MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #3 *INDICTMENT*

[SStarr33]

I wonder if Goodson stepped on the gas when he got the call that assistance was needed with Donta Allen. Maybe that is when FG got injured?

Do those vans have lights and sirens?

 

[kimmera]

I wonder if Goodson stepped on the gas when he got the call that assistance was needed with Donta Allen. Maybe that is when FG got injured?

Do those vans have lights and sirens?

I have wondered this as well...and perhaps he made a hard stop at some point, not on purpose but to avoid hitting someone...

 

[kimmera]

Boytwnmom-- can you discuss possible severing (or not) of the six officers' trials? If the charges proceed, that is.

She did discuss this on the previous page. Check post #279.

 

[K_Z]

Thank you, kimmera. I missed that post when catching up. Boytwnmom, thank you, as well for your answer. Seems there are benefits and drawbacks to both sever and joinder.

This will be interesting to watch play out. At a minimum, I think a completely new prosecutor is necessary.

(Embarrassed I missed boytwnmom's informative post on my first pass. My apologies!) :blushing:

 

[K_Z]

Look at how much crime has gone down over the years. Putting these people in jail has been very good for our country.

I agree. I'm a strong supporter of "broken windows" policing. Most especially in areas with high rates of other crimes such as drugs, robbery, murder, and other violent crimes. It is the only thing that works, IMO.

 

[kimmera]

I am not sure if this has been discussed previously. I apologize if it has, but Officer Eddie Nero was a certified EMT in NJ. http://http://www.courierpostonline.com/story/news/local/south-jersey/2015/05/01/baltimore-police-officer-new-jersey-ties/26727383/ IMO, this helps his defense. Even if not certified and practicing in MD, his training would certainly lend itself to his ability to assess if immediate medical attention was needed. He was a volunteer firefighter as well. This young man has put his tail on the line serving the public since he was a teenager. MOO.

 

[ShadyLady]

I agree. I'm a strong supporter of "broken windows" policing. Most especially in areas with high rates of other crimes such as drugs, robbery, murder, and other violent crimes. It is the only thing that works, IMO.

I think law abiding citizens have a right to live in a neighborhoods that are free from petty thieves and drug dealers in alleys, whether they be black, white, yellow, red, pink or blue. It can be a thankless job when arrests are made and the perpetrators are released the next day. Who benefits? Where does the drug money end up?

I won't demonize LE until I see evidence that an officer did something intentionally wrong. As, for protecting drug addicts from society, we need to come up with something better than pouring more money into the inner city neighborhoods. Obviously, that has not solved anything except make a few people rich.

Should there be areas where drug use is allowed? Legally, and freely? Don't know but what we are doing as a society does not seem to be working. And LE is caught in the middle. imo.

 

[Curious Guy]

Based on what Ive seen of the case, I certainly hope so. Justice is not being served if these mens lives and careers are ruined as part of a political witch hunt.

<modsnip>

This. So much this.

 

[CARIIS]

Hi all, old timer here. I haven't posted in a few years, but I wanted to add to this thread. I am a native Baltimorean so this case is of great interest to me. A couple of things:

I don't know if this info has been posted before, but these officers did what is called a 'Terry stop'. Here is a link explaining what that is, and why FG's 4th amendment rights were not violated: http://http://definitions.uslegal.com/t/terry-stop/ The spokesperson for the police even referred to it this way in a local newscast. The police are allowed to briefly detain and do a limited search on individuals in areas of high crime activity without rising to the level of 'probable cause'. They need only 'reasonable suspicion' which they got when FG took off running as soon as he saw them, particularly as a known, convicted drug dealer in a very crime-ridden area. Whether you personally agree with this or not is a moot point, IMO, since the courts upheld it in 1968. Under the rules of a 'Terry stop' the police can search for and make an arrest for an illegal weapon.

I am repeatedly seeing incredulity that the police said that FG's arrest was without incident when he ended up dead. AFAIK, the term 'arrest' refers to the actual apprehension of the individual, as opposed to what may have happened during the transport, which would be referred to as 'in custody'. When whatever happened to FG happened, he was in custody. His arrest had already taken place, and since we have video and still shots of him standing and moving around on his own, to my eye it would appear to be without incident as well.

As far as Lt. Rice goes, he is not the one that is charged with murder. The manslaughter charge, as far as I know, relates to the (arguably) illegal arrest and subsequent false imprisonment, as well as the denial of medical treatment to FG. While the incident(s) outlined in the Guardian articles are certainly egregious and alarming, there has been no evidence released that he has done anything unprofessional relating to his duties as a police officer. Plus we have no idea what the follow up with the department was. Perhaps he had to medically cleared by a mental health professional and is subject to ongoing counseling as a condition to keep his job. My point is, WE DON'T KNOW. I would think that if this info, however sensational and tabloid worthy, is germane to the FG situation, it will come out at trial and we will learn more then.

