VA - Anjelica "AJ" Hadsell, 18, Norfolk, 3 March 2015 #16

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Do we know that she wanted that? I mean from AJ? TIA Just not quite understanding your comment

I wasn't implying that that's what she wanted. The post I was commenting on was making seem like WH being her father was written in stone, and I was just clearing the air to the fact that she could have had him removed as her father if she ever wanted. Of course she would not be able to do that now at this point. I understand.

My apologies, I read your comment correctly (and no, nowhere did you imply him being legally her parent makes him a good guy) I just replied in anger because this whole case just sort of does that to me.

Ontario Mom: I know what you mean. These cases can get to you. Sometimes you have to just step back a bit.
 
I don't really care what they put in the obit, except this... sisters, Justice Hoffer and Grace Hoffer! FACT!
 
If we are going to explore other possible suspects, I think Margarita's awareness space article is crucial to deciding the next likeliest suspect.
http://www.boulderweekly.com/articl...ss-lsawareness-spacers-may-lead-to-clues.html

The two locations we know for certain are AJ's home and the house in Southampton. According to geographic profiling/awareness space, the perp will be very familiar with these locations. Familiar enough that they are comfortable being there and that they would be undisturbed as they go about the "business."

We are lucky in that these places are so distant from each other that many people are unlikely just to happen to know both places intimately. Looking at AJ's circle, the next best suspect may be someone WH works with, if he was working on a big project in Franklin that required multiple individuals.

Another possible avenue, though it might be more of a stretch is someone who is familiar with both VA and NC, since the location found was close to the border. There does happen to be such an individual within the circle.

would also have to be somebody who knew AJ was home from college which back ups your idea that it would most likely be somebody within AJ's family/friend circle: familiar with both properties, AJ's school schedule & familiar enough to not stick out to neighbors or witnesses. Did any other family members do jobs with WH to make extra cash? A friend of mine will do side plumbing jobs (even though he mainly does film/photo work) to make money off the books. An electrician friend of mine will bring extra hands for off the books if they are short a few guys or have a big job with a short deadline. Family or close friends are usually called in. Just an idea to work off your thoughts.
 
I am truly at a loss for words when it comes to this case. A beautiful girl lost her life and now the lives of so many will forever be affected. I no longer feel as safe as I did in this neighborhood. Some has to do with AJ some just has to do with the changing of the neighborhood. I know I don't post a lot but I have read every post and I run it all through my head and I still come to my same conclusion. Time will tell I hope as to just what exactly happened but until then, I hug my child even tighter, tell them I love em every chance I get and remind them to keep in touch and let me know what they are doing and who they are with. May justice be swift for AJ.
 
would also have to be somebody who knew AJ was home from college which back ups your idea that it would most likely be somebody within AJ's family/friend circle: familiar with both properties, AJ's school schedule & familiar enough to not stick out to neighbors or witnesses. Did any other family members do jobs with WH to make extra cash? A friend of mine will do side plumbing jobs (even though he mainly does film/photo work) to make money off the books. An electrician friend of mine will bring extra hands for off the books if they are short a few guys or have a big job with a short deadline. Family or close friends are usually called in. Just an idea to work off your thoughts.

Good point. I'll start a list.

Suspect must:
1. have familiarity with and not stick out in AJ's neighborhood.
2. have familiarity with Southampton house location and/or route through area to NC
3. know AJ was home that week.

Suspect may:
1. work with WH.
2. have access to blue/black van.
 
would also have to be somebody who knew AJ was home from college which back ups your idea that it would most likely be somebody within AJ's family/friend circle: familiar with both properties, AJ's school schedule & familiar enough to not stick out to neighbors or witnesses. Did any other family members do jobs with WH to make extra cash? A friend of mine will do side plumbing jobs (even though he mainly does film/photo work) to make money off the books. An electrician friend of mine will bring extra hands for off the books if they are short a few guys or have a big job with a short deadline. Family or close friends are usually called in. Just an idea to work off your thoughts.
I've wondered this before. WH could have been the helper to someone else after the fact. JMO IYKWIM
 
In their defense, the two young women who planned the softball game originally set it up as a fundraiser in support of #bringajhome a couple of weeks ago. So it was already well in the works when AJ was found and then it was transformed into a memorial game/burial expense fundraiser.

