JAR's semen on the blanket in a suitcase in the basement

[wenchie]

Now we've gone from someone saying they saw a guy who kinda looked like JAR walking up a hill nearby, to someone actually IDing him and seeing him enter the house?

 

[Guy_in_Georgia]

Now we've gone from someone saying they saw a guy who kinda looked like JAR walking up a hill nearby, to someone actually IDing him and seeing him enter the house?

The neighbor, I think the name is Barnhill stated they they saw someone who looked like JAR late in the afternoon on Christmas Day. Is that "IDing" him? Well, some law enforcement people would say that yes, that could be significant. The same way hearing a child scream late at night could indicate a problem.

 

[Guy_in_Georgia]

Now we've gone from someone saying they saw a guy who kinda looked like JAR walking up a hill nearby, to someone actually IDing him and seeing him enter the house?

I assumed that someone who appeared to the witness to be JAR walking up the hill toward the house would enter the house eventually.

Of course, his lawyer said that he was in Atlanta, which the police took to say that he couldn't be placed there that day.

 

[LoneDuck]

Well, some law enforcement people would say that yes, that could be significant. The same way hearing a child scream late at night could indicate a problem.

Barnhill stated the person looked like John Andrew. Five days ago some people here were convinced John Karr and John Andrew were of the same build - they obviously haven't seen pictures of John Andrew. Also, the neighbor who heard the scream later clarified the scream was the spirit leaving JonBenet's body so who knows what she actually heard?

 

[Roxye]

I don't know, reading the OP post made a light go off in head or something.

Before I actual post the theory I am working on though, I have a few questions. Hope you don't mind.

First, that semen of JAR's found on the blanket. Can it be determined how old that sample was?

The ticket stub doesn't sound like proof to me. Was there anything else that place JAR in Altlanta other then that?

Did they check to see if there were any finger prints on the suitcase? I know most solid (hard) suitcases have that textured surface, so prints would be easy to find on them. But the solid ones have the flat metal clasps usually. And if it was a cloth type of suitcase, then there is usual strips of leather across them right? Just seems there should have been finger prints on it somewhere.

Hmm I think those are the only questions I have right now. Might have a few more as I work this out in my head. I do appreciate your patience while I work it out. :waitasec:

 

[s_finch]

Hi all, I'm new here so please excuse any gaffs, but I've long wondered about JAR and I was glad to see this thread this a.m. About the suitcase, Patsy said in an interview (I'm not sure which one) that John didn't like to use hard suitcases on the plane, that he liked "soft" luggage so on the night of Dec. 25, 96, she went around putting items into trash bags. Trash bags??? All that money and they don't own "soft luggage"????????

s_finch

 

[Roxye]

Kinda have two different working theories going in my head. I'll start with one and go to the other later in a different post.

We have heard that PR and JR had pretty much stopped having sex because of her illness. JR wouldn't be the first man that turned to his daughter when his wife couldn't perform her 'wifely duties'. It's sick but it is very possible. I think it would probably be something he hadn't been doing until close to Christmas. And if it was something going on for a long period of time, he wasn't doing it often. PR wasn't aware of it. (To fit my working theory she couldn't have been.)

That night, it was Christmas. JR wanted a little treat. He snuck into his daughters room. Her room is far from the "master suite" so there is no fear of his wife hearing him. He goes in and starts to do his thing. JBR is awake but quiet. She knows that it will stop eventually and she loves her daddy, she loves her mommy. There is no clue what this man may have done to keep her quiet. Threats that mommy didn't love her anymore. Did he tell her she wouldn't be pretty to him anymore if she didn't let him touch her? I mean the day before she made the comment she "didn't feel pretty" right?

Anywhoo, somewhere in this PR wakes up. She goes looking for JR, thinking it is odd him being up so late since then have such a big day tomorrow. She searches the downstairs doesn't find him and thinks maybe one of the kids had a nightmare of something and he is putting them back to bed . (Ahh warm fuzzies)

She opens JBR door to find her husband touching her daughter and um, well, hmm, doing himself. She is instantly in a rage! Her first thought of course as a mother is OMG! I can not believe this man is touching my daughter. JR is shocked and terrified. He knows this is probably the end of his wonderful lifestyle. He is going to be jailed and shunned by his coworkers and family.