I personally feel that all of the officers were overcharged and many of the charges will never go to trial. I do think that Goodson will be found guilty of some sort of negligence, and I also believe that he may be guilty of that, but I also think that it will be a tough row to hoe to prove murder when no one has been able to say exactly what happened to FG. If I were a juror I don't think that I could find someone guilty of a crime that carries a possible 30 year sentence if I wasn't sure of exactly what happened to him. It will be interesting to see the ME report(s) when they finally come out. I have thought about the osteoporosis/lead poisoning angle as well as others have here. If he did have it, then I don't see how the police can be held responsible for his neck being in a weakened state as they had no way to know that. I would think that they would only be required to do what a 'reasonable and prudent' person in their position would do under the law.

I am also reserving judgement until the video showing the 'secret stop' comes out. Do we know for sure that FG was seen during that stop? I had not seen anything other than a shop owner took the video...

At any rate, it is an interesting and sad case all around. I tend to be very pro-LE, so I am trying to be as unbiased as I can be in forming opinions about the case. Not to mention, so very little about the actual facts has been released. JMO, and all that jazz...:twocents:

Nice post - all we have to do is hope all of us are still alive when it runs its way through the endless dance -ugh gonna be a mess--- look at how off track media has it at this point and nothing has started! Years.............................................

 

[kimmera]

Thanks. I think we are all a little frustrated that so little real, verifiable info has come out. Lots of rumors and anonymous this and that. I think that all citizens should be held accountable for their actions, whether civilians or police but the police have the right to due process also. It's also hard not to let our own personal experiences color our opinions. Like everybody else, I want the truth, but at the same time I do not want these officers to be the sacrificial lambs for every police brutality victim across the nation if they are not actually guilty.

I have to say though, this prosecutor is seeming a little shady to me. The whole connection to Billy Murphy and then both of them denying he had represented her just recently seems a little hinky to me. That, and the whole Jayne Miller thing. Very interesting...I hope Mosby gets removed frankly. MOO, as always.

 

[KEVINinTO]

An interesting detail has emerged regarding the transport van. It has been described as being divided into two compartments. In fact the van has three separate compartments!

The smallest compartment is located right behind the front passenger seat. The occupant of this compartment is visible to the driver. You can see in this screen grab the door to access this compartment (behind the passenger door).

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/150430175753-t1-freddie-gray-police-van-tablet-large.png

The largest compartment is on the left side of the van and it runs the full length. This is where Donta Allen was placed. Occupants of this compartment are visible to the driver of the van.

FG was placed in the second smallest compartment in the rear right hand side of the van. Occupants of this compartment are not visible to the driver (reportedly there is a CCTV camera in this compartment but it was not working). Not only can the driver not see the occupant of this third compartment - it would also be more difficult to hear any occupant because it is separated by the smallest compartment.

You can see in this this picture how the van is divided into three compartments (note the compartment FG was in does not run the full length of the van).

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-rough-ride-and-police-culture/391538/

The configuration of the van will have a major bearing on this case IMO. The charges against the driver assert that he was negligent in summoning medical care for FG but as we can see - because of th design of the van it was not possible for the driver to see FG from inside his cab and it would have been more difficult for the driver to hear FG. The only way the driver could check on FG's condition was to stop the van and open up the rear compartment which he did do more than once (which proves the driver was concerned for FG's welfare).

 

[BirdycatNY]

I think law abiding citizens have a right to live in a neighborhoods that are free from petty thieves and drug dealers in alleys, whether they be black, white, yellow, red, pink or blue. It can be a thankless job when arrests are made and the perpetrators are released the next day. Who benefits? Where does the drug money end up?

I won't demonize LE until I see evidence that an officer did something intentionally wrong. As, for protecting drug addicts from society, we need to come up with something better than pouring more money into the inner city neighborhoods. Obviously, that has not solved anything except make a few people rich.

Should there be areas where drug use is allowed? Legally, and freely? Don't know but what we are doing as a society does not seem to be working. And LE is caught in the middle. imo.

Slightly O/T, but I totally agree, not only should citizens have the right to live in safe neighborhoods and move about safely, law-abiding citizens should be DEMANDING that our communities are safe and livable at any time of the day/night.

It is not fair to communities that have to live in neighborhoods where regular shootings occur, drug dealing, prostitution, sexual assaults etc. that's not livable, it's madness. If you want to see an example of a city where criminal enterprises plus government/law enforcement corruption corrode and put a strangle hold on a city, look no further than Naples Italy (See PBS special on Naples, Italy (Frontline) Camorra Mafia - http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/italy801/).

Law-abiding communities need to start taking their neighborhoods back and not letting criminal enterprises take over, personally I do not want any city in the US becoming like Naples, Italy corruption/crime. Why are law-abiding citizens getting the brunt of it and being harmed by criminals out and about and corrupt individuals benefit? It's just so nonsensical and sad, jmo.

 

[SStarr33]

Most police vans in Baltimore region lack seat belts

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ma...tbelts-police-vans-20150508-story.html#page=1

 

[Wysteria]

I just kind of assume that even if these are bad cops they would at least yell "stop" at some point in the chase. They obviously weren't planing on running an endurance race to see who was the best runner. And Freddie had to know they were cops.

