NV NV - Wellington, WhtMale 574UMNV, 35-50, off Sand Canyon Road, Mar'92 - #1

[LaLaw2000]

In thinking about it, I am not so sure the t-shirt origin is so important. It could have been picked up in any state, IMO, and might not mean a thing. However, Oklahoma is American Indian territory and could easily have come from there. I honestly don't know why I feel it is of American Indian connotation, but I do. I'm saying Oklahoma because the vehicle was from there and I feel our UID is connected to that vehicle.

*Blanket. I just don't know if that was a moving blanket/quilt or not. Most moving blankets/quilts will have chevron stitching and will be clean if used by professional moving companies. Even if you rent a U-Haul and pay extra for moving blankets/quilts, (moved a piano so I rented the blankets/quilts also) you still have to turn the blankets/quilts back in when you return the truck. The blankets/quilts are usually gray in color and not multi-colored. Could this possibly have been a homemade quilt?

Our UID male could have possibly have come along with someone who was moving to the area? Maybe helped paint an apartment or house and used the blanket/quilt as a drop cloth? There are a couple of details I need to go back and look at in the initial reporting of this man.

BBL

 

[searcher8621]

UID is in Namus with one rule out, Douglas Meer:

https://identifyus.org/cases/7582

these are the circumstances as stated by Namus:

Anonymous male contacted Nevada Highway Patrol on 03/12/92 @ 1700 regarding skeletal remains of a human being. Due to daylight, Law Enforcement found remains at 1130 hours on 03/12/92. Shallow grave found near the remains. Bone fragments found as far as 75 feet from remains. Animal activity noted. Hands and feet were missing. Foul play suspected.

I would think a shallow grave would not imply death by natural causes. I wonder if they had any conclusions as to whether the hands and feet were hacked off or if they felt that was animal activity?

sadly with no fingerprints and no DNA they can only match on dentals.

Was the question of why their were no hands and feet answered? If there were bone fragments found and animal activity noted, would that indicate that animals had removed them? Also, would it be possible to know if the remains were ever IN the grave and animals brought it out? Were the clothes and the tarp secured in some way so they wouldn't blow away?

 

[Miss Muffet]

So unless we know for sure that the feet and hands were "cut off" it's hard to know what type of perpetrator we're dealing with.

Even though we've had no confirmation on the feet and hands being cut off, I'm going with logic. It's too much of a coincidence for all four to be missing. Since LE clearly searched the area up to a mile away, I'm betting they would have found at least one hand or foot bone somewhere if animals were involved.

A shallow grave implies to me an inadequate tool for digging or inadequate time (or both).

Have you ever dug a hole? I've done a lot of serious digging in my life. I've dug graves for pets, and we bury them deep to prevent animals from unearthing them. I helped dig up our sewer line and our foundation---both more than six feet deep. I'm also an avid gardener.

There is NO WAY even a shallow grave can be dug with a crow bar. It's just impossible. I wouldn't be able to plant a tree or bush with a crowbar. At the very least, he'd need a hand gardening shovel, but that would be a difficult dig in the desert. And that involves planning too because I bet very few people happen to have hand gardening shovels on hand in their vehicles.

I'm certain it's rocky digging in that area. Check out this picture that came up in google search for Wellington, NV. When you see rocks lined around property, that's because the rocks were encountered while digging, and the owner needed somewhere to put the rocks. The same goes for areas in New England where you see all those stone walls surrounding pastures.

Even if it's not rocky there, you'd need a way to move the earth, and a crowbar isn't going to move earth from one spot to another to create a hole and pile of dirt. Then how do you move it all back on top of the body into the grave with a crowbar? You can't.

I challenge anyone who thinks this is possible to go get a crowbar and start digging a hole in your yards.

 

[searcher8621]

Miss Muffet, I like your logic regarding loss of hands and feet - so no bones in area from either of those would indicate what you say!!

 

[Miss Muffet]

In thinking about it, I am not so sure the t-shirt origin is so important. It could have been picked up in any state, IMO, and might not mean a thing. However, Oklahoma is American Indian territory and could easily have come from there. I honestly don't know why I feel it is of American Indian connotation, but I do. I'm saying Oklahoma because the vehicle was from there and I feel our UID is connected to that vehicle.

There's American Indian territory right near where the body was found. The Walker River Indian Reservation is less than two hours away. If I understand correctly where the body was located, it was between Wellington and the Reservation. There are quite a few other reservations in that part of the state as well.