PR just tells him to get the hell out of here this instant. She goes to JBR, hugs her, tells her it is going to be alright. She takes her daughter into the bathroom to clean her up. Get this filth off of her body. She in enraged and all she can think about is making her daughter perfect again. Restoring her innocents. She strips her in the bathroom and start wiping her down. Cleaning the nasty off.

As she does this she gets more and more violent. She starts to think about how hard she has tried to keep their perfect life perfect. How hard she has tried all these years to please JR. How hard she works to keep his imagine perfect. Then she looks at her daughter and in this enraged state, she is not thinking clearly. She begins to imagine her daughter did this to her on purpose. She did this to get back at her because she didn't get what she wanted for Christmas.

JRB is sobbing and blubbering during all this. "I am sorry Mommy. Please don't be mad at me Mommy. Daddy, said I wouldn't be pretty anymore if I didn't let him. Please Mommy I'm so sorry." PR has finally had enough of her blubbering, she has told her to shut up but the child keeps going. PR smackes the child. This child who was already off balance, tettered sideways and cracked her head on the bathtub, the sink counter, the toilet bowl. Some hard surface. And instantly crumbles to the ground.

Ok, this is gonna end this particular working theory. Cause well, the rest is just staging. And that has been hashed over and over already.

Remember, I am true fence sitter. I have no clue if her parents are guilty or not. But something about this thread gave me an idea. And I have to say, it sound plausable.

Ho

 

[Camper]

You think that JAR got a pilot to risk crashing into another plane either in the air or on the runway, so that he could sneak into Colorado and kill his sister on Christmas night?

Ooooookay

--->>>IF IF IF a friend or a rich friend got a pilot friend to fly em/him to Colorado on Christmas afternoon, the friend of a friend of a pilot could most certainly have filed a flight plan for a round trip flight. Get em/him to CO then go back where he came from with his now empty plane and a pocket full of $$$$$$.

HOW could LE make the connection, supterfuge is a fine art, needed Columbo on this one.

I will ask my friend about flight plans. On Christmas NIGHT HOW many planes do you think would be flying, most folks would be sleeping. Risk would be minimal for an EXPERIENCED PRIVATE PILOT.

Remember the movie "Around The World in Eighty Days"? The song sung "Those Magnificent men in their flying machines, they go uppity up up and they go downy down down.

Columbo would not have given up, on the other hand Columbo never seems to have many encounters with expensive lawyers blocking his progress in solving his cases.

.

 

[LaMer]

It was proven that JAR was nowhere near Boulder at the time of the murder. He was completely cleared.

Who knows why one of his used sheets would be in a suitcase in the basement? The entire household appears to have been chaotic.

And we can be sure that when his semen was found on that sheet, it was thoroughly tested for any of Jonbenet's semen at the same time.

It's just another red herring.

One explanation for the suitcase/contents in my opinion:

Children played on occasion in the Ramsey basement. It wouldn't have be a stretch for one of them to have discovered the suitcase, and decided to put some items in there. Per the Dr. S book, then grabbed a 'dirty' sheet, which had been used when JAR had been visiting, from the laundry room and that might have been all there was to it.

My children love to fill/pull around my 'carry-on' luggage when they find it. I never know what I am going to find in there. LOL

 

[s_finch]

One explanation for the suitcase/contents in my opinion:

Children played on occasion in the Ramsey basement. It wouldn't have be a stretch for one of them to have discovered the suitcase, and decided to put some items in there. Per the Dr. S book, then grabbed a 'dirty' sheet, which had been used when JAR had been visiting, from the laundry room and that might have been all there was to it.

My children love to fill/pull around my 'carry-on' luggage when they find it. I never know what I am going to find in there. LOL

True that kids love to pack things in suitcases, but it was stated (not sure where, in some interviews) that JBR was afraid of the basement and never went down there. Burke and his friends went to the train room sometimes. Otherwise, only adults went down there.

