought too. Also that his Family and long term friends say little things on BRISTOL POST and Police page that do make sense. I am not sure re a solictors advice. I imagine the solicitor could well have advised all to say no comment or little and then it would be down to police to provide more proof than just 'JP found bags and called police'. I keep wondering if the Crimewatch appeal may have pushed them to look in their gardens and sheds. I don't think it would come into my head to check my garden unless it was advised. Why would they before then, no one knew previously about state of any body or location.

 

[skibaboo]

BBM

Your post breaks my heart. Yes. This.

And mine too, I have some pretty nasty anxiety disorders myself and was very much like Becky as a teen too. That is why I didn't find the statements about shyness and not being able to pay for items in shops etc strange. I was just the same at that age, and to some extent I still am. It did make me wonder though as I didn't know I suffered anxiety until I was a lot older, being shy and introverted can be as a result of an anxiety disorder but you don't always know it when you first start to suffer the symptoms. There is usually a reason IMO, a trigger, nature/nurture, and I am curious as to what it may have been for Becky.

ETA: MamaJoJo, I don't know about you but Becky reminded me so much of Abby H, so pretty, introverted, demure in photos. If only.. Not that AH had the happiest of endings, but I was hoping for a safe return for Becky too, even when it seemed dire, privately I still hoped. 2 Girls who really got to my core, 2 different endings but I will never, ever forget either of them.

 

[Insp.Dots]

I also did not have the impression that the police were struggling to find owners - either past or present. We know from records ( thank you Skibaboo ! ) that the car had had only 2 previous owners before the current one ( which may or may not have been NM ), so I thought their reason for asking the 2 previous owners to come forward ( apart from the ones you have listed Jigzy re DNA, marks on car etc ) was because they had not been easily contactable ( had moved from the address that was registered with the DVLA perhaps ).
Or, it may have been to spread the net a bit wider and see if anyone else ( not an owner ) had any good knowledge re the car.
eg: perhaps they might have had other people come forward who had some knowledge of the history of the car, accidents, work done on it etc ...

This point re the car made me think of something else. We know that the car was placed in Wilton Close by at least Monday February 23 ( possibly earlier ). Assuming that NM drove it there, he would then likely need a lift back to his home.
So if - and it is only an IF - one of the other 4 had been the person who provided the lift back home, without knowing the real reason - would this not then raise another red flag to them when NM was arrested several days later ?

BBM Perhaps that is the reason for interest in the blue car at BC, maybe one of them used Mum's car to give him a lift and it has flagged some DNA or something, hence the deeper look?? Only a thought!:thinking:

 

[aneurin]

Kidnapping doesn't just cover taking the victim somewhere against their will, it also covers false imprisonment. ....

No it doesn't. You need to 'take and carry away' for kidnapping. False imprisonment is something different; you only need to show deprivation of 'freedom of movement'.

 

[Dion]

No it doesn't. You need to 'take and carry away' for kidnapping. False imprisonment is something different; you only need to show deprivation of 'freedom of movement'.

So can we assume that she was not killed at her home, but rather kidnapped and taken elsewhere?

 

[Cherwell]

So can we assume that she was not killed at her home, but rather kidnapped and taken elsewhere?

No one has been charged with kidnap, so there's no real reason now to think she was kidnapped. When the initial arrests were made, she was still missing, so it was a possibility.

 

[Dion]

No one has been charged with kidnap, so there's no real reason now to think she was kidnapped. When the initial arrests were made, she was still missing, so it was a possibility.

But the kidnapping arrests were later upgraded to murder, so it's understandable that they were eventually charged with murder and not just kidnapping.

There must have been some proof that she was taken from the house, to arrest them for kidnapping in the first place (IMO).

 

[Clio]

The disposal and concealment of body charge dates were "Between 22 February and 3 March".

If they don't have an exact time of death but they have evidence that she was dead by sometime on the 23rd then the indictment dates would run from midnight on the 22nd Feb to 3rd March when the remains were found.

The 23rd would coincide with the sighting of the Zafira near Wilton Close, Southmead. The Zafira was being examined by police around the same time on 28th Feb as NM/SH were first arrested. I am thinking that they initially found something in the Zafira which allowed them to arrest on suspicion of kidnapping (e.g BW's laptop and/or phone) but that there was also other evidence which required forensic analysis. Would 48 hours be enough time for forensic analysis results to come through in order to allow the rearrest for suspicion of murder of SH/NM at about 16:00 on 2nd?

