IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #36

[TedMac]

I'm sure most of you have seen this video trending on SM, but I thought I'd put it here for those who haven't. It was a social experiment about just how easy it is to get a child to go with a stranger - right in front of a parent. While I do know that there are critics stating this is fear mongering amongst parents, I think the experiment itself proves that it's much easier than some parents want to believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGIDHrYKJ2s

The parents reactions are a true testament that no matter WHAT we tell our children, if someone doesn't LOOK the part of a "stranger" or "bad guy", the reality is, children aren't innate to fear amongst other humans (particularly adults). If they've grown up in an environment where adults are trust worthy, helpful, and loving people - naturally they don't have warning bells or a gut instinct that produces fear.
There are children who have, in one way or another, been wronged by an adult. I think THOSE children are far more apt to fear another adult speaking to them, or coming near them - with or without a parent in eye sight. They KNOW what adults are capable of. But thank goodness, MOST of our children don't live in a world where every adult (stranger or not) is someone to be feared.
Why? Because a lot of parents (including myself) don't WANT to raise my kids to be fearful of every single person they don't know. That is no way to live a life. I don't WANT my children to think that every man who says hello is a dirty old man who wants to abduct and rape them. What a horrific fear to put into a child.

But finding that balance between what is safe and what is not is where so many of us parents struggle. It's impossible to teach your children who to fear when the majority of sexual assaults/molestation etc. happen with people whom they've grown up with, are relatives, or people their parents and families know and trust.

Unfortunately, this is why I feel that LE may potentially have this one backwards as far as who all needs to be deeply investigated. I have a feeling that Lyric would be MORE apt to be a little more "schooled" in the world of what adults are capable of. Elizabeth may not. Maybe Lyric went along because Elizabeth "knew" this person, even though she herself didn't. Maybe she felt something was off...wanted to stick with Lizzy to "protect" her, but didn't say anything because Lizzy "knew" this person and went more than willingly, so she followed.

I agree that children do/have done some things that would make their parents cringe if they knew. However, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on what you see in the video. Notice that the kids displayed appear to be 4-6 years old. Lyric was 10 and there is a huge difference in a 5 year-old and a 10 year-old. I admit that there are some very naive children, but having worked for 3 years as a substitute teacher I can tell you that 5th graders-even those in rural areas are very much aware of things and more "street smarter" than I ever was at that age. Girls are especially aware of their surroundings and who is looking at them. Lizzy may have been very trusting and "never met a stranger", but it would have been very difficult for a complete stranger to trick Lyric with a puppy or any sort of ruse like that. I am not disagreeing that they didn't go willingly with their abductor, but I feel it was someone that one of them or both of them knew or some sort of authority figure (someone in a police uniform, etc.) they would have trusted. If a stranger was involved, they most likely presented a weapon and forced them in the killer's vehicle.

All of the above is MOO.

 

[Aymstriss]

Like most women of "a certain age" (i.e., older than dirt), I have worked in hostile work environments. I know how stressful it is, and how difficult it can be to question a superior or to offer suggestions. I have no idea how it works in a police department, but I wonder if Smock negatively impacted the investigation into Lyric and Lizzy's abduction/murders.

The knowledge that he maintains a Facebook friendship with Heather Collins seems questionable to me. I am not accusing Heather of anything, I am just using this as an example of Smock's lack of objectivity. JMO.

I just wanted to grab a quote talking about Smock and the investigation..

From my understanding with a few "insiders" the DCI and FBI were handling the investigation. They would inform Smock of the investigation as a "courtesy".

The article right after Smock stepped down as fire chief and took a long vacation is BS....he spun that to make himself look good. Not the case.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

IIRC, in the NG transcript with MCM and WC, when the girls had not come home by 12:30 p.m., WC and her grandson left the Collins' home to look for them. In that transcript, (paraphrasing), WC says because the father had come home.

At that time, I had wondered if DC had come home for lunch or if someone had contacted him about the girls missing.

imo

I (think) I remember that! He was due to come home about that time because Wylma had an appointment and was planning to leave by around 1 pm and they weren't sure how long Heather's medical appointment would take.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I think a church member, a school employee, a parent's or sibling's friend, or even a cashier at the local store could also be someone a child would be familiar with and not consider a stranger. JMO.

Your mentioning a cashier made something pop up in my mind. I think most people these days use debit/credit cards for most transactions, so more than ever cashiers get to know people's names. I put that together with the fact that if you see someone in one environment, it's often difficult to recognise them somewhere completely different, particularly if they usually wear some sort of uniform.