 

[Miss Muffet]

Miss Muffet, I like your logic regarding loss of hands and feet - so no bones in area from either of those would indicate what you say!!

This is why I feel it was a planned murder. At the very least, it was a planned disposal of the body. If he was killed accidently or in a fit of rage (which I doubt), the killer still had to plan cutting off those hands and feet when deciding how to dispose of the body. If he's going to the trouble of doing that before disposing of the body, I'll bet he bothered to take a shovel with him too.

As for the location of the burial, I think the killer wasn't from the area. Someone from the area would know this burial location wasn't remote enough. To an outsider, I'll bet it looked very remote and unlikely someone would find the body. Unless the killer was more concerned with just getting the body off of a reservation since complications between law enforcement agencies can make investigations more difficult to solve cases.

 

[carbuff]

Yes, as you described it, it looks like a quilted moving blanket of multi-colors. There is paint "over-spray" and paint drops on one side of the blanket.

Would that be something we could get a picture of?

 

[Miss Muffet]

Miss Muffet, I like your logic regarding loss of hands and feet - so no bones in area from either of those would indicate what you say!!

On further thought, it may possible animals eat the smaller bones of the hands and feet. I'm basing this on my experience with my dogs getting into the kitchen garbage can. Even if animals eat the smaller bones, I still think at least one hand or foot bone would have been found.

But we're getting into a whole area of google searching I don't want in my google history. LOL

The detectives remaining silent on this point indicates it's more likely the hands and feet were cut off.

 

[Sleuthster]

What if it where someone in witness protection? Just a thought since there have been cases where the mafia have cut off someone's hands who was an informant in the past. If anything it definitely makes me think it is mob related.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

The shoes aren't a big mystery to me. The ones LE found don't have to be involved. The victim's shoes were likely cut off with his feet and disposed of wherever the hands and feet were discarded. They're probably in a landfill somewhere.

Even though we've had no confirmation on the feet and hands being cut off, I'm going with logic. It's too much of a coincidence for all four to be missing. Since LE clearly searched the area up to a mile away, I'm betting they would have found at least one hand or foot bone somewhere if animals were involved.

To me, though, I just don't see the logic of removing the victim's socks, leaving them at the scene, putting the shoes or boots back on, then hacking off the feet. Also, one of the socks was only partially there. Which leads me to think that possibly at least the feet were ravaged by animals. Feet and hands are the extremities, and made up of smaller bones, so I can see these parts of the body deteriorating and coming loose faster. (Ugh, what a topic, sorry.) So for me, it's not at all inconceivable that over several months time one or more animals may have made off with some of these lighter body parts. And...that's all I'm going to say about that disagreeable topic.

Have you ever dug a hole? I've done a lot of serious digging in my life. I've dug graves for pets, and we bury them deep to prevent animals from unearthing them. I helped dig up our sewer line and our foundation---both more than six feet deep. I'm also an avid gardener.

Yes, I've dug a hole or two in my lifetime, along with my husband who is in the architecture/construction business. We live on acreage, we built our house (hands on as well as with contractors) and its 2 outbuildings (hands on), we garden, we've buried pets, I've dug post holes for fencing, etc. Any more qualifications needed?

There is NO WAY even a shallow grave can be dug with a crow bar. It's just impossible. I wouldn't be able to plant a tree or bush with a crowbar. At the very least, he'd need a hand gardening shovel, but that would be a difficult dig in the desert. And that involves planning too because I bet very few people happen to have hand gardening shovels on hand.

I think we'll probably just have to agree to disagree, here. I'm not saying it couldn't have been premeditated; but until I hear that that blanket/quilt was also blood stained, I am keeping an open mind that our victim could have been killed in the desert, and buried poorly by hand using crowbar or other crude tool to break up the earth, rocky as it might be. (We haven't been given the dimensions of what has been briefly described as a 'shallow grave' nor have we even determined for sure that the body ever made it into one.)

Even if it's not rocky there, you'd need a way to move the earth, and a crowbar isn't going to move earth from one spot to another to create a hole and pile of dirt. Then how do you move it all back on top of the body into the grave with a crowbar? You can't.

I challenge anyone who thinks this is possible to go get a crowbar and start digging a hole in your yards.