 

[LaMer]

Burke and his friends went to the train room sometimes. Otherwise, only adults went down there.

Well, there ya go! I doubt their presence was only in 'one' room. Kids are kids!

Funny story, my granddaughters were visiting this summer, they are very young, the basement door was open, and the 5 1/2 year old said, "Ohhh (scared), what IS DOWN THERE?"

They live in FL where they don't have a basement!

She wasn't that frightened, she had to check it out.

 

[TLynn]

I wouldn't be so hard on the "Guy From Georgia" - JAR & Melinda were only cleared as a negotiation deal for the Ramseys to talk to the police. JR's plane hangars were never checked (John actually gloats about this in DOI). Also, in DOI, it talks about "games" the Ramsey's played with private planes....

JAR's semen was found on the blanket inside the suitcase, which JAR claimed the suitcase and all contents (including a Dr. Suess book) belonged to him.

JR's side of the family (JAR, Melinda & Ex-wife) were lawyered up immediately. Patsy's side of the family never was.

 

[DeDee]

The blue suitcase has always been a little odd. I personally never thought it had anything to do with the actual case. The contents are what? The blanket with seman, a pillow sham and a Cat In The Hat Book. Years ago, a theory surfaced that this book could possibly be used by a pedophile. I sort of poo pooed the idea myself. But it's an old suitcase, found in the basement. To me, it made more sense that it was down there for storage. After all, John Andrew had his own bedroom, and it's never been said that "the suitcase" was supposed to be anywhere other than where it was found.

And even though John Andrew had a room at his dad's home, he actually lived with his mother in Florida, I do believe.

IIRC, JAR lived one block over and several blocks up from the Ramsey's while attending the university. He visited his dad's home where a bedroom was maintained for him.

On Dec 25, Patsy was occupying JARs bedroom by packing suitcases for JBR & BR on his bed with the black coverlet. They were due to depart for the Big Red cruise quite soon after returning from Charlevoix. The children's suitcases were not nearly completely prepared for the Floridian trip.

It was John Ramsey, not Patsy Ramsey that wanted to go to Michigan to celebrate Christmas with his kids. Patsy was trying to pack summer clothes for their trip on the big RED Boat - to celebrate her birthday. The Michigan home had winter clothes in it - so no need to pack much there.
<respectfully snipped>

She sure didn't want to go to Charlevoix on the 26th. She did not want to host the Christmas Party on the 23rd and it appears Patsy was unprepared for her family to sail on the Big Red boat.

---------------------------------------------

BBM

If the suitcase was put there deliberately it most definately points to an inside job. How in the world would an intruder know that John Andrews seman is on the blanket? Which leads to the question - if it was put there as staging - was it the first thing they grabbed to sit under the window? Or did they know something more sinister about that suitcase and set it there deliberately?

So there are two scenerios. An intruder just happened to grap it and set it under the window to help him/herself back out of the house. Or it was staging by someone in the house and they either knew or didn't know it's contents.

After reading so much on this case throughout the years I think it was staging and it's contents were known.

The killer possibly knew JARs stuff was inside the suitcase but did not know his semen was on the bedding unless it was visible staining. Explaining fibers from inside the suitcase on JonBenet's clothing is a bit eerie.

John is questioned fairly extensively regarding the blue suitcase. JR states he was cleaning up the laundry area for the Christmas party earlier in the season on the 2nd floor. He moved the blue suitcase from this location on the 2nd floor laundry area down to the basement near the laundry room, iirc. Thereby implying an intruder moved the suitcase from this location to the window.

The presence of JARs sperm on his bedding along with a book written by Dr Seuss inside the suitcase indicate the items indeed belong to JAR, possibly from his bed at his other home up the street. Most likely, he was bringing the items home to wash. Maybe leave his book on the desk in his bedroom. Oh, the Places You Will Go! was quite popular for any age group. My daughter received 2 copies of it for graduating hs in 1994.

-----------------------------------------------

You still have to log your flight. You don't just get in a private plane and take off in secret.