I think if someone who looked familiar approached Elizabeth and/or Lyric and said "Heather (or Drew) asked me to bring you girls home because your sister is sick; just leave your bikes, we'll come back for them later" the two girls would probably have hopped right into the vehicle with them without even realising that person was actually a stranger. Because how can someone be a stranger if they know your parent by name??!!!

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Just to clarify - it's the Wapsi, not the Cedar that runs through the park.

Also, in my videos I took of Seven Bridges for my Websleuths friends, you will see that while filming I notice, and even mention deer cams at the site of where their bodies were found. So yes, when I went there, there were cameras up, overlooking the site. I didn't bother to scour the walkway or driveway entry to see if there were more, but I was glad to see they had them up overlooking the recovery site.

You're right, it is the Wapsipinnicon. This memory thing sucks.

I hope the deer cams you saw were LE cams and not, you know, deer hunter cams. Although there can't be too many deer cams for me, I am the one who cheers when Bambi is shot.

 

[nikb]

<snipped for space>
Why? Because a lot of parents (including myself) don't WANT to raise my kids to be fearful of every single person they don't know. That is no way to live a life. I don't WANT my children to think that every man who says hello is a dirty old man who wants to abduct and rape them. What a horrific fear to put into a child.

But finding that balance between what is safe and what is not is where so many of us parents struggle. It's impossible to teach your children who to fear when the majority of sexual assaults/molestation etc. happen with people whom they've grown up with, are relatives, or people their parents and families know and trust.

Unfortunately, this is why I feel that LE may potentially have this one backwards as far as who all needs to be deeply investigated. I have a feeling that Lyric would be MORE apt to be a little more "schooled" in the world of what adults are capable of. Elizabeth may not. Maybe Lyric went along because Elizabeth "knew" this person, even though she herself didn't. Maybe she felt something was off...wanted to stick with Lizzy to "protect" her, but didn't say anything because Lizzy "knew" this person and went more than willingly, so she followed.

re: your first points, I so agree with you. I remember being at a department store one time and a Mom was trying to teach her kid to be basically terrified of every adult there. Her kid was maybe 5 or 6, and she walked what the Mom considered to be too close to the doors. The Mom went over and berated the poor kid for probably 20 minutes about how easy it would have been for someone to jump in the door and grab her, or take her on the way out the door, kidnap her, torture her, rape her, etc. She then started pointing at people in the store one by one and saying "he might hurt you" or "she might kill you!" It was horrible. The poor kid was sobbing and I wanted to run over and say "no I wouldn't kidnap and kill you!" (especially since I was one of the ones pointed out as a possible criminal). [ETA: and I didn't do anything except stand in line with my shirts I was purchasing, just to clarify; the mom was picking out people randomly and telling her daughter all the horrible things that person might do to her because she walked too close to the door]

Going back to Lizzie and Lyric... I have a feeling that it's really likely Lizzie grew up in a much more innocent world, whereas Lyric might've grown up more like what I described from that Mom's <ahem> "educational" moment in the department store. I agree with you and have thought for a long time it was likely that Lizzie may have been the more trusting girl, either because she knew someone at least from seeing them before, or she was just generally more inclined to trust people. I can see Lyric going along as the protector even if it was a situation she normally would have walked away from. All speculation as I don't know the girls, just going by what we've seen from the families. I hope LE is looking equally closely at both possibilities in terms of who the "target" might have been, if one of the girls was a target.

 

[Marilynilpa]

!

I just wanted to grab a quote talking about Smock and the investigation..


Thanks for the insider info!
From my understanding with a few "insiders" the DCI and FBI were handling the investigation. They would inform Smock of the investigation as a "courtesy".

The article right after Smock stepped down as fire chief and took a long vacation is BS....he spun that to make himself look good. Not the case.

Thanks for the insider info!

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Welcome back Grainne. IIRC, you are very knowledgeable regarding scent dogs. Could it have been possible that the dogs picked up the girls' scent at Meyers Lake from their bicycles. IIRC, I read that the dogs went back into the forested area of Maiden Lane after being at the location the bikes were found. I'm still not convinced the girls were actually at Meyer's Lake. Thank you for your input on this.

As I recall, the only information we had as to the behaviour of the dogs was from Aunt Tammy and she would not know the details of how the dogs were trained (they were flown in).

Yes, based on Aunt Tammy's information, it did sound like the dogs picked up the girls' scent and followed it into the little patch of woods. Those woods would have been an ideal environment for holding scent at that time because the shade and vegetation would provide the cooler, more humid conditions that cause scent to stick to the ground and last.