I want so badly to not get the heebie jeebies over the memorial fund. However, the original fund was not a memorial fund but one for searches.

The family was not doing any searches. So they were collecting money this entire time for expenses related to finding AJ, but never actually planning or doing any of that. Weird.

I really hope I am wrong. I just do not want any of that money to go to the Hadsell family pockets, especially not WH for his legal fees. Especially not if he is charged with any crimes related to AJ's death.

I would not actually mind if any of it went to her siblings or even her mom, who regardless of how we may feel about her life decisions, I believe is truly grieving and not involved.

I just do not trust anyone from WH's side of the family. It would be such a huge slap in the face if that money was used for him.

Of course, I hope my concerns are off base. I would love to be wrong about people if my opinions are negative.

MOO
 
O/T For anyone that is interested, Jodi Arias just got sentenced to LWOP!
 
If we are going to explore other possible suspects, I think Margarita's awareness space article is crucial to deciding the next likeliest suspect.
http://www.boulderweekly.com/articl...ss-lsawareness-spacers-may-lead-to-clues.html

The two locations we know for certain are AJ's home and the house in Southampton. According to geographic profiling/awareness space, the perp will be very familiar with these locations. Familiar enough that they are comfortable being there and that they would be undisturbed as they go about the "business."

We are lucky in that these places are so distant from each other that many people are unlikely just to happen to know both places intimately. Looking at AJ's circle, the next best suspect may be someone WH works with, if he was working on a big project in Franklin that required multiple individuals.

Another possible avenue, though it might be more of a stretch is someone who is familiar with both VA and NC, since the location found was close to the border. There does happen to be such an individual within the circle.

Thank you for passing on the link. I'm a little familiar with Jessica's case but the "awareness space" article is excellent information in general. I passed over it before but I'm reading it now.

It feels good to step away from WH for a bit and think about alternative perps and scenarios. I'll be back after I've finished reading...
 
I want so badly to not get the heebie jeebies over the memorial fund. However, the original fund was not a memorial fund but one for searches.

The family was not doing any searches. So they were collecting money this entire time for expenses related to finding AJ, but never actually planning or doing any of that. Weird.

I really hope I am wrong. I just do not want any of that money to go to the Hadsell family pockets, especially not WH for his legal fees. Especially not if he is charged with any crimes related to AJ's death.

I would not actually mind if any of it went to her siblings or even her mom, who regardless of how we may feel about her life decisions, I believe is truly grieving and not involved.

I just do not trust anyone from WH's side of the family. It would be such a huge slap in the face if that money was used for him.

Of course, I hope my concerns are off base. I would love to be wrong about people if my opinions are negative.

MOO

I am also concerned it may end up in TM's 'missing person's organization'.
 
I've wondered this before. WH could have been the helper to someone else after the fact. JMO IYKWIM

I've wondered. Nothing about what I'm going to say is meant negatively towards AJ. She was an adult woman who was free to do what she chose. I could see WH gladly facilitating a relationship between AJ and somebody HE knows (versus being ok with her dating somebody he wasn't directly connected to).. It would be yet another way for him to feel in control of AJ.. Maybe she was breaking it off with said person because of WH & JH separation--or any reason like affiliation with WH drug use -- and things went badly from there. I could see WH swooping in and taking care of the situation to feel like the important and in-control guy he wants to be. MOO just trying to explore different routes since I've so obviously planted my feet in one direction and I'm not so sure we're going to get answers soon.
 
I want so badly to not get the heebie jeebies over the memorial fund. However, the original fund was not a memorial fund but one for searches.

The family was not doing any searches. So they were collecting money this entire time for expenses related to finding AJ, but never actually planning or doing any of that. Weird.

I really hope I am wrong. I just do not want any of that money to go to the Hadsell family pockets, especially not WH for his legal fees. Especially not if he is charged with any crimes related to AJ's death.

I would not actually mind if any of it went to her siblings or even her mom, who regardless of how we may feel about her life decisions, I believe is truly grieving and not involved.

I just do not trust anyone from WH's side of the family. It would be such a huge slap in the face if that money was used for him.

Of course, I hope my concerns are off base. I would love to be wrong about people if my opinions are negative.