• Private jets, depending on the jet's size and where they want to land, need to notify control tower. Private jets are routed to a specific area at airports for private jets opposed to commercial flights.
• Weight and weight distribution on an airplane is an important consideration. It would not be unusual to load the plane the day before.
  
• Two private pilots were required due to the length of the trip.

 

[UKGuy]

IIRC, JAR lived one block over and several blocks up from the Ramsey's while attending the university. He visited his dad's home where a bedroom was maintained for him.

On Dec 25, Patsy was occupying JARs bedroom by packing suitcases for JBR & BR on his bed with the black coverlet. They were due to depart for the Big Red cruise quite soon after returning from Charlevoix. The children's suitcases were not nearly completely prepared for the Floridian trip.

She sure didn't want to go to Charlevoix on the 26th. She did not want to host the Christmas Party on the 23rd and it appears Patsy was unprepared for her family to sail on the Big Red boat.

---------------------------------------------

BBM


The killer possibly knew JARs stuff was inside the suitcase but did not know his semen was on the bedding unless it was visible staining. Explaining fibers from inside the suitcase on JonBenet's clothing is a bit eerie.

John is questioned fairly extensively regarding the blue suitcase. JR states he was cleaning up the laundry area for the Christmas party earlier in the season on the 2nd floor. He moved the blue suitcase from this location on the 2nd floor laundry area down to the basement near the laundry room, iirc. Thereby implying an intruder moved the suitcase from this location to the window.

The presence of JARs sperm on his bedding along with a book written by Dr Seuss inside the suitcase indicate the items indeed belong to JAR, possibly from his bed at his other home up the street. Most likely, he was bringing the items home to wash. Maybe leave his book on the desk in his bedroom. Oh, the Places You Will Go! was quite popular for any age group. My daughter received 2 copies of it for graduating hs in 1994.

-----------------------------------------------

• Private jets, depending on the jet's size and where they want to land, need to notify control tower. Private jets are routed to a specific area at airports for private jets opposed to commercial flights.
• Weight and weight distribution on an airplane is an important consideration. It would not be unusual to load the plane the day before.
  
• Two private pilots were required due to the length of the trip.

DeDee,
I do not believe JR's explanation at all. How about the suitcase being loaded with forensic evidence from upstairs and used to carry it down to the basement, including the collection of JonBenet photos?

The killer possibly knew JARs stuff was inside the suitcase but did not know his semen was on the bedding unless it was visible staining.

Its possible that the semen stain is incidental, from a prior period in time. And that the Dr Seuss book actually belonged to JonBenet?

Remember JR's version of events where he read a story to JonBenet at her bedtime?

How about that being JR's version of events before they moved onto an abduction. Patsy had similar mistakes in her version of events, e.g. red turtleneck.

.

 

[DeDee]

DeDee,
I do not believe JR's explanation at all. How about the suitcase being loaded with forensic evidence from upstairs and used to carry it down to the basement, including the collection of JonBenet photos?


Its possible that the semen stain is incidental, from a prior period in time. And that the Dr Seuss book actually belonged to JonBenet?

Remember JR's version of events where he read a story to JonBenet at her bedtime?

How about that being JR's version of events before they moved onto an abduction. Patsy had similar mistakes in her version of events, e.g. red turtleneck.

.

Do we toss aside all of John's statements or just a few? What about for Patsy? Tis fine with me. They lied, misled, misinformed and were strangers to the truth.

Why would a father execute the murder of his daughter, or become implicated in another way, yet then leave the incriminating tell-tale signs of how the crime started with a blue duvet comforter, sham and a book in the basement near the wine cellar?

If it was JR who was digitally penetrating, why does he need to keep an incest kit handily stored in a blue Samsonite luggage equipped with the aforementioned items when he can simply lay beside his daughter in her bed? Perhaps while reading a book?

Why did ST give John Ramsey a pass?

FWIW, it is my understanding there is an inscription inside the Dr Seuss book meant for JAR. At his request, the title of the book has remained anonymous to protect the identity of the person who gave it to him initially. All of that could be fodder under the same circus tent.