As I recall, there were theories floating around that the girls were abducted closer to home and their bikes dumped afterwards. A few people theorised that maybe the perp took a piece of clothing from each girl and dragged it into the wooded area to lay a false scent but I find this highly unlikely. Sure, it happens in books but I've only heard of a single case where someone deliberately laid false trails for scent dogs. In that case, it was an older man who was engaged in a dispute with his granddaughter over whether it was time for him to go into the old folks' home when what he wanted was to live out his days in the little cabin on the bayou where he'd been born and lived his entire life. That gentleman knew his granddaughter would call LE on him and suspected strongly they'd bring in SAR dogs, so he laid false trails in a deliberate attempt to throw the dogs off.

This was before the internet (mid-1980s) and did not get anything more than local media coverage, so I greatly doubt that it could have been the inspiration for a copy cat.

Considering that the FBI BAU's list of characteristics include knowledge of Meyer's Lake, I think it is most likely that the scent dogs did hit on scent at the park.

 

[dotr]

Just came across this news item and wondered if someone was paid to take the girls.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens...y-rep-offered-him-a-teen-sex-worker-1.3072589

"Hughie Tweedy is an Iowa farmer whose land lies right in the path of a new pipeline proposal. It's called the Dakota Access Pipeline and it would funnel crude from the Bakken oil fields in North Dakota through South Dakota and Iowa for processing in Illinois.

There's money for landowners who sign over rights to allow the pipeline company to get to work. But Tweedy's refusing all offers.

But when he told the pipeline representative that he's not interested in money, Tweedy says they tried to tempt him with something else.

"He offered me women," Tweedy tells As It Happens host Carol Off. "Not once, not twice, but three times. In the third time, a $1,200 teenage prostitute." Tweedy was told she was 18 years of age."

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Going back to Lizzie and Lyric... I have a feeling that it's really likely Lizzie grew up in a much more innocent world, whereas Lyric might've grown up more like what I described from that Mom's <ahem> "educational" moment in the department store. I agree with you and have thought for a long time it was likely that Lizzie may have been the more trusting girl, either because she knew someone at least from seeing them before, or she was just generally more inclined to trust people. I can see Lyric going along as the protector even if it was a situation she normally would have walked away from. All speculation as I don't know the girls, just going by what we've seen from the families. I hope LE is looking equally closely at both possibilities in terms of who the "target" might have been, if one of the girls was a target.

SBM

I think I recall that Lyric was raised by Drew and Heather from approximately 6 to 10 years old, at which time Wylma took custody of her. She was still living with Wylma when she was abducted. Somewhere there is a link to the court documents that list the various custody arrangements.

 

[nikb]

SBM

I think I recall that Lyric was raised by Drew and Heather from approximately 6 to 10 years old, at which time Wylma took custody of her. She was still living with Wylma when she was abducted. Somewhere there is a link to the court documents that list the various custody arrangements.

Yes I remember that too. I just always thought if she was exposed to her parents at all, she probably had more of a sense of the "rougher" side of things. I also always wonder about Aunt Tammy's "Stranger Danger" training. How detailed was it, and what kinds of situations did she get into? Was it as mild as "don't take candy from strangers" or was it as extreme as the situation I described earlier that I saw, where a woman was describing horrible possible scenarios to her young child? I guess it doesn't matter that much now, but it does make me wonder how the girls might have reacted in various scenarios depending on how well they thought they knew (or didn't know) the person/people.

 

[Copper]

For what it's worth on the subject of stranger danger...

I remember when I was in grade school, one time during recess a car pulled up along the road running by the school. A fellow student, who was ... less competent (/PC) ... went over to talk to whomever was in the car. Thankfully nothing happened and I'm don't even know if he was in any actual danger. But I'm certain that, at the time, myself and other students with me were thinking that our fellow going over to chat was maybe not the best course of action. This would have been when I was 8 or 9 years old, about the ages of Lyric and Lizzie. Stranger danger wasn't exactly pounded into me at home. But at the time, late 80s, it was something that I think my fellows and I were very aware of.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Yes I remember that too. I just always thought if she was exposed to her parents at all, she probably had more of a sense of the "rougher" side of things. I also always wonder about Aunt Tammy's "Stranger Danger" training. How detailed was it, and what kinds of situations did she get into? Was it as mild as "don't take candy from strangers" or was it as extreme as the situation I described earlier that I saw, where a woman was describing horrible possible scenarios to her young child? I guess it doesn't matter that much now, but it does make me wonder how the girls might have reacted in various scenarios depending on how well they thought they knew (or didn't know) the person/people.