MOO
I agree. I posted in the last thread how victim's families can get up to $25k in assistance in Va for funeral costs, lost wages, counseling, etc. Giving the family the benefit of the doubt, perhaps their victim's advocate neglected to inform them of this. If so, I do hope someone who is in contact with them would let them know. If they do know, then I feel it is very disingenuous to ask for people to contribute to the costs.
 
I want so badly to not get the heebie jeebies over the memorial fund. However, the original fund was not a memorial fund but one for searches.

The family was not doing any searches. So they were collecting money this entire time for expenses related to finding AJ, but never actually planning or doing any of that. Weird.

I really hope I am wrong. I just do not want any of that money to go to the Hadsell family pockets, especially not WH for his legal fees. Especially not if he is charged with any crimes related to AJ's death.

I would not actually mind if any of it went to her siblings or even her mom, who regardless of how we may feel about her life decisions, I believe is truly grieving and not involved.

I just do not trust anyone from WH's side of the family. It would be such a huge slap in the face if that money was used for him.

Of course, I hope my concerns are off base. I would love to be wrong about people if my opinions are negative.

MOO

I've been worried about this too. IMO there needs to be complete transparency with this particular situation because they have muddied a lot of the truth so far. If they used the money for WH's legal fees could people ask for money back or ask for details on what the funds are being used for? I would be livid and I hope this doesn't happen!
 
Thank you SO much for the reminder! I didn't want to miss it but had completely forgotten until I saw your post!!

You're so welcome. I figured some of us were a little preoccupied. I didn't remember until last night.

LWOP for Jodi Arias is what I had dared not hope for, but the judge came through. Thank you Judge Stephens.
:tyou:

May the Alexander's begin the never-ending healing process. They deserve applause for the way they have handled themselves. An example for all victim's families.

:grouphug:

A special thank you to prosecutor Juan Martinez. :loveyou:
 
Recently, to try to maintain some objectivity, I have analyzed the behavior of the main cast of characters. I wanted to try to find plausible reasons why certain actions were done, and perhaps why I might be focusing too much on one outcome.

The one thing I keep thinking that helps me come to a basic understanding of the H family's behavior is the 5 stages of grief. Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance are the typical stages one goes through when experiencing grief or loss. They do not occur in any particular order and certainly can be experienced differently from one person to the next.

It would appear they have been cycling through the first four and unable to reach acceptance. Honestly, maintaining the bare minimum of what is considered sane in a situation like this must be difficult. Their daughter missing, the denial about the eventual outcome and who might be responsible appeared to be constantly with them. While WH seemed certain something bad happened, the rest seemed less inclined to entertain that thought.

Anger towards those who would question the family's behavior was one of the more obvious stages exhibited. Examples are seen in JH's public outrage with WTKR, KH's interview on GMA blasting police, friends of AJ in constant social media battles, and WH's distain towards those who would question his past and his reckless manner of accusing others.

Avoiding feelings of helplessness and vulnerability while trying to maintain control are linked to the bargaining phase. In an odd way, WH's b&e could be seen as a way to try and take control. "I'll find who took her, I'll bring her home." The fundraising and constant posting of other missing person flyers fit here as well. "I'll help others and perhaps I'll be rewarded with a positive outcome."

And finally comes depression. I would imagine it is the buffer between the other 3 stages in this case. Anger brings Despair...which brings Denial...which brings more despair...which brings bargaining and so on in no particular order.

This is my opinion. Honestly I am not sold on what I just wrote, but I wanted a counter argument to the theory that most of us subscribe to. I was not seeing a viable explanation in any posts so I challenged myself to find a legitimate way to explain lots of questionable behavior. Not everyone is brought up in a supportive and nurturing environment that can help a person to cultivate the mental strength required to experience these stages in a healthy manner. That variable makes it (at the very least) possible that all this weird behavior is just a family trying to grieve.

http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-5-stages-of-loss-and-grief/000617

For the sake of brevity I focused on their behavior prior to AJ being found and left out his sister entirely.

I know something about what you are referencing here. My own daughter, Suzanna, has been missing for over a year and a half. In terms of the cycle recycling, it is quite ongoing. The two missing cases I have followed here are this one and the Christina Morris case. I have focused more on the Christina Morris case because I live in Texas and my daughter went missing in Dallas. I have sometimes wondered if there could possibly be a connection because my daughter went missing around Labor Day, the year before Christina Morris did, and they were both very active in the club scene. AJ's disappearance and this sad outcome are fairly recent. Christina's mother is named Jonni, and I have seen her on television many times.