Lol, we live on solid limestone with a layer of about 6 inches of rocky dirt on top. Sometimes I think a crowbar would be the only effective tool to break up the earth enough to dig a hole. (We garden in raised beds.) In any case, anything that could be broken up with a crowbar could also be pushed back with human hands to cover a body, given enough determination. And murderers can be very determined, especially if operating in a hidden and remote area. From the sound of it, though, it doesn't sound like the body was buried very deep or very well (if it was buried at all).

 

[Sleuthster]

gambling debt? Card counter/cheater? Sounds mob related to me. Not sure about the feet though. Was the ME able to tell if they where cut off pre or post mortem?

 

[wenwe4]

Honestly, I think the hands and feet were not removed by the killer. It makes no sense to me to take the time to hack off those but not remove the head (with dentals) or that could be recognized if found early enough.

I spent a lot of time in the morbid science of bone scattering by animals in the Casey Anthony trial (which can be found on WS if anyone wants to delve in). The forensics in that case had computer graphics that showed exactly the terrain of the area, how far the bones were scattered from the original dump site, where the specific bones were, and how the disarticlation of skeletal remains happens when animals are working their "magic". IIRC The hands, feet and wrists are made up of such tiny little bones that many of them are never recovered. There was an entire scientific explanation of how far animals carry larger parts vs smaller, etc and typically how far they are taken from the dump site.

I guess it would be much more importance to me if I knew that the hands and feet were removed other than animals. It's not relevant to finding the identity (other than I saw a few that only footprints and toenails were available but not dentals on the missing list - but I think they can still get dna from the nails). I think it would be extremely relevant to charging the perpetrator and the criminal case. (but I am not a LEO Detective)

JMO

 

[Sleuthster]

They should be able to tell during the autopsy whether this occurred from animal activity or a cutting object. I'm not positive because of the time that the remains where out there if they could tell if the hands and feet where removed purposely if it was done after the person was deceased.

 

[Miss Muffet]

Honestly, I think the hands and feet were not removed by the killer. It makes no sense to me to take the time to hack off those but not remove the head (with dentals) or that could be recognized if found early enough.

I spent a lot of time in the morbid science of bone scattering by animals in the Casey Anthony trial (which can be found on WS if anyone wants to delve in). The forensics in that case had computer graphics that showed exactly the terrain of the area, how far the bones were scattered from the original dump site, where the specific bones were, and how the disarticlation of skeletal remains happens when animals are working their "magic". IIRC The hands, feet and wrists are made up of such tiny little bones that many of them are never recovered. There was an entire scientific explanation of how far animals carry larger parts vs smaller, etc and typically how far they are taken from the dump site.

I guess it would be much more importance to me if I knew that the hands and feet were removed other than animals. It's not relevant to finding the identity (other than I saw a few that only footprints and toenails were available but not dentals on the missing list - but I think they can still get dna from the nails). I think it would be extremely relevant to charging the perpetrator and the criminal case. (but I am not a LEO Detective)

I concede to you knowing more about scattered bones than I do.

Missing hands and feet are relevant to hiding identity because I read the majority of bodies are identified via fingerprints. The head not being cut off could be why there are 8 missing teeth--to make identification via dental records more difficult.

I really think the detectives' silence on this point indicates the hands and feet were purposely removed. They'd have no reason to keep it a secret that the hands and feet were likely eaten by animals.

 

[wenwe4]

Wenwee, I think the alphabetical list is good enough. I doubt the detectives need a numeric list. I see no reason for you to go to twice the trouble of creating two lists.

Thank you so much for making the list!

Detectives, Do you want me to keep up the numerical? (I have to keep one minimally at least to keep up with the numbering system for entries submitted) The only reason I have done that is if you are going through the list by the order they are submitted - it might be confusing as to which ones you have already looked at every time the alphabetical one gets updated.

Which ever way is really no problem - just wanting to be the most helpful. I am also trying to include info about dentals or dna (from here on out) on the list just for a quick glance to see which ones you want to rule out right away.

 

[LaLaw2000]

Anywhere there are casinos, there are transient people. The casino workers can come from all over the country, IMO. Many go from one state to the next working for a while before moving on. They are the higher income workers. There is a high turnover in apartment and house rentals.