Considering that Aunt Tammy did not live with either girl, worked full time and had her own family, I'd be surprised if she had enough time to make any truly useful impression on the girls. There's also the fact that she got a lot of media time in the first few weeks and, although she talked a lot, she didn't really communicate a whole lot, so my impression is that she's probably not the world's best teacher. I could easily be wrong but that's my impression.

Also, if the perp was someone who knew Seven Bridges from hunting, he would probably have a firearm (Iowa also has a bow season but I consider that less likely), which would make any discussion moot.

And really, just a good bluff can do it. I will never, ever forget the interview I saw with the friend who was with Jacob Wetterling when Jacob was abducted. That boy is now an adult but his story was so terrifying that I had nightmares. In that case, the perp didn't even show a firearm, just held one hand in his pocket and claimed to have one. He made Jacob's brother and friend run across the field, saying he'd shoot them if they turned around.

 

[Bootsctr]

Respectfully snipped by me

Unfortunately, this is why I feel that LE may potentially have this one backwards as far as who all needs to be deeply investigated. I have a feeling that Lyric would be MORE apt to be a little more "schooled" in the world of what adults are capable of. Elizabeth may not. Maybe Lyric went along because Elizabeth "knew" this person, even though she herself didn't. Maybe she felt something was off...wanted to stick with Lizzy to "protect" her, but didn't say anything because Lizzy "knew" this person and went more than willingly, so she followed.

This is exactly where I sit regarding Lizzy being the child most likely to stretch the boundaries and be more trusting. IIRC, Lyric and her cousin had previously the week before or two weeks before wandered away from Wylma's home in Waterloo. They called Dan to alert him that the girls were missing and before the cops were called the two girls showed up, or so the story goes. I'm sure they were punished, maybe more than a good chewing out, especially Lyric.

Evansdale was considered safer and Lizzy did wander maybe a little further than she told her parents. Lyric stuck with Lizzy as a protector and Lizzy probably felt a little braver when her older cousin was with her.

ETA: I think this person could have been known enough not to be considered a stranger. I feel it could be someone that perhaps helped Dan with his tree-trimming business, or through the church and the social activities there. Someone with not a steady job, a bounce around person, maybe a distant relative, or someone that hung with the uncle or the RSO cousin. It's someone the family would not point a finger at because they don't want to believe it. If they were questioned by Smock about this person they probably said no definitely not, and because of the friendship between the Collins and Smocks, Smock took them at their word and this person wasn't investigated any further.

Even though it was mainly Misty and Dan on the drug end, this family was intertwined because of drugs, i.e. Aunt Tammy and her kids, Uncle 'Miah and his friends. I think Heather and Drew would be eager to help someone in need and that someone could be exactly the person who would take advantage of their kindness by taking these girls from them.

Again, just hoping the "new eyes" are looking at everyone twice, three times, four times - whatever it takes. Alibis sometimes go bye-bye over time for a reason.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

ETA: I think this person could have been known enough not to be considered a stranger. I feel it could be someone that perhaps helped Dan with his tree-trimming business, or through the church and the social activities there. Someone with not a steady job, a bounce around person, maybe a distant relative, or someone that hung with the uncle or the RSO cousin. It's someone the family would not point a finger at because they don't want to believe it. If they were questioned by Smock about this person they probably said no definitely not, and because of the friendship between the Collins and Smocks, Smock took them at their word and this person wasn't investigated any further.

SBM

I'm not at all convinced that Smock would fall for such an obvious mistake and I am absolutely 100% certain that none of the FBI agents would make such a mistake. The FBI was called in the same day the girls went missing, so it's not like the Evansdale PD bumbled around making a mess of things for weeks before the FBI or DCI came in. Both agencies were there from the very beginning.

That's the whole problem with blaming the investigation for the lack of results. It was only the Evansdale PD until the girls' bikes were found. After that, the FBI came in and were extremely active in interviewing witnesses, following leads, etc. If the investigation was incompetent, then the FBI has to be considered incompetent. Which is a much more difficult argument to make than that one small town police department bungled it (which has already been found not to be the case).

I agree that the perp likely is known to the families but I think that it may be one of those things where the family wouldn't know the perp well enough to name them. Standard investigating protocol in missing persons cases is to get a list of everyone the victims and their families know... but who lists the cashier at the mini-mart whose name they don't know? Who lists the stock boy or the PepsiCo delivery driver who could have seen the girls repeatedly that summer?