What is clear to me is that how long a child is missing makes a difference. Having a missing child is extremely exhausting (especially emotionally) and the longer it goes on, the more exhausting it is. Intially, when my daughter went missing, I did not realize that she was really missing. The man she had been living with was very duplicitous with me. Eventually however, what became my dominant emotion was sheer terror. Even if I could contain it during much of the day, it would come back at me at night in my dreams. Some mornings, immediately when I awakened, upon remembering she was dead, the crying jags would start. Sometimes they went on much of the day as I could get no help from the police, who did not take me seriously at all. My daughter is/was not a conventional person and she does/did not fit into their conventional criteria of caring. I never felt more like a non-person than when I tried to get the police to care about her.

I really do not think you can get over much of the pain of having someone go missing, even when that person is found. One of my friends lost her daughter to murder and it changed her utterly. She had to check herself into a mental hospital to keep from killing herself.

In these threads, I see people who judge the way that people grieve, and who go back and second guess the things that people should or should not have done who has a child missing. I have such empathy for AJ's family. We are all human; we all err; and there is no one right way to feel or act when you have a missing child. Even if there were an exact formula, I doubt that most people would be able to easily follow it. The shock, the confusion, and the uncertainty are too overwhelming.

When I was a victim advocate, I began to understand that some of the things that we said were like little bandaids on a gaping wound. "It is not your fault." (But people want to believe that all the right choices can be made in advance!) "You are safe now" or "it is over." (Not with this crime.) This crime is different. Every single parental misstep, no matter how minor it may seem to those would comfort you, comes back and haunts you. There is never just one closure to seek. It goes on and on.

We like to think everything can be healed. When we are children, our parents say: "Let me kiss that hurt and make it better." When we grow up, we realize that the real human tragedies are not at all like skinned knees.

So, I don't think it is that the cycles of grief don't apply, but just that they cannot really get started and completed. That would mean that closure (a body found or a child found alive) would start them. It ought to. But the reverberations of that time of terror go on and on. Who did this? How did they do it? Why did they do it? The trial and the utter loss of innocence if the guilty party was someone trusted. Alternatively, should the child be found alive? Why did you do this? Why couldn't you call me? How can I help you now?

I am very sorry for this family and I am especially sorry that the person responsible seems to have been someone that they all knew and that many of them may still want to trust and believe.
 
Good point. I'll start a list.

Suspect must:
1. have familiarity with and not stick out in AJ's neighborhood.
2. have familiarity with Southampton house location and/or route through area to NC
3. know AJ was home that week.

Suspect may:
1. work with WH.
2. have access to blue/black van.

Do we know of anyone that meets these criteria who may spend a lot of time in Murfreesboro, NC? A yes or no would be enough, since we cannot name suspects not named as such in MSM. But the house sits on a relatively direct route from Norfolk to Murfreesboro. That's the closest logical destination along that route.
 
I want so badly to not get the heebie jeebies over the memorial fund. However, the original fund was not a memorial fund but one for searches.

The family was not doing any searches. So they were collecting money this entire time for expenses related to finding AJ, but never actually planning or doing any of that. Weird.

I really hope I am wrong. I just do not want any of that money to go to the Hadsell family pockets, especially not WH for his legal fees. Especially not if he is charged with any crimes related to AJ's death.

I would not actually mind if any of it went to her siblings or even her mom, who regardless of how we may feel about her life decisions, I believe is truly grieving and not involved.

I just do not trust anyone from WH's side of the family. It would be such a huge slap in the face if that money was used for him.

Of course, I hope my concerns are off base. I would love to be wrong about people if my opinions are negative.

MOO

To put it simply, don't question your instincts. How many cases have we all been on? And how often do we collectively feel that something is OFF when it comes to funding and family motivations and behavior? I would say sometimes, but it's usually justified. It isn't like we aren't used to seeing how grieving families react in crisis. And how often do we support the victim's family? Almost always, unless there is significant reason not to, IMO. And finally, how often do we ever feel this disgusted over and over regarding the family's behavior? I've been reading WS for 7 yrs and haven't seen a circus such as this one yet (Casey Anthony comes close though!) The answers will come in time, and this will all make sense. The majority of us here feel that something isn't right within the family. Our differing opinions seem not to be regarding whether something is or isn't right, but rather, what exactly is causing this to be so wrong.