Non of that tells us any more about where or when she died but might explain how the suspicion of kidnapping and suspicion of murder arrests came about.

 

[aneurin]

So can we assume that she was not killed at her home, but rather kidnapped and taken elsewhere?

No.

...There must have been some proof that she was taken from the house, to arrest them for kidnapping in the first place (IMO).

The would have been reasonable grounds for the suspicion of kidnapping.

 

[skibaboo]

'Becky touched the hearts of the nation'

Family of Becky Watts thankful for support

The family of Bristol teenager Becky Watts have told ITV News how hundreds of messages of support are helping them cope with the distress of 16-year-old's murder.

Speaking exclusively to ITV West Country, Becky's uncle, Sam Galsworthy, and grandfather, John Galsworthy, revealed they've been contacted by people from America, Canada, Australia and the Caribbean.

They were reacting after hundreds turned out in a park close to the family home to release balloons in Becky's memory.

The family have received more than £11,000 in donations towards funeral costs and are planning to support a walk for Becky through Bristol city centre on March 28 (11am start).

 

[Alyce]

No one has been charged with kidnap, so there's no real reason now to think she was kidnapped. When the initial arrests were made, she was still missing, so it was a possibility.

That would be my take on it. The police had enough suspicions/evidence by Saturday 28th to be able to make an arrest on suspicion of kidnap - what this was we can only guess. But by the Monday afternoon when they were able to progress the arrest to suspicion of murder, it would seem that they dropped the kidnap arrest, even before RWs body had been found. So clearly, they knew or heavily suspected by then that no kidnap had taken place.

 

[Insp.Dots]

I notice that the 22nd Feb start date for the potential period of offending corresponds with the date of the first police statement from Beesknees' earlier post, although she'd been missing for four days by that point.

Maybe nothing but it also corresponds with the date of car appeal.

 

[Kaly99]

The disposal and concealment of body charge dates were "Between 22 February and 3 March".

If they don't have an exact time of death but they have evidence that she was dead by sometime on the 23rd then the indictment dates would run from midnight on the 22nd Feb to 3rd March when the remains were found.

Based on the difference between the dates for the murder charge (19th Feb-3rd March, IIRC) and those for the disposal/concealment of the body (22nd Feb-3rd March), I took it to mean they had evidence the body didn't arrive at JP's house before the 22nd. That could be statements from NM or the four arrested. It seems fairly plausible that it would've taken NM a few days to decide what to do and to make contact with one of the four.

 

[Wallace]

Based on the difference between the dates for the murder charge (19th Feb-3rd March, IIRC) and those for the disposal/concealment of the body (22nd Feb-3rd March), I took it to mean they had evidence the body didn't arrive at JP's house before the 22nd. That could be statements from NM or the four arrested. It seems fairly plausible that it would've taken NM a few days to decide what to do and to make contact with one of the four.

Not sure too much can be read into the precision of the dates, there will be a buffer built in to ensure that they can't wiggle off the charges.

 

[k4kitty]

Not sure how much weight this can be given, but on the paper's FB page, from someone purporting to be a cousin of one of the 4 charged:

"But its not as clean cut as u think..The police have told us that we can't say anything as it may corrupt the case but my cousins didn't no she was lying dead in his bk garden"


Apologies if this is not allowed!

 

[Clio]

Based on the difference between the dates for the murder charge (19th Feb-3rd March, IIRC) and those for the disposal/concealment of the body (22nd Feb-3rd March), I took it to mean they had evidence the body didn't arrive at JP's house before the 22nd. That could be statements from NM or the four arrested. It seems fairly plausible that it would've taken NM a few days to decide what to do and to make contact with one of the four.

That’s possible but we have no facts available to be able to draw that conclusion. All we can infer at the moment is that the evidence they had at the time of charging indicated that she was dead by some point on the 23rd. There is no public information to say when, where or how she died. There is nothing publically available to say when the body was cut up or when parts were placed where they were found. Awful as it is, we don’t even know if they have found all of her yet. I am guessing there has been or will be a post mortem which may or may not provide a more accurate time of death.