How much weight can be placed on the group of photos to which is referred? Is there more than a mere reference during the interviews to photos and one, in particular, of JB doing something cutesy that the parents denied knowledge of? Was BPD able to identify the photographer of those shots discovered in the basement laundry room area?


Approximately, when did, according to the AR, the sexual abuse of JonBenet begin?

It appears that whomever struck JonBenet on the head was prepared, and did not need convincing, to kill her because the strangulation occurred anywhere from 10 to 60 minutes later.

What confirms, for us, that this death was an accident?

See, if Patsy adored her daughter as we have been led to believe by all accounts, how could she possibly sit to compose an almost 3 page kidnapping story only moments after her beloved daughter's brutal beating?

Patsy was dramatic but isn't the capability of writing the RN a stretch of her well-practiced talents only moments after placing tape on her dead daughter's mouth? If she is this doting, loving mother whose daughter just horrifically died, how can she see through the tears? And not be enraged? No matter who killed her daughter, her composure to write the RN moments immediately following JB's death and her deep abiding love for her is difficult to reconcile.

Couldn't the RN have been already written deep inside Patsy's writing tablet and torn out when needed?

 

[borndem]

The semen on a blanket in a suitcase found in the basment is VERY significant. The family was planning a trip out of town the morning of the 26th. I don't know about you, but our family and most of my friends always get our suitcases out and pack a few things the night before an early A.M. departure.

An intruder just happening to select that very suitcase out of many that you would think would be stored together in the basement?

Scenario:

The suitcase was one of many brought upstairs in preparation for the A.M. departure. A family member, while cleaning-up after discovering the murder put one of the incriminating pieces of evidence from the crime scene (the blanket) into one of the suitcases and brought it downstairs, perhaps planning to wash/dispose of it later. Then, a while later, after the intruder theory has been hatched, a different family member goes down into the basement and places that suitcase directly under the window to bolster an intruder theory.

The significant thing to remember about that night is that most of the suitcases may (I say may) have already been brought upstairs in preparation for the trip, and that particular suitcase was the only large one down there.

That may be the only mistake the conspirator and/or murderer made that night, one that points directly to the family.

Good observation, Guy, and one more thang,

:seeya:Welcome to Websleuths!!:seeya:
:drumroll:Guy_in_Georgia:drumroll:

We're pleased as peaches you're here!

Keep those comments coming!
​

 

[cherisa]

Good observation, Guy, and one more thang,

:seeya:Welcome to Websleuths!!:seeya:
:drumroll:Guy_in_Georgia:drumroll:

We're pleased as peaches you're here!

Keep those comments coming!
​

Why would you give him a welcome when the op was from August of 2006? Just wondering:slap:hoh:

 

[UKGuy]

Do we toss aside all of John's statements or just a few? What about for Patsy? Tis fine with me. They lied, misled, misinformed and were strangers to the truth.

Why would a father execute the murder of his daughter, or become implicated in another way, yet then leave the incriminating tell-tale signs of how the crime started with a blue duvet comforter, sham and a book in the basement near the wine cellar?

If it was JR who was digitally penetrating, why does he need to keep an incest kit handily stored in a blue Samsonite luggage equipped with the aforementioned items when he can simply lay beside his daughter in her bed? Perhaps while reading a book?

Why did ST give John Ramsey a pass?

FWIW, it is my understanding there is an inscription inside the Dr Seuss book meant for JAR. At his request, the title of the book has remained anonymous to protect the identity of the person who gave it to him initially. All of that could be fodder under the same circus tent.

How much weight can be placed on the group of photos to which is referred? Is there more than a mere reference during the interviews to photos and one, in particular, of JB doing something cutesy that the parents denied knowledge of? Was BPD able to identify the photographer of those shots discovered in the basement laundry room area?


Approximately, when did, according to the AR, the sexual abuse of JonBenet begin?

It appears that whomever struck JonBenet on the head was prepared, and did not need convincing, to kill her because the strangulation occurred anywhere from 10 to 60 minutes later.

What confirms, for us, that this death was an accident?