One thing that strikes me is the newspaper real estate section and the moving blanket/quilt with paint on it. Could this guy have been a painter? So many painters use the sprayers now because it is more expedient. What color was the paint on the blanket/quilt? Could it have been interior wall paint? Was it artists paint? Would love to see a pic of it as well as the shoes. Was there any paint on the clothing or shoes?

Until Ms. Muffet's post, I thought the hands and feet could be disarticulation. Now I think they must have been cut. BUT there was a half of a sock and a full sock in the area of the body. If there were no hand or foot bones, then where did this happen?

I must admit I have absolutely no clue as to who this might be. The only thing I am inclined to believe is that this UID man may be from Oklahoma where the vehicle is from. Was the vehicle reported stolen? I just don't remember having read that information.

The only thing I do know for certain is that I would like for this man to be identified and returned to any remaining family for a proper burial at 'home'. It is so very sad there are so many unidentified.

MOO

 

[Soulmagent]

Was the caller a male or female?

I am thinking two people placed the body and used two different cars. If the shoes were taken by animals in an attempt to get a loose foot, bite marks and claws marks would be seen on the shoes and most likely decomposition fluid staining. Does the area flash flood at all? The shoes were said to be to small for the person wearing them so if that person was the victim it is not likely the foot would be easy for the animal to get. A foot in a shoe can be the last part of the body to decompose. If he was wrapped in a moving blanket it is likely the murder would remove shoes ,as that would make them easier to conceal and a guy who is 6 foot something probably had pretty big shoes ,making the body harder to wrap in the blanket and even if they managed it ,it would have looked very much like a body in a blanket.

Not a theory just some thoughts.

ETA can you tell us what part of Oklahoma the car was last registered?

 

[wenwe4]

If the skeletal remains show the victim was stabbed - there has to be evidence of the stabbing into the bone. They know the dimensions of the point of the weapon and I guess the deepness of the wound would be entirely dependent on how thin the victim was.

He was at the very least in a shallow grave. There was an attempt to dig it deep enough - maybe they gave up and just deposited the wrapped body or covered the body with the blanket. It is not known what was used to dig the hole as any evidence of that would most assuredly would have weathered away by the time the body was found.

I wonder if local regional hospital records could be reviewed for anyone seeking medical care for major hand cuts in the previous 4 - 14 months. Often the blood will make the knife slippery and the killers hand will slide down the blade.

 

[Steleheart]

To me, though, I just don't see the logic of removing the victim's socks, leaving them at the scene, putting the shoes or boots back on, then hacking off the feet. Also, one of the socks was only partially there. Which leads me to think that possibly at least the feet were ravaged by animals. Feet and hands are the extremities, and made up of smaller bones, so I can see these parts of the body deteriorating and coming loose faster. (Ugh, what a topic, sorry.) So for me, it's not at all inconceivable that over several months time one or more animals may have made off with some of these lighter body parts. And...that's all I'm going to say about that disagreeable topic.

RSBM / BBM:
Lots of material, thoughts and ideas flying by in this thread, but I wanted to say that I agree with this. I have broached the topic and given that we do not have the details of whether the extremities were removed by tools or by post mortem animal activity and normal disarticulation, then we are left to our own devices, LOL.

As you say, the small bones of the hands and feet are the ones likely to be more readily deteriorated and come loose. Those are also more easily chewed, splintered, scattered and gnawed by small rodents. I have never found a bone in the woods that was not chewed to some degree. Thus far those finds range from moose antlers, an entire moose skeleton, various deer, birds, fox and on down to a field mouse skull.

I remember reading that bone fragments were found within 75 (feet?) of the remains. Nothing else was noted as missing AFAIK. Even 1 .5 socks were recovered. On that point is it interesting to note that even on my own property, if I have left a rag out in the woods or the yard, even under the snow, much of it will be gone by spring. Meeces and birds love to unravel and tear up fabrics left out in the weather for nesting and what not.

I realize this is disagreeable on it's face but it is vital to the forensics team that supports the work of these detectives. For me, the notion that my dog, foxes or other canids are gaining life from my bones after the fact is far less disagreeable than the idea that some scum bag went driving off with my shoes while I lay there with a sucking chest wound.

The actions and decisions of certain intelligent humans is far more disagreeable to me than that of most wildlife, so I apologize if I made anyone queasy.

:cow:.

 

[carbuff]

While we're on the queasy ground...the other thing that can happen to smaller parts is that they get carried away by carrion birds. If it's taken back to a nest to feed the young, it could be miles away.