 

[mnegri1973]

SBM

I'm not at all convinced that Smock would fall for such an obvious mistake and I am absolutely 100% certain that none of the FBI agents would make such a mistake. The FBI was called in the same day the girls went missing, so it's not like the Evansdale PD bumbled around making a mess of things for weeks before the FBI or DCI came in. Both agencies were there from the very beginning.

That's the whole problem with blaming the investigation for the lack of results. It was only the Evansdale PD until the girls' bikes were found. After that, the FBI came in and were extremely active in interviewing witnesses, following leads, etc. If the investigation was incompetent, then the FBI has to be considered incompetent. Which is a much more difficult argument to make than that one small town police department bungled it (which has already been found not to be the case).

I agree that the perp likely is known to the families but I think that it may be one of those things where the family wouldn't know the perp well enough to name them. Standard investigating protocol in missing persons cases is to get a list of everyone the victims and their families know... but who lists the cashier at the mini-mart whose name they don't know? Who lists the stock boy or the PepsiCo delivery driver who could have seen the girls repeatedly that summer?

I agree with you Grainnie Dhu. Just because Smock is friends the the Collins' doesn't mean he took everything they said at face value. This is a very small town. I have family who live there and have lived there for over 30 years. It's one of those small Iowa towns where everyone knows everyone.

Kids are trusting. I don't care how much you try to scare stranger danger into them. They think it's not going to be them. I'm a few years younger then both Johnny and Eugene. Noreen came to my hometown and spoke to us. One of my good friends growing up was Gene's cousin. I saw the pain that the Martin family went through up close, yet with all of that being around me, I still did not practice stranger danger as well as I could. Now once I had my own daughter I was over the top, being the over protective mama bear but that was because as an adult I understood the terror my parents felt when I was younger but it didn't sink in when I was Lizzy and Lyric's ages.

I personally think it's someone from the area. The girls might not of even knew them but because they grew up in a small town where everyone is friendly, I think it would have been easy for someone to strike up a chat and then once the girls are comfortable, lead them away willingly.

Hopefully with the girls, their family and friends won't have to wait decades for an answer.

Mel~





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Bootsctr]

SBM

I'm not at all convinced that Smock would fall for such an obvious mistake and I am absolutely 100% certain that none of the FBI agents would make such a mistake. The FBI was called in the same day the girls went missing, so it's not like the Evansdale PD bumbled around making a mess of things for weeks before the FBI or DCI came in. Both agencies were there from the very beginning.

That's the whole problem with blaming the investigation for the lack of results. It was only the Evansdale PD until the girls' bikes were found. After that, the FBI came in and were extremely active in interviewing witnesses, following leads, etc. If the investigation was incompetent, then the FBI has to be considered incompetent. Which is a much more difficult argument to make than that one small town police department bungled it (which has already been found not to be the case).

I agree that the perp likely is known to the families but I think that it may be one of those things where the family wouldn't know the perp well enough to name them. Standard investigating protocol in missing persons cases is to get a list of everyone the victims and their families know... but who lists the cashier at the mini-mart whose name they don't know? Who lists the stock boy or the PepsiCo delivery driver who could have seen the girls repeatedly that summer?

Thank you Grainne Dhu! You make an excellent point as always. Good to see you back in action! I agree the FBI would have discounted no one. We see cases end where the perpetuator was on "the list" from the beginning, and then there are those rare cases where the perpetuator was never on the radar.

P.S.: Run Bambi Run! Just kidding of course...

 

[alliemay]

The only time I felt less confident in the FBI was when they were the ones to state that the girls were alive. That was a very bold statement to make without them even knowing where the girls were. Every one is human, we all make mistakes.

 

[Marilynilpa]

The state&#8217;s Department of Public Safety said Friday the formation of the Child Abduction Response Team was prompted by the recent tragic abductions and murders of Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook-Morrissey in Evansdale and the abduction and murder of Kathlynn Shepard in Dayton.

http://m.ketv.com/news/child-abduction-response-team-formed-in-iowa/33050874

 

[Bootsctr]

The only time I felt less confident in the FBI was when they were the ones to state that the girls were alive. That was a very bold statement to make without them even knowing where the girls were. Every one is human, we all make mistakes.

Yes, that was the moment in the investigation I literally shook my head and said "huh?" And the FBI has made some mistakes...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fb...s-in-nearly-all-trials-before-2000/ar-AAbgTt6

And then there was this (not FBI, but still wth?):

http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/State-Crime-Lab-Fires-Worker-After-Noting-Errors-186401141.html

Argggh! This all brings me back to I think Lyric and Lizzy's case was bungled from the beginning...