As a recent benchmark, look at Hannah Graham's family. Now look at AJ's.
 
With all due respect, there is nothing thus far to indicate they distorted or withheld any information about anything you mentioned above to law enforcement.

This family was enduring one of the most stressful events imaginable. They were damned by the missing person enthusiast community no matter what they did. That's a terrible shame. I expect LE to advise the families & friends of missing persons to remove all social media and refuse all media requests in the not-too-distant future. I would personally recommend that now. Very little good comes from the overwhelming majority of sleuthing and amateur investigative efforts.

ETA: Note how very little information was released by Norfolk PD. More & more frequently, you will find that this will be the case.

It's a sad truth about society today: we all want to be (and feel we have some right to be) voyeurs of others' lives. The more they give us, the more we demand, all in the name of "justice for" whomever. All too frequently, we end up casting stones at these imperfect victim/survivors, perhaps as a subconscious way of reassuring ourselves that a crime like this could never happen to someone we care about, or maybe it's an excuse for our rush to uninformed judgments without all of the facts of a case.

Yes, it is interesting to discuss these cases.
Yes, we are all entitled to form opinions and express them.
Yes, we have more information sooner, but often much of it is extraneous and irrelevant.

JMO

With all due respect there is NOTHING to indicate they did not distort the facts, from the beginning of this case their has been a time discrepancy that started with those closest to AJ. I know you haven't followed along from the beginning or read the threads, but it would be very helpful if you did then you could clearly see the information that came out from those closest to her just isn't what it seems. I will not be listing them out because they can all be found clearly in the first 1 or 2 threads, just got to do some reading.

Also it has been stated by numerous people whom I believe are verified (their jobs) that if the suspect is close to the family, law enforcement will withhold information as long as possible. Take that with a grain of salt. But that is why I feel law enforcement didn't release information, they already knew who did it, and didn't need any help.

May I ask who your suspect is, please don't give names, random perp or friend she knew, would be a fine description. You seem to consider every possibility but WH being the perp and I can't get past him to find anyone else to even consider, and that's my thing...
 
I was watching the recent you tube video tribute to AJ, beautiful pictures which really shows her spirit. What struck me was all the pictures with her family, but I didn't see one picture of WH included . I also believe I saw a picture of ZH with AJ which made me really happy. It was 2:10 into the tribute. I think it was ZH. It seems whoever did this tribute specifically did not include WH. I watched it twice and didn't see him. It's on thread 14, page 37, # 924 the link for the tribute. So, I don't feel the same person put that together that wrote the obit. If JH did the tribute video then it's possible another " spokesperson" did the obit. It's almost like it was a message in the video not to include any pictures of WH and AJ. If I am wrong I stand corrected.
 
I am also concerned it may end up in TM's 'missing person's organization'.

that thought gave me the shivers :/

I agree. I posted in the last thread how victim's families can get up to $25k in assistance in Va for funeral costs, lost wages, counseling, etc. Giving the family the benefit of the doubt, perhaps their victim's advocate neglected to inform them of this. If so, I do hope someone who is in contact with them would let them know. If they do know, then I feel it is very disingenuous to ask for people to contribute to the costs.

I would feel pretty horrible for them if they were not informed of that. The whole point of having a VA is to make the process a lot easier on people who are in a sensitive state. I have a feeling if it was brought up to some of them, though, the reply would just be snarky (sorry, I switch back and forth from trying to be compassionate to distrust).

I've been worried about this too. IMO there needs to be complete transparency with this particular situation because they have muddied a lot of the truth so far. If they used the money for WH's legal fees could people ask for money back or ask for details on what the funds are being used for? I would be livid and I hope this doesn't happen!

I think there is a possibility they could be sued for fraud by people who contributed to the fund. I don't have any legal background, though, so I am not sure what the laws on that are. But I feel like collecting money for a specific cause, then using it for something completely different could constitute fraud.
Of course, to be fair, maybe they are just incredibly naïve when it comes to the law and do not understand that. Nonetheless, that doesn't particularly matter when it comes to the law; they could still possibly be sued, I think...
 
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