See, if Patsy adored her daughter as we have been led to believe by all accounts, how could she possibly sit to compose an almost 3 page kidnapping story only moments after her beloved daughter's brutal beating?

Patsy was dramatic but isn't the capability of writing the RN a stretch of her well-practiced talents only moments after placing tape on her dead daughter's mouth? If she is this doting, loving mother whose daughter just horrifically died, how can she see through the tears? And not be enraged? No matter who killed her daughter, her composure to write the RN moments immediately following JB's death and her deep abiding love for her is difficult to reconcile.

Couldn't the RN have been already written deep inside Patsy's writing tablet and torn out when needed?

DeDee,

Do we toss aside all of John's statements or just a few? What about for Patsy? Tis fine with me. They lied, misled, misinformed and were strangers to the truth.

Much of what they said was contradicted by themselves on multiple occassions.

If it was JR who was digitally penetrating, why does he need to keep an incest kit handily stored in a blue Samsonite luggage equipped with the aforementioned items when he can simply lay beside his daughter in her bed? Perhaps while reading a book?

Who said anything about JR. Maybe reading from that specific book was part of a prior staging, which was abandoned once they realized they would be arrested?

FWIW, it is my understanding there is an inscription inside the Dr Seuss book meant for JAR. At his request, the title of the book has remained anonymous to protect the identity of the person who gave it to him initially. All of that could be fodder under the same circus tent.

Who knows what the facts are, maybe it was JAR's, but its use in the crime either as staging or commission meant it had to be removed?

Approximately, when did, according to the AR, the sexual abuse of JonBenet begin?

That night 12/25/1996 and some recent previous day due to the healing of prior injuries.

It appears that whomever struck JonBenet on the head was prepared, and did not need convincing, to kill her because the strangulation occurred anywhere from 10 to 60 minutes later.

JR might have whacked JOnBenet on the head fully intending to kill her, this after BR allegedly molested and constricted JonBenet's vagus nerve resulting in her falling into a coma, later PR finishes JonBenet off with the ligature? These separate events explain the time gap and her injuries.

What confirms, for us, that this death was an accident?

Absolutely nothing. JonBenet was denied medical assistance, someone wanted her dead!

See, if Patsy adored her daughter as we have been led to believe by all accounts, how could she possibly sit to compose an almost 3 page kidnapping story only moments after her beloved daughter's brutal beating?

Well its either write the RN or offer some other explanation why JonBenet has been sexually assaulted and ligature strangled to death, with no apparent evidence of an intruder.

Patsy was dramatic but isn't the capability of writing the RN a stretch of her well-practiced talents only moments after placing tape on her dead daughter's mouth? If she is this doting, loving mother whose daughter just horrifically died, how can she see through the tears? And not be enraged? No matter who killed her daughter, her composure to write the RN moments immediately following JB's death and her deep abiding love for her is difficult to reconcile.

Whatever requires reconciliation does not detract from the facts, which all point to Ramsey collusion in the commission of JonBenet's death and subsequent staging, even BR is implicated via touch-dna and his revision regarding whether he was asleep that morning or present at the 911 call?

Couldn't the RN have been already written deep inside Patsy's writing tablet and torn out when needed?

That would suggest premediatation, anyway there was more than one attempt made to author the RN.

.

 

[DeeDee249]

FW admitted he was the one who put the suitcase under the window when he bent down to look at the pieces of broken glass from the window. He placed a shard of glass on top of the suitcase.

 

[icedtea4me]

See, if Patsy adored her daughter as we have been led to believe by all accounts, how could she possibly sit to compose an almost 3 page kidnapping story only moments after her beloved daughter's brutal beating?

Patsy was dramatic but isn't the capability of writing the RN a stretch of her well-practiced talents only moments after placing tape on her dead daughter's mouth? If she is this doting, loving mother whose daughter just horrifically died, how can she see through the tears? And not be enraged? No matter who killed her daughter, her composure to write the RN moments immediately following JB's death and her deep abiding love for her is difficult to reconcile.

Why do you think that note had to have been written immediately after JonBenet's death?