Why would they not yell "stop"?

I think that it is extremely unlikely that they did not shout "stop".
Why wouldn't they?
First of all it is common sense and secondly it is safer for all parties involved. for the officers' do to so.
I may be wrong, I've been wrong about lots of things, but I can't imagine a reason that they would not, as I said it does not make sense (common sense).

 

[EllieBee]

This. So much this.

Nobody is praising FG.

But six police officers ARE charged in his death.

And until we hear otherwise, there is no reason to believe these charges are false.
Why are people so intent on finding ways to insist LE is not reponsible when plenty of evidence and CHARGES suggest they are?

Yes, a trial will be the deciding factor. But c'mon. Why are some people on a mission to insist LE is innocent of any wrongdoing? WS is supposed to be victim-friendly.

If, after a trial, the LEOs are found not guilty, then, that is another story.

There are bad people in every walk of life. LE is no exception. <modsnip>

 

[ShadyLady]

Nobody is praising FG.

But six police officers ARE charged in his death.

And until we hear otherwise, there is no reason to believe these charges are false.
Why are people so intent on finding ways to insist LE is not reponsible when plenty of evidence and CHARGES suggest they are?

Yes, a trial will be the deciding factor. But c'mon. Why are some people on a mission to insist LE is innocent of any wrongdoing? WS is supposed to be victim-friendly.

If, after a trial, the LEOs are found not guilty, then, that is another story.

There are bad people in every walk of life. LE is no exception. <modsnip>

The problem, is that I see plenty of evidence their arrest was political. Even so, I will wait for the trial to make a final judgement. But, Mosley should step aside, now.

 

[BirdycatNY]

Nobody is praising FG.

But six police officers ARE charged in his death.

And until we hear otherwise, there is no reason to believe these charges are false.
Why are people so intent on finding ways to insist LE is not reponsible when plenty of evidence and CHARGES suggest they are?

Yes, a trial will be the deciding factor. But c'mon. Why are some people on a mission to insist LE is innocent of any wrongdoing? WS is supposed to be victim-friendly.

If, after a trial, the LEOs are found not guilty, then, that is another story.

There are bad people in every walk of life. LE is no exception. <modsnip>

It's easy for some to equate/mistaken Freddie Gray's death with murder. There are not enough facts/evidence available to determine guilt, Ms. Mosby hasn't even presented anything at a preliminary hearing for PC, no GJ proceedings and so far no trial by jury. As a matter of fact, there is very little factual information available publicly. Police Officers are entitled to the same 5th and 6th amendment and other rights as any other citizen accused of wrong doing. If any of these LE officers committed the crimes of which they are accused, then of course they should be held accountable. But just because a prosecutor is charging them, does not make them guilty of the crimes. Facts and evidence beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury does. Respectfully, Jmo of course.

 

[Wysteria]

Based on what Ive seen of the case, I certainly hope so. Justice is not being served if these mens lives and careers are ruined as part of a political witch hunt.

<modsnip>

This post right here for me, says it all.
Thank you.

 

[katydid23]

Nobody is praising FG.

But six police officers ARE charged in his death.

And until we hear otherwise, there is no reason to believe these charges are false.
Why are people so intent on finding ways to insist LE is not reponsible when plenty of evidence and CHARGES suggest they are?

Yes, a trial will be the deciding factor. But c'mon. Why are some people on a mission to insist LE is innocent of any wrongdoing? WS is supposed to be victim-friendly.

If, after a trial, the LEOs are found not guilty, then, that is another story.

There are bad people in every walk of life. LE is no exception. <modsnip>

You say there is 'there is no reason to believe these charges are false. '

I see several reasons some of the charges are false. For example, I believe it was an illegal knife. That wipes out several charges right off the top. Also, I believe that the victim had long term medical issues which weakened his bones. So it did not take that much force to injure him, imo. I also believe the dispatch audio, which is all over the net, will show that the driver DID call for medical help. So I don't see a case for depraved/indifferent murder.

You say : Why are some people on a mission to insist LE is innocent of any wrongdoing? WS is supposed to be victim-friendly.
I do feel like I am on a mission/. But it is NOT to insist that LE is innocent of ANY wrongdoing. I am on a mission to rebut this public witch hunt, which is tarring ALL LE with false accusations of brutality, imo. WS is both victim friendly and cop friendly.

You say : If, after a trial, the LEOs are found not guilty, then, that is another story.

And I am saying that it is unfair to charge someone with such horrendous charges without a lot of solid evidence. And I do not see that yet, nor do I see a lot of time and care taken to investigate so far. And I see a whole lot of political BS surrounding the SA as she spoke.

You say: [I]There are bad people in every walk of life. LE is no exception.

THIS ^^^ I totally agreed with. I know that to be true.
[/I]


<modsnip>

 

[Peliman]

WTH, Mosby was on stage??????

LOL, she clearly DOES NOT get it.

I hadn't read that far..

Hey she's a rockstar. I was blinded by watching clips of woodstock tonight.